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-   -   Sadiq's looming poll tax moment (https://www.londonbanter.co.uk/london-transport/16714-sadiqs-looming-poll-tax-moment.html)

Recliner[_3_] December 9th 18 08:23 AM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9 172


Robin9 December 9th 18 10:42 AM

I'm unskilled at political prophesising so I won't try to predict
what will happen.

I've said many times that motorists are the sleeping tigers of
London politics and that if they ever wake up and recognise
what is going on, their unified reaction could sweep away
several dishonest, hypocritical politicians. As I've posted before,
if this Mayor or any of his predecessors had genuinely been
concerned about air pollution in London, they would have
stopped making our roads unfit for road vehicles.

In my neighbourhood, Whipps Cross Roundabout, which has
always done a splendid job of processing three large, constant
streams of traffic, is now being replaced by a complex system with . . . .
yes, oh so predictably . . . . numerous traffic lights. The increase in
traffic queues and air pollution will be horrendous.

Recliner[_3_] December 9th 18 12:25 PM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 11:42:57 +0000, Robin9
wrote:


I'm unskilled at political prophesising so I won't try to predict
what will happen.

I've said many times that motorists are the sleeping tigers of
London politics and that if they ever wake up and recognise
what is going on, their unified reaction could sweep away
several dishonest, hypocritical politicians. As I've posted before,
if this Mayor or any of his predecessors had genuinely been
concerned about air pollution in London, they would have
stopped making our roads unfit for road vehicles.

In my neighbourhood, Whipps Cross Roundabout, which has
always done a splendid job of processing three large, constant
streams of traffic, is now being replaced by a complex system with . . .
.
yes, oh so predictably . . . . numerous traffic lights. The increase in
traffic queues and air pollution will be horrendous.


Yes, I think Sadiq may be taking aim at a rather large, belligerent
target. It seems that far more motorists and vans will be affected by
this new charge than had been suggested. This looming charge (really,
more of a new tax) will be a pretty good way of getting Shaun Bailey
elected in 2020.

Sadiq only has to look at Paris today to get a feeling for what
happens when you alienate a lot of the population. Brits aren't as
violent, but they could still make like difficult for him.

Roland Perry December 9th 18 01:55 PM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 
In message , at 09:23:54 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Recliner remarked:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...don-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172


"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"

In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.

If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
--
Roland Perry

Recliner[_3_] December 9th 18 03:35 PM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:23:54 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Recliner remarked:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...don-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172


"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"

In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.

If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.


Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax. He'll
certainly be voted out if he doesn't back down in some way (either delay
it, have more exceptions, or focus only on much older vericles).

Even though I almost never drive inside the North and South Circulars these
days, I realise that the dealer that services my car is just inside it.
That would mean 2-3 days @ £12.50 a day would be incurred any time it needs
work, including the annual service.


Roland Perry December 9th 18 04:15 PM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 
In message , at 16:35:56 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:23:54 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Recliner remarked:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...don-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172


"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"

In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.

If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.


Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.


Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.

Of course, if I hadn't bought that Euro-4, someone else would have done,
so it's not changed the overall pollution potential at all!

He'll certainly be voted out if he doesn't back down in some way
(either delay it, have more exceptions, or focus only on much older
vericles).


Backdating to Euro-5 is the obvious parachute.

Even though I almost never drive inside the North and South Circulars these
days, I realise that the dealer that services my car is just inside it.
That would mean 2-3 days @ 12.50 a day would be incurred any time it needs
work, including the annual service.


Back in the day they were talking about a "congestion charge" for
Cambridge; a bit like the London one, but on a much smaller scale.

One of the reasons I opposed it was that as someone living [then] just
[maybe a few 100yds] outside the cordon, it would have been a stealth
tax on me ever going into the City.

People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.
--
Roland Perry

[email protected] December 10th 18 08:56 AM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:15:08 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:35:56 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Billy Bum Bandit No Mates remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:23:54 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Billy Bum Bandit No Mates remarked:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...don-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172

"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"

In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.

If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.


Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.


Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.


All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early which - if they're replaced - will released a whole
lot more pollution into the atmosphere. That and a huge rise in the number of
cloned and foreign plates being used inside the zone which coupled with the
total lack of traffic police these days will just lead to people taking the
****.

All this because of his dogmatic attachment to his no rise in fares policy
and the screwup that is crossrail.

People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.


Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an in/out
line you can avoid. Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave
it you'll still apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed)
and charged/fined.


Roland Perry December 10th 18 01:11 PM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 
In message , at 09:56:31 on Mon, 10 Dec
2018, remarked:
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:15:08 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:35:56 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Billy Bum Bandit No Mates remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:23:54 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Billy Bum Bandit No Mates remarked:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...don-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172

"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"

In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.

If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.

Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.


Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.


All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early


I really don't think anyone is going to scrap a 2013 car because of this
tax.

which - if they're replaced - will released a whole
lot more pollution into the atmosphere. That and a huge rise in the number of
cloned and foreign plates being used inside the zone which coupled with the
total lack of traffic police these days will just lead to people taking the
****.

All this because of his dogmatic attachment to his no rise in fares policy
and the screwup that is crossrail.

People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.


Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an in/out
line you can avoid.


And I was describing the Cambridge congestion charge, not London's

Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave it you'll
still apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed) and
charged/fined.


I was mainly addressing Recliner's comment that his car dealership was
just inside the [London] cordon. Which suggests he's starting just
outside.

While there does have to be some line drawn on the map, it's
disproportionate that someone whose errands takes them as little as
perhaps a mile inside on an irregular basis should be charged as much as
someone driving for hours inside.

Accidental experiments, in Cambridge again, appear to show that people
will go to considerable lengths to avoid paying quite small fees for
parking (or petrol at 1p/litre cheaper).

Getting back to other modes of transport for a moment, what if one of
the radial railways suffers a glitch, and people at a station just
inside the cordon where the trains have ground to a halt, start phoning
home (maybe one station beyond the cordon) for a lift, then this stealth
tax on the rescue mission is going to grate severely.
--
Roland Perry

Recliner[_3_] December 10th 18 01:33 PM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:11:04 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 09:56:31 on Mon, 10 Dec
2018, remarked:
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:15:08 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:35:56 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Billy Bum Bandit No Mates remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:23:54 on Sun, 9 Dec 2018,
Billy Bum Bandit No Mates remarked:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...don-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172

"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"

In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.

If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.

Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.

Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.


All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early


I really don't think anyone is going to scrap a 2013 car because of this
tax.

which - if they're replaced - will released a whole
lot more pollution into the atmosphere. That and a huge rise in the number of
cloned and foreign plates being used inside the zone which coupled with the
total lack of traffic police these days will just lead to people taking the
****.

All this because of his dogmatic attachment to his no rise in fares policy
and the screwup that is crossrail.

People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.


Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an in/out
line you can avoid.


And I was describing the Cambridge congestion charge, not London's

Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave it you'll
still apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed) and
charged/fined.


I was mainly addressing Recliner's comment that his car dealership was
just inside the [London] cordon. Which suggests he's starting just
outside.


The garage is perhaps a quarter of a mile inside the zone. I live a
few miles away, outside the zone. You don't get Jaguar main dealers in
every borough.


While there does have to be some line drawn on the map, it's
disproportionate that someone whose errands takes them as little as
perhaps a mile inside on an irregular basis should be charged as much as
someone driving for hours inside.

Accidental experiments, in Cambridge again, appear to show that people
will go to considerable lengths to avoid paying quite small fees for
parking (or petrol at 1p/litre cheaper).

Getting back to other modes of transport for a moment, what if one of
the radial railways suffers a glitch, and people at a station just
inside the cordon where the trains have ground to a halt, start phoning
home (maybe one station beyond the cordon) for a lift, then this stealth
tax on the rescue mission is going to grate severely.


Yes, there will be many such examples.

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.

[email protected]_48w.org December 10th 18 01:42 PM

Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
 
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:11:04 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:56:31 on Mon, 10 Dec
2018, remarked:
All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early


I really don't think anyone is going to scrap a 2013 car because of this
tax.


Not 2013 cars, but 10 year old cars maybe. Regardless they'd probably end up
selling them and this has a trickle down effect where somewhere along the line
a car gets scrapped that otherwise wouldn't have been.

Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an

in/out
line you can avoid.


And I was describing the Cambridge congestion charge, not London's


I know, just saying.

Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave it you'll
still apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed) and
charged/fined.


I was mainly addressing Recliner's comment that his car dealership was
just inside the [London] cordon. Which suggests he's starting just
outside.


Well as he likes to remind us, money is no object for him so coughing up
12.50 for the occasional service shouldn't be too onorous.

While there does have to be some line drawn on the map, it's
disproportionate that someone whose errands takes them as little as
perhaps a mile inside on an irregular basis should be charged as much as
someone driving for hours inside.


Agreed, but then the ultimate goal is to clear traffic off the roads and so
the more unfair it is the closer that goal will be met.

Accidental experiments, in Cambridge again, appear to show that people
will go to considerable lengths to avoid paying quite small fees for
parking (or petrol at 1p/litre cheaper).


Certainly.

Getting back to other modes of transport for a moment, what if one of
the radial railways suffers a glitch, and people at a station just
inside the cordon where the trains have ground to a halt, start phoning
home (maybe one station beyond the cordon) for a lift, then this stealth
tax on the rescue mission is going to grate severely.


Don't forget the stealth tax on the East London Line. The whole line is
zone 2 or 6 apart from shoreditch high street. Cynically put in zone 1 so
they can charge the maximum oyster fare and prevent west and north londoners
using the overground as a way to avoid paying for zone 1 on the tube to get to
the City or Canary wharf. Yes you could go to straford but that would be a hell
of a roundabout route.



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