Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/c...033487.article

--
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Organisation. Ornette Coleman. Other Lives. Out Of Focus. Outkast.

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

In message , at 04:12:03 on Wed, 25 Jul
2018, Basil Jet remarked:

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/c...rail/crossrail
-breaks-budget-by-590m/10033487.article

Pushing the funding envelope!

Enquiring minds wish to know whether its launch in December will be
delayed until next May as a result of the timetable-freeze.

ps I note the lowercase "line" in "Elizabeth line".
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

Basil Jet wrote:

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/c...033487.article


No surprise that the rumours of overspends are true, but it's interesting
that the final spend will actually be below the original budget:


Crossrail will come in £590m over its original £14.8bn budget, the
government has confirmed.

…

The first budget agreed for the Crossrail scheme was set at £15.9bn back in
2007.

Following a Comprehensive Spending Review in 2010, this was reduced to
£14.8bn. Of this spend, Crossrail is responsible for £12.5bn of works,
while Network Rail is responsible for £2.3bn

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

In message , at 06:59:20 on Wed, 25 Jul 2018,
Recliner remarked:
Basil Jet wrote:


https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/c...srail/crossrai
l-breaks-budget-by-590m/10033487.article


No surprise that the rumours of overspends are true, but it's interesting
that the final spend will actually be below the original budget:

Is it being built to the original spec, though?

Crossrail will come in £590m over its original £14.8bn budget, the
government has confirmed.

The first budget agreed for the Crossrail scheme was set at £15.9bn back in
2007.

Following a Comprehensive Spending Review in 2010, this was reduced to
£14.8bn. Of this spend, Crossrail is responsible for £12.5bn of works,
while Network Rail is responsible for £2.3bn

--
Roland Perry

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 06:59:20 on Wed, 25 Jul 2018,
Recliner remarked:
Basil Jet wrote:


https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/c...srail/crossrai
l-breaks-budget-by-590m/10033487.article


No surprise that the rumours of overspends are true, but it's interesting
that the final spend will actually be below the original budget:

Is it being built to the original spec, though?

I'm not aware of anything that's been dropped or cut back. And the route
has been extended, from Maidenhead to Reading.

As an aside, although I'll be a beneficiary of the generosity, I can't see
a good reason for London Freedom Pass holders to get free travel all the
way to Reading. It seems to be an unnecessary give-away.


Crossrail will come in £590m over its original £14.8bn budget, the
government has confirmed.

The first budget agreed for the Crossrail scheme was set at £15.9bn back in
2007.

Following a Comprehensive Spending Review in 2010, this was reduced to
£14.8bn. Of this spend, Crossrail is responsible for £12.5bn of works,
while Network Rail is responsible for £2.3bn

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 25/07/18 09:01, Recliner wrote:


As an aside, although I'll be a beneficiary of the generosity, I can't see
a good reason for London Freedom Pass holders to get free travel all the
way to Reading. It seems to be an unnecessary give-away.

I'm happy with that too? But it reminds me of a question I've not had
clearly answered.
Last time I travelled from Stanmore (LU) to Gatwick Airport the ticket
machine said my Travelcard (actually a Freedom Pass) was valid to the
airport, but the staff said I would still need to buy an extension
ticket somewhere. Will my Freedom Pass now open the gates at Gatwick?

MikeR

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

Mike Roberts wrote:
On 25/07/18 09:01, Recliner wrote:


As an aside, although I'll be a beneficiary of the generosity, I can't see
a good reason for London Freedom Pass holders to get free travel all the
way to Reading. It seems to be an unnecessary give-away.

I'm happy with that too? But it reminds me of a question I've not had
clearly answered.
Last time I travelled from Stanmore (LU) to Gatwick Airport the ticket
machine said my Travelcard (actually a Freedom Pass) was valid to the
airport, but the staff said I would still need to buy an extension
ticket somewhere. Will my Freedom Pass now open the gates at Gatwick?

It's certainly not valid to Gatwick. You do need an extension ticket (or a
single from East Croydon — they cost the same). I'm not sure if extension
tickets can now be purchased from LU ticket machines, but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the test).

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 07:16:12 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
Enquiring minds wish to know whether its launch in December will be
delayed until next May as a result of the timetable-freeze.

I thought the bit of Crossrail that is scheduled to begin in December
is on dedicated track so doesn't need to coordinate a timetable change
with the rest of the network anymore than the Waterloo & City does.

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

David Walters wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 07:16:12 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
Enquiring minds wish to know whether its launch in December will be
delayed until next May as a result of the timetable-freeze.

I thought the bit of Crossrail that is scheduled to begin in December
is on dedicated track so doesn't need to coordinate a timetable change
with the rest of the network anymore than the Waterloo & City does.


I think that's correct. The only new track to open will be the central
core, accessed only by Abbey Wood trains.

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 25/07/18 10:22, Robin wrote:
On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

Then I hope somebody at TfL reads this and gets the UndergounD machines
to offer a BZ6 extension to Gatwick. There is no gate-line between
Stanmore and Gatwick on my preferred route. It has been a pain ever
since they closed the ticket office.

MikeR

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

In message , at 08:01:39 on Wed, 25 Jul
2018, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 06:59:20 on Wed, 25 Jul 2018,
Recliner remarked:
Basil Jet wrote:

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/c...srail/crossrai
l-breaks-budget-by-590m/10033487.article

No surprise that the rumours of overspends are true, but it's interesting
that the final spend will actually be below the original budget:

Is it being built to the original spec, though?

I'm not aware of anything that's been dropped or cut back.

Toilets at all the core stations (except Bond Street which never was
planned to have them for some reason). I expect there are many other
"cost cutting" reductions in the spec at stations through the core as
well.

And the route has been extended, from Maidenhead to Reading.

As an aside, although I'll be a beneficiary of the generosity, I can't see
a good reason for London Freedom Pass holders to get free travel all the
way to Reading. It seems to be an unnecessary give-away.

Wouldn't that have to be paid for by the non-London LAs en-route?

Is it possible to use a Freedom pass to Brentwood and Shenfield,
currently? (I'm not following those nuances at the moment).

--
Roland Perry

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 25/07/2018 11:48, Mike Roberts wrote:
On 25/07/18 10:22, Robin wrote:
On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the
test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

Then I hope somebody at TfL reads this and gets the UndergounD machines
to offer a BZ6 extension to Gatwick. There is no gate-line between
Stanmore and Gatwick on my preferred route. It has been a pain ever
since they closed the ticket office.


I'd rather [all] the machines at Network Rail stations started issuing
them. I could have sworn I'd used one at Victoria that did but
discovered last year they didn't. Given the length of the queue for the
ticket office I only caught my planned train thanks to a kind employee
sending me to one of the excess fares counters.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

In message , at 09:10:19 on Wed, 25 Jul
2018, Recliner remarked:
Enquiring minds wish to know whether its launch in December will be
delayed until next May as a result of the timetable-freeze.

I thought the bit of Crossrail that is scheduled to begin in December
is on dedicated track so doesn't need to coordinate a timetable change
with the rest of the network anymore than the Waterloo & City does.

I think that's correct. The only new track to open will be the central
core, accessed only by Abbey Wood trains.

OK, so that appears to be sufficiently air-gapped off at Abbey Wood
to mean TfL could run that service independently of Network Rail
potentially having to approve any of the timetable from Abbey Wood to
Paddington.

I presume we are all on the same page that NR has no influence over by
whom and when trains are run on that section?

The next round of 'more through running' hailed for May 2019 does
however require route knowledge from Paddington to Shenfield that didn't
previously exist.

GTR's May 2018 timetable flopped in part because the December 2017
timetable didn't include enough ECS or shadow-PAX through-running
route-knowledge services.

How are Tfl expecting to create a big enough route-knowledge base to run
the May 2019 service if the December 2018 lack-of-timetable change
scuppers all the expected Shenfield-Paddington route learning diagrams?
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 25/07/18 14:26, Roland Perry wrote:
OK, so that appears to be sufficiently air-gapped off at Abbey Wood
to mean TfL could run that service independently of Network Rail
potentially having to approve any of the timetable from Abbey Wood to
Paddington.

Operationally, yes. Is there any attempt to provide good connections
for passengers, or are services too frequent for that to be necessary?

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

In message , at 14:55:14 on Wed, 25 Jul
2018, Certes remarked:

OK, so that appears to be sufficiently air-gapped off at Abbey Wood
to mean TfL could run that service independently of Network Rail
potentially having to approve any of the timetable from Abbey Wood to
Paddington.

Operationally, yes. Is there any attempt to provide good connections
for passengers, or are services too frequent for that to be necessary?

The foot connections at places like Paddington are too tortuous for
anyone to claim that service A (from Abbey Wood) was ever planned to
connect with service B (west from Paddington on the main line).
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 25/07/2018 19:42, Clank wrote:
Robin Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 11:48, Mike Roberts wrote:
On 25/07/18 10:22, Robin wrote:
On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the
test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

Then I hope somebody at TfL reads this and gets the UndergounD machines
to offer a BZ6 extension to Gatwick. There is no gate-line between
Stanmore and Gatwick on my preferred route. It has been a pain ever
since they closed the ticket office.


I'd rather [all] the machines at Network Rail stations started issuing
them. I could have sworn I'd used one at Victoria that did but
discovered last year they didn't. Given the length of the queue for the
ticket office I only caught my planned train thanks to a kind employee
sending me to one of the excess fares counters.

That's a major regression if so - Southern ticket machines have sold boundary extensions since pretty much forever. I mean since the Connex SouthCentral days level of forever.


Just asked 'er indoors and she's had the same experience with the
machine at Victoria.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:01:39 on Wed, 25 Jul
2018, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 06:59:20 on Wed, 25 Jul 2018,
Recliner remarked:
Basil Jet wrote:

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/c...srail/crossrai
l-breaks-budget-by-590m/10033487.article

No surprise that the rumours of overspends are true, but it's interesting
that the final spend will actually be below the original budget:

Is it being built to the original spec, though?

I'm not aware of anything that's been dropped or cut back.

Toilets at all the core stations (except Bond Street which never was
planned to have them for some reason). I expect there are many other
"cost cutting" reductions in the spec at stations through the core as
well.

And the route has been extended, from Maidenhead to Reading.

As an aside, although I'll be a beneficiary of the generosity, I can't see
a good reason for London Freedom Pass holders to get free travel all the
way to Reading. It seems to be an unnecessary give-away.

Wouldn't that have to be paid for by the non-London LAs en-route?

Is it possible to use a Freedom pass to Brentwood and Shenfield,
currently? (I'm not following those nuances at the moment).

Yup, Freedom Passes are valid on TfL Rail trains only to Shenfield. It's
similar to the situation at Watford Junction, to which Freedom Passes are
valid on LO services only.

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

Robin Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 19:42, Clank wrote:
Robin Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 11:48, Mike Roberts wrote:
On 25/07/18 10:22, Robin wrote:
On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the
test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

Then I hope somebody at TfL reads this and gets the UndergounD machines
to offer a BZ6 extension to Gatwick. There is no gate-line between
Stanmore and Gatwick on my preferred route. It has been a pain ever
since they closed the ticket office.


I'd rather [all] the machines at Network Rail stations started issuing
them. I could have sworn I'd used one at Victoria that did but
discovered last year they didn't. Given the length of the queue for the
ticket office I only caught my planned train thanks to a kind employee
sending me to one of the excess fares counters.

That's a major regression if so - Southern ticket machines have sold boundary extensions since pretty much forever. I mean since the Connex SouthCentral days level of forever.


Just asked 'er indoors and she's had the same experience with the
machine at Victoria.

Weird; they've reprogrammed or replaced them, then. Since Connex days it's been (digging deep into memory) press small "tickets from another station" button on the first screen, then start typing "bou...", and the various boundary options appear as starting stations.

--

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

Robin Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 11:48, Mike Roberts wrote:
On 25/07/18 10:22, Robin wrote:
On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the
test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

Then I hope somebody at TfL reads this and gets the UndergounD machines
to offer a BZ6 extension to Gatwick. There is no gate-line between
Stanmore and Gatwick on my preferred route. It has been a pain ever
since they closed the ticket office.


I'd rather [all] the machines at Network Rail stations started issuing
them. I could have sworn I'd used one at Victoria that did but
discovered last year they didn't. Given the length of the queue for the
ticket office I only caught my planned train thanks to a kind employee
sending me to one of the excess fares counters.

That's a major regression if so - Southern ticket machines have sold boundary extensions since pretty much forever. I mean since the Connex SouthCentral days level of forever.

--

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 25/07/2018 19:42, Clank wrote:
Robin Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 11:48, Mike Roberts wrote:
On 25/07/18 10:22, Robin wrote:
On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the
test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

Then I hope somebody at TfL reads this and gets the UndergounD machines
to offer a BZ6 extension to Gatwick. There is no gate-line between
Stanmore and Gatwick on my preferred route. It has been a pain ever
since they closed the ticket office.


I'd rather [all] the machines at Network Rail stations started issuing
them. I could have sworn I'd used one at Victoria that did but
discovered last year they didn't. Given the length of the queue for the
ticket office I only caught my planned train thanks to a kind employee
sending me to one of the excess fares counters.

That's a major regression if so - Southern ticket machines have sold boundary extensions since pretty much forever.

Many (all?) Southern ticket machines have been replaced in the past year
or so, and now don't seem to have a start from elsewhere option.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 25/07/2018 20:58, Clank wrote:
Robin Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 19:42, Clank wrote:
Robin Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 11:48, Mike Roberts wrote:
On 25/07/18 10:22, Robin wrote:
On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the
test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

Then I hope somebody at TfL reads this and gets the UndergounD machines
to offer a BZ6 extension to Gatwick. There is no gate-line between
Stanmore and Gatwick on my preferred route. It has been a pain ever
since they closed the ticket office.


I'd rather [all] the machines at Network Rail stations started issuing
them. I could have sworn I'd used one at Victoria that did but
discovered last year they didn't. Given the length of the queue for the
ticket office I only caught my planned train thanks to a kind employee
sending me to one of the excess fares counters.

That's a major regression if so - Southern ticket machines have sold boundary extensions since pretty much forever. I mean since the Connex SouthCentral days level of forever.


Just asked 'er indoors and she's had the same experience with the
machine at Victoria.

Weird; they've reprogrammed or replaced them, then. Since Connex days it's been (digging deep into memory) press small "tickets from another station" button on the first screen, then start typing "bou...", and the various boundary options appear as starting stations.


Thanks, I'll try that next time I'm there. It is certainly all that's
needed on the LO machines.

We both (separately) sought help from staff at Victoria who told us it
couldn't be done. But that sadly probably counts for little.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

Arthur Figgis Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 19:42, Clank wrote:
Robin Wrote in message:
On 25/07/2018 11:48, Mike Roberts wrote:
On 25/07/18 10:22, Robin wrote:
On 25/07/2018 09:43, Recliner wrote:

but I've been told
they are available from LO ticket machines (I've not put it to the
test).

Yep, the "new" (couple of years ago?) LO machines sell tickets from
Boundary Zone 6 (or 5,4,...) to ....

Then I hope somebody at TfL reads this and gets the UndergounD machines
to offer a BZ6 extension to Gatwick. There is no gate-line between
Stanmore and Gatwick on my preferred route. It has been a pain ever
since they closed the ticket office.


I'd rather [all] the machines at Network Rail stations started issuing
them. I could have sworn I'd used one at Victoria that did but
discovered last year they didn't. Given the length of the queue for the
ticket office I only caught my planned train thanks to a kind employee
sending me to one of the excess fares counters.

That's a major regression if so - Southern ticket machines have sold boundary extensions since pretty much forever.

Many (all?) Southern ticket machines have been replaced in the past year
or so, and now don't seem to have a start from elsewhere option.

Good Lord, that country really does seem to be on a relentless march backwards in all respects. I'm sure Robin is right, then.

A particularly insane regression in London where I'd hazard to guess the vast majority of regular travellers have some kind of zonal season ticket and will almost never actually be starting their fare (as opposed to journey) from one of the terminals when they go out of town. Or wouldn't be if they realised the railways were fiddling them, anyway.

--

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 26/07/2018 11:45, Clank wrote:

A particularly insane regression in London where I'd hazard to guess
the vast majority of regular travellers have some kind of zonal
season ticket

Can we assume that, in a world of Oyster, contactless, point-to-point
tickets where they still exist being cheaper than zonal tickets, and a
wider political desire to one day do away with season tickets?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On 26/07/2018 17:36, Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 26/07/2018 11:45, Clank wrote:

A particularly insane regression in London where I'd hazard to guess
the vast majority of regular travellers have some kind of zonal
season ticket

Can we assume that, in a world of Oyster, contactless, point-to-point
tickets where they still exist being cheaper than zonal tickets, and a
wider political desire to one day do away with season tickets?


I don't think season tickets are going away anytime soon.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

Arthur Figgis Wrote in message:
On 26/07/2018 11:45, Clank wrote:

A particularly insane regression in London where I'd hazard to guess
the vast majority of regular travellers have some kind of zonal
season ticket

Can we assume that, in a world of Oyster, contactless, point-to-point
tickets where they still exist being cheaper than zonal tickets, and a
wider political desire to one day do away with season tickets?

Granted it's been a while since I was living in London, but my annual Gold Card was loaded onto my Oyster, and since as far as I'm aware they haven't implemented annual capping I'm going to guess most commuters still do the same.


--

Crossrail GBP590m over budget
 

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 11:58:01 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

Toilets at all the core stations (except Bond Street which never was
planned to have them for some reason).

Charging for toiltes could have been a source of revenue.

--
jhk