Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-septe
mber.org, at 09:01:35 on Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

If there's no surface access, how did they get the tour-trains in there?

The surface access is in the former depot area, now turned into the tourist
train base and station. That's probably partly why it's so shallow, just
below the surface. The running line is deeper, a proper tube railway.

That doesn't answer the question: "how did they get the tour-trains in
there?"

Through the depot surface access, of course.

So they can use that for other trains too.

Not without dismantling the museum.

The museum's the other side of the road - or are you saying they've
entombed the tour-trains having built on the site of a former surface
access to the depot?

I'm talking about the Mail Rail exhibition/museum in the former depot under
the Mount Pleasant GPO site, not the entirely separate Postal Museum.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:44:49 on Sun, 11 Mar
2018, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.

Problems include lack of emergency exits.

From the site's FAQ:

"Evacuation requirements mean that access to the Mail Rail train ride is
restricted to those who are able to walk unaided on uneven terrain, in a
confined space for up to 100m before climbing 70 steps to the surface."

If the ride was extended to loop round the next station, there would need
to be an evacuation route through that station. The potential walk through
the tunnel would also be much longer, and uphill, to one or other station.

They'd probably also feel obliged to set up additional AV shows on the two
extra platforms traversed. The much longer ride would probably only be run
at less busy times, at a significantly higher price, and aimed at
enthusiasts, not families.

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 09:29:30 on Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:44:49 on Sun, 11 Mar
2018, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.

Problems include lack of emergency exits.

From the site's FAQ:

"Evacuation requirements mean that access to the Mail Rail train ride is
restricted to those who are able to walk unaided on uneven terrain, in a
confined space for up to 100m before climbing 70 steps to the surface."

If the ride was extended to loop round the next station,

Just so you know, I'm not advocating an extension.

there would need to be an evacuation route through that station.

Every station will have some kind of access to ground level.

The potential walk through
the tunnel would also be much longer, and uphill, to one or other station.

They'd probably also feel obliged to set up additional AV shows on the two
extra platforms traversed. The much longer ride would probably only be run
at less busy times, at a significantly higher price, and aimed at
enthusiasts, not families.

The AV shows aren't aimed at enthusiasts, so probably just a longer ride
would be sufficient.
--
Roland Perry

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 09:29:30 on Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

If there's no surface access, how did they get the tour-trains in there?

The surface access is in the former depot area, now turned into the tourist
train base and station. That's probably partly why it's so shallow, just
below the surface. The running line is deeper, a proper tube railway.

That doesn't answer the question: "how did they get the tour-trains in
there?"

Through the depot surface access, of course.

So they can use that for other trains too.

Not without dismantling the museum.

The museum's the other side of the road - or are you saying they've
entombed the tour-trains having built on the site of a former surface
access to the depot?

I'm talking about the Mail Rail exhibition/museum in the former depot under
the Mount Pleasant GPO site, not the entirely separate Postal Museum.

That's alongside the running tracks down to the tunnels, not in the way
of them. I suppose you noticed that some running tracks remained in the
waiting area?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-sept
ember.org, at 09:29:30 on Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:44:49 on Sun, 11 Mar
2018, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.

Problems include lack of emergency exits.

From the site's FAQ:

"Evacuation requirements mean that access to the Mail Rail train ride is
restricted to those who are able to walk unaided on uneven terrain, in a
confined space for up to 100m before climbing 70 steps to the surface."

If the ride was extended to loop round the next station,

Just so you know, I'm not advocating an extension.

there would need to be an evacuation route through that station.

Every station will have some kind of access to ground level.

They did when they were active stations on Mail Rail. And even then, they
were used by the workers on the railway, and probably emerged inside the
mail sorting area above. That may be owned by someone else now, and the
route to the tunnel sealed off.


The potential walk through
the tunnel would also be much longer, and uphill, to one or other station.

They'd probably also feel obliged to set up additional AV shows on the two
extra platforms traversed. The much longer ride would probably only be run
at less busy times, at a significantly higher price, and aimed at
enthusiasts, not families.

The AV shows aren't aimed at enthusiasts, so probably just a longer ride
would be sufficient.

The museum people who run Mail Rail probably wouldn't see it that way.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-sept
ember.org, at 09:29:30 on Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

If there's no surface access, how did they get the tour-trains in there?

The surface access is in the former depot area, now turned into the tourist
train base and station. That's probably partly why it's so shallow, just
below the surface. The running line is deeper, a proper tube railway.

That doesn't answer the question: "how did they get the tour-trains in
there?"

Through the depot surface access, of course.

So they can use that for other trains too.

Not without dismantling the museum.

The museum's the other side of the road - or are you saying they've
entombed the tour-trains having built on the site of a former surface
access to the depot?

I'm talking about the Mail Rail exhibition/museum in the former depot under
the Mount Pleasant GPO site, not the entirely separate Postal Museum.

That's alongside the running tracks down to the tunnels, not in the way
of them. I suppose you noticed that some running tracks remained in the
waiting area?

The waiting and film show area is on a false floor on top of the former
depot floor, complete with tracks.

In message
-septem
ber.org, at 09:58:59 on Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Recliner
remarked:
Just so you know, I'm not advocating an extension.

there would need to be an evacuation route through that station.

Every station will have some kind of access to ground level.

They did when they were active stations on Mail Rail. And even then, they
were used by the workers on the railway, and probably emerged inside the
mail sorting area above. That may be owned by someone else now, and the
route to the tunnel sealed off.

Or it may not. (Plus, it's commonplace for closed tunnels to maintain an
inspection access, even when the building on the surface has been
re-purposed).

The potential walk through
the tunnel would also be much longer, and uphill, to one or other station.

They'd probably also feel obliged to set up additional AV shows on the two
extra platforms traversed. The much longer ride would probably only be run
at less busy times, at a significantly higher price, and aimed at
enthusiasts, not families.

The AV shows aren't aimed at enthusiasts, so probably just a longer ride
would be sufficient.

The museum people who run Mail Rail probably wouldn't see it that way.

Just so you know, I'm not advocating an extension.
--
Roland Perry

In message 2132316179.542480534.571005.recliner.ng-
, at 17:05:04 on Sun, 11 Mar
2018, Recliner remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

Here's how they took out some of the remaining trains in 2011:

https://www.londonreconnections.com/...ving-the-mail-
rail/

And here's the crane: https://goo.gl/maps/EaqHVazHU3B2

The new trains went in that same way, much later.

This is an artist's impression of the refurbished depot, and it didn't
turn out quite like that. But I'm pretty sure I remember tracks in the
floor. The access shaft is at the far end of the lefthand section, which
like you said is set out as a museum, but had several bits of old
rolling stock which are probably not permanently blocking access.
Another site visit called for.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...678_72542677.j
pg

More pictures of the original depot (etc) he

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nonymous-door-
unremarkable-office-secret-network-railway-tunnels-century-billions-
letters-transported-London.html
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:04:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message 2132316179.542480534.571005.recliner.ng-
, at 17:05:04 on Sun, 11 Mar
2018, Recliner remarked:
Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?

Here's how they took out some of the remaining trains in 2011:

https://www.londonreconnections.com/...ving-the-mail-
rail/

Some quite thin chains given how heavy those locomotives must be.

Recliner wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Peter Able wrote:

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
I'm sure many people here have already visited and ridden on Mail Rail
museum, which opened last autumn. I finally got around to it last
week. This was my second visit to the railway, having been on an
organised visit about 40 years ago, when it was in full operation. Of
course, I didn't get a ride that time.

For anyone who's interested, but hasn't yet been, here are a few
observations and pictures:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157664534713587

- You still need to book in advance, but only a few days. You must
book tickets for a particular, timed train, and turn up 10 mins
before.

- They normally run one of the two new trains Mon-Fri (services every
20 mins), and both at weekends (services every 10 mins).

- The staff told me it's better to come on a weekday, as it's much
quieter (fewer rampaging kids).

- The museum entrance is very discreet, and it's easy to walk right
past it. They've had to put a little sign on the pavement to identify
it.

- There are lockers in the entrance, which are worth using, as bags
can't be taken on the cramped train. There is also an unlocked cage on
the platform.

- The exhibition and tourist train platform are in the old depot,
which is very close to the surface. It's only one flight of stairs
down, so most people won't need the lift.

- The exhibition in the old depot is interesting, and includes a
virtual reality viewer of how it used to be. The can swing the screen
round, zooming in and out and even seeing through a wall. There are
several items of rolling stock to look at, and various other displays,
confusingly including the main line TPO Bag Exchange catcher nets and
mast, as seen on the Night Mail film. It could fool people into
thinking that there were used on Mail Rail.

- The train ride lasts 15 minutes, including two stops in the Mount
Pleasant station for audio-visual shows.

- The distance covered is small. Basically, you never leave Mount
Pleasant, starting out in the deport to the north west of the main
station, passing through the station, looping round immediately after
passing through the platform, and then returning through the other
platform.

- The trains are battery-powered, and are charged overnight. They do
up to 19 circuits in a day, which one charge can manage.

- The driver and controller alternate roles. They told me that it's
boring being the controller on a one-train day, and they much prefer
driving (who wouldn't?). There's also someone to open and close the
train doors and canopies, and to flip the tram-style seat backs.

- The clearance between the trains and the tunnels is very small in
places. Obviously the doors and canopies can't be opened during the
ride (the driver warns you that the train will stop if you put too
much pressure on them).

- They told me that the rest of the railway is still owned and
maintained by the Royal Mail. There is at least the theoretical
possibility of the museum trains doing a longer circuit, perhaps to
the next station, but there appear to be no current plans for such an
expansion. It would obviously need Royal Mail's agreement, and there
would be a significant costs. The current trains may not have the
battery capacity for the extra distances involved.



Problems include lack of emergency exits.

True

Additionally the conductor rail has to be removed to allow the passenger
train to run; this is not a problem in itself but it does prevent future
demonstrations of automatic trains (something I'd love to see, but I
don't
know if it's on anyone's agenda) if you remove too much of it.

I didn't know the line had been used for trials of automatic trains? How
would they get them up and down, given that the old depot can no longer be
used for surface access?


In the sense that there was no driver on its trains, I guess that the POLR
was "automatic"?

I think 'remote controlled' would be more accurate. For most of its life,
it was fully manual, but it had computer controlled signalling and train
control towards the end. But the trains were still 'dumb'.


On plain line (ie between the stations), was there one section, or were
there relays maintaining a dead section behind each powered train?

They were multi-section. Sections were only switched on when there was a
train to be powered in or approaching them. I assume that the previous
section was automatically switched off when the next section was turned on.
There's a simple simulator of the process in the museum: you manually
switch sections in and out, to move the miniature train forward.


Apart from having drivers, the new trains have one other difference:
they're reversible. The old trains only ever ran forwards, but the new ones
reverse on every journey, so they have cabs at each end.



The 'dumb' units are double-ended AFAIK, from photographs and the one I've
seen for real (NRM, York). Also the system had reversing sidings...

I think the battery locos were needed to move stabled double-ended units
out of sidings. When under power, the units only moved forwards, with the
voltage determining how fast. Perhaps the definition of 'forwards' could be
changed during a depot visit (so trains could move under their own power in
and out of the depot).


Four of the stations had sidings-suitable-for-reversing, as well as loops.
I don't know the details, and I haven't yet visited the PO museum, so I may
well be wrong, but it seems unlikely that all of them were provided solely
for stabling of engineering trains; I'm pretty sure that the battery locos
weren't allowed out during normal traffic hours because they weren't part
of the 'signalling' system (presence or lack of line voltage).

Perhaps a negative voltage could be applied to the siding to get the train
back into the platform in order for its direction to be switched?

Edit: from another post in this thread,
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/in-pictures-moving-the-mail-rail/
has a close up of one of the power units. It has a handle, behind which is
a plate which reads 'point handle in direction for running'.

Stations had reversing loops (like the Northern line at Kennington), which
were used to turn in-service trains. The museum trains use the loop just to
the east of Mount Pleasant station.


Correct.

Stations were on humps (like the nearby Central line), and the line voltage
was lower on the sections just before stations, so trains automatically
slowed down as they approached the platform. Station platform lines were
split into multiple sections, with crossovers between sections, to the
parallel through line. So three separate short trains could be
loaded/unloaded at once, while through trains non-stopped the station.


Only Mount Pleasant had that many crossovers. Some of the others didn't
have any crossovers at all, others had just two platform sections.

I'm not sure if the brakes were automatically applied when not under power,
but I think they must have been.


AFAIK they were.


Anna Noyd-Dryver