Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

On 2017-08-04 08:05:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.

It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with double
decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

On 04/08/2017 09:44, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2017-08-04 08:05:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.

It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with double
decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).

Neil
Indeed - a quick search for coach overturned on google returns a
considerable number of examples. Some where the driver had also fallen
asleep...

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

In message , at 09:44:03 on Fri, 4 Aug
2017, Neil Williams remarked:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.

It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more

There's a lot more buses and coaches

with double decker buses/coaches than

Do you have a cite for one where it was speed, rather than a side effect
of the bus/coach having also left the road first?

it has from trams (once).

Sixty casualties. That's a whole bus-load in one go.
--
Roland Perry

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

In message , at 10:05:25 on Fri, 4 Aug
2017, Someone Somewhere remarked:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
Indeed - a quick search for coach overturned on google returns a
considerable number of examples.

All the ones I found in a quick search were either because they'd
swerved to avoid another vehicle, or they'd left the road and typically
toppled into a ditch. Neither of these is very likely to be echoed on a
tramway.
--
Roland Perry

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

On 04/08/2017 10:20, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:05:25 on Fri, 4 Aug
2017, Someone Somewhere remarked:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
Indeed - a quick search for coach overturned on google returns a
considerable number of examples.

All the ones I found in a quick search were either because they'd
swerved to avoid another vehicle, or they'd left the road and typically
toppled into a ditch. Neither of these is very likely to be echoed on a
tramway.

First link for coach overturned speeding on google is an accident from
2008 near Heathrow where the driver took the bend too quickly - 40
advisory limit, tachograph showed he was doing 55 in a heavily loaded
bus, and court was informed that over 45 given the circumstances would
cause the bus to become unstable.

3 killed, 60 injured - roughly the same number of casualties as the
Croydon tram crash.

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

In message , at 11:13:10 on Fri, 4 Aug
2017, Someone Somewhere remarked:
On 04/08/2017 10:20, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:05:25 on Fri, 4 Aug
2017, Someone Somewhere remarked:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't
fall asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses
toppling over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
Indeed - a quick search for coach overturned on google returns a
considerable number of examples.

All the ones I found in a quick search were either because they'd
swerved to avoid another vehicle, or they'd left the road and
typically toppled into a ditch. Neither of these is very likely to be
echoed on a tramway.

First link for coach overturned speeding on google is an accident from
2008 near Heathrow where the driver took the bend too quickly - 40
advisory limit, tachograph showed he was doing 55 in a heavily loaded
bus, and court was informed that over 45 given the circumstances would
cause the bus to become unstable.

He left the road (see above) and bounced off crash barriers. I suspect
that ironically it was the knock from the second barrier which flipped
the coach.

3 killed, 60 injured - roughly the same number of casualties as the
Croydon tram crash.

Agreed, he was driving far too fast, but he hadn't fallen asleep.
--
Roland Perry

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

On 04-Aug-17 9:44 AM, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2017-08-04 08:05:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.

It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with double
decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).

Neil

A bus and a tram met in Croydon, the bus derailed the tram.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...m-pile-up.html

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

In message , at 13:30:44 on Fri, 4 Aug 2017,
Tony Dragon remarked:
On 04-Aug-17 9:44 AM, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2017-08-04 08:05:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil

A bus and a tram met in Croydon, the bus derailed the tram.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-horrific-bus-
tram-pile-up.html

'We do not know at this stage know how many people were on board
the bus or the tram, nor how many people were in the car,' a
Metropolitan Police spokesman said.

Because even if we take our socks off, we can't count up to four or
five, being the likely maximum number of people in the car.

--
Roland Perry

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On 2017-08-04 08:05:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses
toppling over because they took a bend too fast.

It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).

Used to happen regularly with trams. The bend at the bottom of Cedars Road
into Lavender Hill was a favourite.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
 

On 04.08.2017 11:05 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
08:35:43 on Fri, 4 Aug 2017, Robin remarked:

Will the final report include their cost-benefit assessments to
support the recommendations or will they - like most coroners - take
the view that it's not their job to consider resources, and so
encourage the "no price is too high to save the life of ..." approach
common after any "disaster" on rails?

Having something to ensure nothing bad happens if your drivers fall
asleep [sorry - lose awareness] at the wheel seems pretty fundamental.

Why "pretty fundamental" for trams but not for buses or coaches - often
travelling at the same or greater speeds?

Such devices may offer value for money on trams but not on the road (eg
because the current technology means they are easier to make work on
rail than on road).

There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.

Are there a lot of instances of trams doing so, then? I must say that when
walking around L'viv, Istanbul, Bucharest, Moscow or Amsterdam - all with
larger tram networks than London (hell, than the UK I'd wager in most
cases), and in the case of L'viv at least extraordinarily low standards of
rail maintenance to boot - trams toppling like dominos at every corner do
not appear to be common...

In fact, I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...