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City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
Graeme Wall wrote:
Battery buses here in Guildford seem to cope with the hills with no problems. They've just been introduced on the park and ride services which all involve climbing hills many times a day. Electric buses are better for hills than diesel ones - they can regenerate on the way down, instead of using friction braking. Saves energy and reduces particulate emissions from brake pads. I've used the BYD P&R buses in Nottingham which are electric - seem nippier than diesel too. Nice that the Guildford ones are built by Alexander Dennis in Guildford. Depending on the street layout, it might be feasible to fit trolley wires to key thoroughfares (think Oxford Street) and have the buses run on battery on non-wired parts of the route. That would reduce the size of battery they have to drag around, and so the weight and cost. Theo |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
Theo wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: Battery buses here in Guildford seem to cope with the hills with no problems. They've just been introduced on the park and ride services which all involve climbing hills many times a day. Electric buses are better for hills than diesel ones - they can regenerate on the way down, instead of using friction braking. Saves energy and reduces particulate emissions from brake pads. Yes, that's a very good point. I've used the BYD P&R buses in Nottingham which are electric - seem nippier than diesel too. Nice that the Guildford ones are built by Alexander Dennis in Guildford. The London ones are too. I think Dennis is BYD's local partner. Depending on the street layout, it might be feasible to fit trolley wires to key thoroughfares (think Oxford Street) and have the buses run on battery on non-wired parts of the route. That would reduce the size of battery they have to drag around, and so the weight and cost. Yes, good idea. |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
On 19/01/2019 21:24, Theo wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: Battery buses here in Guildford seem to cope with the hills with no problems. They've just been introduced on the park and ride services which all involve climbing hills many times a day. Electric buses are better for hills than diesel ones - they can regenerate on the way down, instead of using friction braking. Saves energy and reduces particulate emissions from brake pads. I've used the BYD P&R buses in Nottingham which are electric - seem nippier than diesel too. Nice that the Guildford ones are built by Alexander Dennis in Guildford. Depending on the street layout, it might be feasible to fit trolley wires to key thoroughfares (think Oxford Street) and have the buses run on battery on non-wired parts of the route. That would reduce the size of battery they have to drag around, and so the weight and cost. That would make the tourist areas look like crap. It's better and cheaper to have charging pads in the road at termini and other lengthy stops. This was, and presumably still is, used on bus route 69 with charging pads at Canning Town and Walthamstow. https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2017/3271 -- Basil Jet - Current favourite song... What by Bruce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtJEAud9vao |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
On 19/01/2019 22:17, Recliner wrote:
Theo wrote: Graeme Wall wrote: Battery buses here in Guildford seem to cope with the hills with no problems. They've just been introduced on the park and ride services which all involve climbing hills many times a day. Electric buses are better for hills than diesel ones - they can regenerate on the way down, instead of using friction braking. Saves energy and reduces particulate emissions from brake pads. Yes, that's a very good point. I've used the BYD P&R buses in Nottingham which are electric - seem nippier than diesel too. Nice that the Guildford ones are built by Alexander Dennis in Guildford. The London ones are too. I think Dennis is BYD's local partner. Depending on the street layout, it might be feasible to fit trolley wires to key thoroughfares (think Oxford Street) and have the buses run on battery on non-wired parts of the route. That would reduce the size of battery they have to drag around, and so the weight and cost. Yes, good idea. Though you then have the weight and cost of the on-board electrical euipment to convert the trolley voltage to whatever the batteries supply. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 19/01/2019 22:17, Recliner wrote: Theo wrote: Graeme Wall wrote: Battery buses here in Guildford seem to cope with the hills with no problems. They've just been introduced on the park and ride services which all involve climbing hills many times a day. Electric buses are better for hills than diesel ones - they can regenerate on the way down, instead of using friction braking. Saves energy and reduces particulate emissions from brake pads. Yes, that's a very good point. I've used the BYD P&R buses in Nottingham which are electric - seem nippier than diesel too. Nice that the Guildford ones are built by Alexander Dennis in Guildford. The London ones are too. I think Dennis is BYD's local partner. Depending on the street layout, it might be feasible to fit trolley wires to key thoroughfares (think Oxford Street) and have the buses run on battery on non-wired parts of the route. That would reduce the size of battery they have to drag around, and so the weight and cost. Yes, good idea. Though you then have the weight and cost of the on-board electrical euipment to convert the trolley voltage to whatever the batteries supply. Presumably it would simply act as a battery charger, using the same voltage as the depot charger? |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: On 19/01/2019 22:17, Recliner wrote: Theo wrote: Graeme Wall wrote: Battery buses here in Guildford seem to cope with the hills with no problems. They've just been introduced on the park and ride services which all involve climbing hills many times a day. Electric buses are better for hills than diesel ones - they can regenerate on the way down, instead of using friction braking. Saves energy and reduces particulate emissions from brake pads. Yes, that's a very good point. I've used the BYD P&R buses in Nottingham which are electric - seem nippier than diesel too. Nice that the Guildford ones are built by Alexander Dennis in Guildford. The London ones are too. I think Dennis is BYD's local partner. Depending on the street layout, it might be feasible to fit trolley wires to key thoroughfares (think Oxford Street) and have the buses run on battery on non-wired parts of the route. That would reduce the size of battery they have to drag around, and so the weight and cost. Yes, good idea. Though you then have the weight and cost of the on-board electrical euipment to convert the trolley voltage to whatever the batteries supply. Presumably it would simply act as a battery charger, using the same voltage as the depot charger? For electric cars, the “fast charger” supplies DC at about 500 V. For a larger bus sized battery an increase to perhaps 650 V might be sensible. Guess what trolley buses run on? Robin |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
bob wrote:
Recliner wrote: Graeme Wall wrote: On 19/01/2019 22:17, Recliner wrote: Theo wrote: Graeme Wall wrote: Battery buses here in Guildford seem to cope with the hills with no problems. They've just been introduced on the park and ride services which all involve climbing hills many times a day. Electric buses are better for hills than diesel ones - they can regenerate on the way down, instead of using friction braking. Saves energy and reduces particulate emissions from brake pads. Yes, that's a very good point. I've used the BYD P&R buses in Nottingham which are electric - seem nippier than diesel too. Nice that the Guildford ones are built by Alexander Dennis in Guildford. The London ones are too. I think Dennis is BYD's local partner. Depending on the street layout, it might be feasible to fit trolley wires to key thoroughfares (think Oxford Street) and have the buses run on battery on non-wired parts of the route. That would reduce the size of battery they have to drag around, and so the weight and cost. Yes, good idea. Though you then have the weight and cost of the on-board electrical euipment to convert the trolley voltage to whatever the batteries supply. Presumably it would simply act as a battery charger, using the same voltage as the depot charger? For electric cars, the “fast charger” supplies DC at about 500 V. For a larger bus sized battery an increase to perhaps 650 V might be sensible. Guess what trolley buses run on? Exactly |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
Basil Jet wrote:
That would make the tourist areas look like crap. It's better and cheaper to have charging pads in the road at termini and other lengthy stops. This was, and presumably still is, used on bus route 69 with charging pads at Canning Town and Walthamstow. https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2017/3271 They seem to manage tram wires in Princes Street. And indeed in many Continental historic centres. You could of course wire less touristy parts - most cities have main thoroughfares where buses are concentrated. The trouble with inductive charging is you can get much less power transfer than a wired connection, and it's less efficient. I wonder how much the no. 69 runs on electric, and how much it's a pure diesel bus? goes digging 57% in EV mode - not bad: https://www.lowcvp.org.uk/assets/pre...ald,%20TfL.pdf Although 16kW isn't that great for charge power. Theo |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
On 20/01/2019 12:44, Theo wrote:
Basil Jet wrote: That would make the tourist areas look like crap. It's better and cheaper to have charging pads in the road at termini and other lengthy stops. This was, and presumably still is, used on bus route 69 with charging pads at Canning Town and Walthamstow. https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2017/3271 They seem to manage tram wires in Princes Street. And indeed in many Continental historic centres. You could of course wire less touristy parts - most cities have main thoroughfares where buses are concentrated. The trouble with inductive charging is you can get much less power transfer than a wired connection, and it's less efficient. I wonder how much the no. 69 runs on electric, and how much it's a pure diesel bus? goes digging 57% in EV mode - not bad: https://www.lowcvp.org.uk/assets/pre...ald,%20TfL.pdf Although 16kW isn't that great for charge power. Okay, well put overhead on the bus terminus then, and make it overhead rails so it can't get blown down. Pretty much anything is better than electric wires down every main road in the city. -- Basil Jet - Current favourite song... What by Bruce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtJEAud9vao |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
On 21/01/2019 08:03, Basil Jet wrote:
On 20/01/2019 12:44, Theo wrote: Basil Jet wrote: That would make the tourist areas look like crap. It's better and cheaper to have charging pads in the road at termini and other lengthy stops. This was, and presumably still is, used on bus route 69 with charging pads at Canning Town and Walthamstow. https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2017/3271 They seem to manage tram wires in Princes Street.* And indeed in many Continental historic centres.* You could of course wire less touristy parts - most cities have main thoroughfares where buses are concentrated. The trouble with inductive charging is you can get much less power transfer than a wired connection, and it's less efficient. I wonder how much the no. 69 runs on electric, and how much it's a pure diesel bus? goes digging 57% in EV mode - not bad: https://www.lowcvp.org.uk/assets/pre...ald,%20TfL.pdf Although 16kW isn't that great for charge power. Okay, well put overhead on the bus terminus then, and make it overhead rails so it can't get blown down. Pretty much anything is better than electric wires down every main road in the city. As I say, the electric buses here seem to manage a full day on a fairly intensive service without needing more than an overnight charge at the depot. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
Graeme Wall wrote:
As I say, the electric buses here seem to manage a full day on a fairly intensive service without needing more than an overnight charge at the depot. It's certainly feasible to have 100% battery buses. They are just very expensive, and hence why they only show up when subsidised - Stagecoach, First et al are not buying them as the natural option instead of diesel buses. China has made good progress in this area, but with heavy government subsidies. It's a tradeoff whether more fixed infrastructure (charging at bus stations, route wiring) costs less than larger batteries in vehicles. I suspect that will depend on a case-by-case basis. Theo |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
In message , at 11:49:54 on Mon,
21 Jan 2019, Theo remarked: As I say, the electric buses here seem to manage a full day on a fairly intensive service without needing more than an overnight charge at the depot. It's certainly feasible to have 100% battery buses. They are just very expensive, and hence why they only show up when subsidised - Stagecoach, First et al are not buying them as the natural option instead of diesel buses. China has made good progress in this area, but with heavy government subsidies. It's a tradeoff whether more fixed infrastructure (charging at bus stations, route wiring) costs less than larger batteries in vehicles. I suspect that will depend on a case-by-case basis. Bear in mind also that the infrastructure to charge overnight includes extra grid feeds to provide the power to the garage/parking-lot. If the buses were running on power from overhead lines, not only is the demand spread over 16hrs rather than 8hrs, but it's likely that at least some could come from existing feeds for the overhead lines as they traverse the wider area. -- Roland Perry |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
On 21/01/2019 13:52, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:49:54 on Mon, 21 Jan 2019, Theo remarked: As I say, the electric buses here seem to manage a full day on a fairly intensive service without needing more than an overnight charge at the depot. It's certainly feasible to have 100% battery buses.* They are just very expensive, and hence why they only show up when subsidised - Stagecoach, First et al are not buying them as the natural option instead of diesel buses.* China has made good progress in this area, but with heavy government subsidies. It's a tradeoff whether more fixed infrastructure (charging at bus stations, route wiring) costs less than larger batteries in vehicles.* I suspect that will depend on a case-by-case basis. Bear in mind also that the infrastructure to charge overnight includes extra grid feeds to provide the power to the garage/parking-lot. If the buses were running on power from overhead lines, not only is the demand spread over 16hrs rather than 8hrs, but it's likely that at least some could come from existing feeds for the overhead lines as they traverse the wider area. Buses only working for 16 hours a day! In the provinces maybe. -- Basil Jet - Current favourite song... What by Bruce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtJEAud9vao |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
In message , at 07:00:30 on Tue, 22 Jan
2019, Basil Jet remarked: Bear in mind also that the infrastructure to charge overnight includes extra grid feeds to provide the power to the garage/parking-lot. If the buses were running on power from overhead lines, not only is the demand spread over 16hrs rather than 8hrs, but it's likely that at least some could come from existing feeds for the overhead lines as they traverse the wider area. Buses only working for 16 hours a day! In the provinces maybe. Nah, out in the provinces it's more like 9hrs a day if you are lucky. And that's the bus *routes*. Individual buses aren't running 20hrs a day even if there are timetable slots for a few late night/early morning ones. However, the proposition that 16hrs is an underestimate makes my original point even more relevant! -- Roland Perry |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , MikeS writes Yes but trolley buses needed overhead wires. I remember the excitement in my schoolboy days when the bus came off the wires. I think it could move on its battery - about 10 yards on the flat. Indeed. I think the battery was just intended to prevent the bus finding itself stranded in situations when the arms could not reach (or did not have access to) any wires. I've only once seen a trolley bus on battery power, and I think it was when it had to leave its normal path for a short distance because of some roadworks. Batteries in the latter years were not always in the best condition and they were not charged at line voltage and depended on a motor generator to charge them and it wasn’t unknown for a driver to forget to turn this on Though the speed was only about 5 mph the range would have been a lot further than 10 yards when in good order, wasn’t there a garage somewhere that had an exit where trolleys had to run along an unwired street till they reached the wires on a route. Another probably apocryphal tale is that one on a driver training run was taken from the system on the South of the river and onto the Northern network and back again being driven on and off the woolwich ferry on its batteries. One moving on its batteries always looked a bit strange to my six year old eyes ,usually at Hammersmith. GH |
City plans to trial petrol and diesel ban
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:49:54 on Mon, 21 Jan 2019, Theo remarked: As I say, the electric buses here seem to manage a full day on a fairly intensive service without needing more than an overnight charge at the depot. It's certainly feasible to have 100% battery buses. They are just very expensive, and hence why they only show up when subsidised - Stagecoach, First et al are not buying them as the natural option instead of diesel buses. China has made good progress in this area, but with heavy government subsidies. It's a tradeoff whether more fixed infrastructure (charging at bus stations, route wiring) costs less than larger batteries in vehicles. I suspect that will depend on a case-by-case basis. Bear in mind also that the infrastructure to charge overnight includes extra grid feeds to provide the power to the garage/parking-lot. If the buses were running on power from overhead lines, not only is the demand spread over 16hrs rather than 8hrs, but it's likely that at least some could come from existing feeds for the overhead lines as they traverse the wider area. I wonder if any of the cable ducts that once supplied tram and trolley buses feeder cabinets and pillars are still in place and what condition they are in , some sections will no doubt have been destroyed or deteriorated too far or repurposed for communication cables. GH |
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