Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
--
Roland Perry

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 14:32:39 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.

Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

In message , at 14:53:04 on Thu, 6 Dec
2018, remarked:

"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.

Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.

Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.
--
Roland Perry

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:23:22 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:53:04 on Thu, 6 Dec
2018, remarked:

"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.

Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.

Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.

Its a reasonably important service so having dual sims should really have
been in the design. Ditto down at gatwick where - inexplicably - they dumped
a wired link from the control tower for a phone network data link to power
their information screens. Which then went down recently. Whatever shiny
suited salesmen sold them that pup was probably laughing all the way to the
wine bar after that.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and selfdriving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

Roland Perry wrote:
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.

I don't think that TfL regards the Countdown displays on bus stops as a
high priority system. In fact, I didn't think it was being rolled out any
further, and may have a limited life. TfL would rather passengers used
their phones to get the data.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self drivingcars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:52:18 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:23:22 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:53:04 on Thu, 6 Dec
2018, remarked:

"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.

Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.

Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.

Its a reasonably important service

I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self drivingcars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On 06/12/2018 17:07, David Walters wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:52:18 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:23:22 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:53:04 on Thu, 6 Dec
2018, remarked:

"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.

Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.

Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.

Its a reasonably important service

I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.

And the screens are not available anyway on many (majority of?) stops
across the whole TfL area.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self drivingcars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On 06/12/2018 17:58, MikeS wrote:
On 06/12/2018 17:07, David Walters wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:52:18 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:23:22 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:53:04 on Thu, 6 Dec
2018, remarked:

"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been
affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have
stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to
use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working
with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
Â*Â*Â* [Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.

Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.

Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if
one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.

Its a reasonably important service

I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.

And the screens are not available anyway on many (majority of?) stops
across the whole TfL area.


more than 19,000 stops;
2,500 Countdown signs;
TfL not paying for more due to lack of funds; but
you can pay for your own if you want to and have a site! See
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2018_02_00_appx_c._countdown_pamphlet.pdf

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self drivingcars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On 06/12/2018 16:48, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.

I don't think that TfL regards the Countdown displays on bus stops as a
high priority system. In fact, I didn't think it was being rolled out any
further, and may have a limited life. TfL would rather passengers used
their phones to get the data.

Citymapper was working fine today as usual (unless you had an O2 phone of course).

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 17:07:06 +0000, David Walters
wrote:

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:52:18 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
Its a reasonably important service

I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.

Not essential, but I think a more important requirement of the system
is for the bus operators and TfL to know where the buses are. And if
the buses are also using O2... Certainly there was no real-time for
my bus this morning. There's no reason for the two suppliers to be
the same, but it looks like they might be.

Even so, time between failures of telecomms networks is usually - or
should be - measured in decades.

Richard.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

In message , at 23:12:16 on
Thu, 6 Dec 2018, Richard remarked:
Its a reasonably important service

I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.

Not essential, but I think a more important requirement of the system
is for the bus operators and TfL to know where the buses are. And if
the buses are also using O2... Certainly there was no real-time for
my bus this morning.

It's unfortunate that the case-study the BBC News has chosen for this
outage is the TfL bus information - perhaps because one of their
journalists noticed it at first hand, or maybe they think their readers
could relate to it.

In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.
--
Roland Perry

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self drivingcars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

I have heard that "occasionally the buses get calls over the radio from PPI companies and the like using auto-diallers!"

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:07:59 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.

Lets hope car manufacturers arn't so stupid as to require an always-on
connection for self driving cars otherwise someone could just sit on a
motorway bridge with a jammer and cause chaos.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and selfdriving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 23:12:16 on
Thu, 6 Dec 2018, Richard remarked:
Its a reasonably important service

I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.

Not essential, but I think a more important requirement of the system
is for the bus operators and TfL to know where the buses are. And if
the buses are also using O2... Certainly there was no real-time for
my bus this morning.

It's unfortunate that the case-study the BBC News has chosen for this
outage is the TfL bus information - perhaps because one of their
journalists noticed it at first hand, or maybe they think their readers
could relate to it.

In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.

Do any self-driving cars depend, or plan to depend, on continuous, reliable
access to a data network? It sounds most improbable. How would they
operate at all on remote roads with no signal?

They will need periodic access to update their mapping data, report back to
base, or update software, but shouldn't need continuous access.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

In message , at 11:04:05 on Fri, 7 Dec 2018,
Recliner remarked:

Do any self-driving cars depend, or plan to depend, on continuous, reliable
access to a data network? It sounds most improbable. How would they
operate at all on remote roads with no signal?

They will need periodic access to update their mapping data, report back to
base, or update software, but shouldn't need continuous access.

It's been said that if in a situation of gridlock on a stretch of road,
the cars would communicate with each other to decide a priority to
proceed.

That's a more immediately real time situation than still importantly
attempting to avoid obstructions occurring at short notice such as RTAs,
and this week Network Rail closing the A10 level crossing at Littleport
for hours, so they could get machinery in place to fix a broken rail.
--
Roland Perry

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:07:53 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:04:05 on Fri, 7 Dec 2018,
Recliner remarked:

Do any self-driving cars depend, or plan to depend, on continuous, reliable
access to a data network? It sounds most improbable. How would they
operate at all on remote roads with no signal?

They will need periodic access to update their mapping data, report back to
base, or update software, but shouldn't need continuous access.

It's been said that if in a situation of gridlock on a stretch of road,
the cars would communicate with each other to decide a priority to
proceed.

Would they use the phone network or, much more probably, some sort of
short range digital radio?


That's a more immediately real time situation than still importantly
attempting to avoid obstructions occurring at short notice such as RTAs,
and this week Network Rail closing the A10 level crossing at Littleport
for hours, so they could get machinery in place to fix a broken rail.

I wonder if that sort of information could not also be broadcast like
traffic alerts are now?

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

In message , at 14:24:56 on
Fri, 7 Dec 2018, Recliner remarked:
It's been said that if in a situation of gridlock on a stretch of road,
the cars would communicate with each other to decide a priority to
proceed.

Would they use the phone network or, much more probably, some sort of
short range digital radio?

Local chatter on bluetooth? How would each vehicle authenticate itself
sufficiently well to act on its own initiative, if the ultimate control
was supposed to be in the [national] cloud?

That's a more immediately real time situation than still importantly
attempting to avoid obstructions occurring at short notice such as RTAs,
and this week Network Rail closing the A10 level crossing at Littleport
for hours, so they could get machinery in place to fix a broken rail.

I wonder if that sort of information could not also be broadcast like
traffic alerts are now?

Using what radio spectrum? Not O2 yesterday, obviously.
--
Roland Perry

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 03:52:18PM +0000, wrote:

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
Its a reasonably important service so having dual sims should really
have been in the design.

The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.

More important is the data link from bus to HQ so that HQ knows where
they are. That apparently went down too, and without that info the bus
service would have been a bit less efficiently managed. But only a bit.

--
David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat

Support terrierism! Adopt a dog today!

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Fri, Dec 07, 2018 at 07:07:59AM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.

Those would be the same commuters who can't show their tickets when the
train is in the middle of ruralistan. A problem that I have literally
never heard of.

My own experience of using such things is that you always have the
option to download the ticket to your device.

No doubt you'll now come up with some weird edge case, but in that case
I would assume that ticket inspectors would just wave people through if
they know that there's an outage.

--
David Cantrell

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 03:52:18PM +0000, wrote:

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
Its a reasonably important service so having dual sims should really
have been in the design.

The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.

Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

In message , at 10:09:43
on Mon, 10 Dec 2018, David Cantrell remarked:

In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.

Those would be the same commuters who can't show their tickets when the
train is in the middle of ruralistan. A problem that I have literally
never heard of.

My own experience of using such things is that you always have the
option to download the ticket to your device.

Not if there's an O2 outage at the time you'd be wanting to download it.
And of course if you are one of the people who has been repeatedly
assured that the 'best' way to get a ticket is to buy it[1] via an App
while walking to the station... no O2, no ticket.

And of course as a result there's a queue out of the door for both the
rarely-open ticket window and the machines. The 1tph train is due in 5
minutes.

No doubt you'll now come up with some weird edge case, but in that case
I would assume that ticket inspectors would just wave people through if
they know that there's an outage.

"The computer[aka barrier] says no" is a common issue at places like
Kings Cross where the staff appear to be untrained at anything, and T&C
for m-ticketing and e-ticketing are riddled with "if the tech is broken,
then tough ****" messages.

[1] Or indeed your station parking.
--
Roland Perry

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:22:41 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
And of course as a result there's a queue out of the door for both the
rarely-open ticket window and the machines. The 1tph train is due in 5
minutes.

With some clueless tourist or pensioner randomly pressing every button in
order to try and buy a ticket.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:47:48AM +0000, Mrs. Invalid-Address wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.

I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self drivingcars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On 11/12/2018 09:58, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:47:48AM +0000, Mrs. Invalid-Address wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.

I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.


www,bustimes.org

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote


Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.

I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.


www.bustimes.org

does this show live information?

I clicked away and 'due' never showed.

--
Mike D

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self drivingcars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

On 11/12/2018 17:28, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:

"Graeme Wall"Â* wrote


Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of
occasions.

I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.


www.bustimes.org

does this show live information?

Does round here


I clicked away and 'due' never showed.


Don't think it does that, just gives the "live" time.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Looking forward to when even more transport, and selfdriving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 11/12/2018 09:58, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:47:48AM +0000, Mrs. Invalid-Address wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.

I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.


www,bustimes.org


That could depend on the operator
2-3 years ago wandering around north Surrey 1 noticed that Tfl busses had
real time information but Surrey ones just had timetable information

Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 11/12/2018 09:58, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:47:48AM +0000, Mrs. Invalid-Address wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of
occasions.

I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.


www,bustimes.org

Hm,

The bus stop that I used to use as a kid (and wait many hours at because the
once every 10 minutes bus did not come for 40 minutes) is completely missing
from that site

tim