evan wrote:
Sorry if this is an FAQ.

My partner has just been summonsed for fare evasion, for an
incident in November last year. She was worried about something
important, got on an R-route bus near Cannon St through the middle
door & forgot to get her pre-pay ticket (one of the hexagonal ones)
validated by the driver. She was asked for her ticket, realised
that she'd forgotten, apologised, showed the inspector her pre-pay
voucher & offered to pay a penalty fare. He was perfectly polite
but wouldn't take this, & took her name & address.

The magistrates' court summons came today, almost 6 months after the
incident & she is very upset. It is totally unlike her - she really
is very honest & actually had bought a book of prepay tickets not
long before. She's no previous convictions for anything whatsoever.
And she really did have a lot on her mind that day.

A couple of people have frightened her about this & said she can
get a fine of up to £1000 & a criminal record - it's the criminal
record bit she is worried about. Is this likely? (as far as I can
tell it's possible, but that's not the same thing). Also, anyone
any idea what the fine on a first offence might be?

According to a London Buses press release of 19 March 2004, which
announced an increase in the Penalty Fare on buses from £5 to £10:
"During the last 12 months alone London Buses has brought over 7,000
prosecutions, and issued 39,000 penalties. The average payment incurred
by prosecution is £100".

I don't understand why this wasn't dealt with by imposing a £10 penalty
fare. I can only assume that they've had a lot of fare evasion on that
route, and wanted a few prosecutions as a deterrent.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes
I don't understand why this wasn't dealt with by imposing a £10 penalty
fare.
Yes I thought I was alone in this thread at being surprised that it
wasn't dealt with in this way. In fact I thought that imposing a £10
penalty was the automatic way to deal with such cases.

I can only assume that they've had a lot of fare evasion on that
route, and wanted a few prosecutions as a deterrent.
That makes sense, I suppose, especially since the "honesty" policy of
not checking every ticket/pass now being adopted is so "foreign" to the
average UK passenger. Certainly up here on Midland Metro the fare
evasion before the introduction of conductors appeared to reach dizzying
proportions, if the number of people caught when they *did* do check was
anything to go by.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

I think it is a terrible waste of time and money and serves no real purpose.
People make mistakes, I have before and I think any londoner that uses
transport every single day will sympathise with this particular traveller.
They will look back at the time they thought their tc was valid and it
wasn't. It happens to people every single day and it seems that the only
difference between getting away with it and being prosecuted comes down to
luck and the discretion of the revenue protection officer. Why prosecute
people? I would have thought that the criminal justice system should only be
brought in where the person caught has be caught a number of times? If LT
want to recoup money why not simply employ more revenue protection officers,
I am sure they'll pay for themselves in the long run.


--
============
David Varnham

Sponsor me running the Windsor Half Marathon in September he
http://www.justgiving.co.uk/varnham
All sponsorship money goes to Mind.


"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
news
In message , Richard J.
writes
I don't understand why this wasn't dealt with by imposing a £10 penalty
fare.
Yes I thought I was alone in this thread at being surprised that it
wasn't dealt with in this way. In fact I thought that imposing a £10
penalty was the automatic way to deal with such cases.

I can only assume that they've had a lot of fare evasion on that
route, and wanted a few prosecutions as a deterrent.
That makes sense, I suppose, especially since the "honesty" policy of
not checking every ticket/pass now being adopted is so "foreign" to the
average UK passenger. Certainly up here on Midland Metro the fare
evasion before the introduction of conductors appeared to reach dizzying
proportions, if the number of people caught when they *did* do check was
anything to go by.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

There are all types of evasion and without going right into this particular
case there is a lot of evasion on the tubes and buses.

The current estimate (this is only what I heard) is around £45 million a
year.

Ascertaining the difference between a genuine mistake and deliberate
avoidance is tricky but that is why we have the protection of the
Magistrates Court who can make the ultimate decision. Many countries on the
continent have a penalty system like parking fines or speed cameras. You
can end up with a spot fine of around £100.

Steve

"David Varnham" wrote in message
...
I think it is a terrible waste of time and money and serves no real
purpose.
People make mistakes, I have before and I think any londoner that uses
transport every single day will sympathise with this particular traveller.
They will look back at the time they thought their tc was valid and it
wasn't. It happens to people every single day and it seems that the only
difference between getting away with it and being prosecuted comes down to
luck and the discretion of the revenue protection officer. Why prosecute
people? I would have thought that the criminal justice system should only
be
brought in where the person caught has be caught a number of times? If LT
want to recoup money why not simply employ more revenue protection
officers,
I am sure they'll pay for themselves in the long run.


--
============
David Varnham

Sponsor me running the Windsor Half Marathon in September he
http://www.justgiving.co.uk/varnham
All sponsorship money goes to Mind.


"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
news
In message , Richard J.
writes
I don't understand why this wasn't dealt with by imposing a £10 penalty

fare.
Yes I thought I was alone in this thread at being surprised that it
wasn't dealt with in this way. In fact I thought that imposing a £10
penalty was the automatic way to deal with such cases.

I can only assume that they've had a lot of fare evasion on that
route, and wanted a few prosecutions as a deterrent.
That makes sense, I suppose, especially since the "honesty" policy of
not checking every ticket/pass now being adopted is so "foreign" to the
average UK passenger. Certainly up here on Midland Metro the fare
evasion before the introduction of conductors appeared to reach dizzying
proportions, if the number of people caught when they *did* do check was
anything to go by.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Then bring in higher penalties. I am sure it would recoup more money AND
provide a greater disincentive for those not simply being forgetful. Then
they pay rather than incurring the expense of prsecututing someone who
really shouldn't be before a court. I don't know how much a magistrates
court costs to mount but I would imagine that it is inefficient in terms of
net gain to LT.

And what deterrent effect can it have, it's not like it's a high profile
murder case. The person convicted will probably take the morning off work
and never mention it again. Granted, they will probably never do it again
but it will have xero affect on others...

David

--
============
David Varnham

Sponsor me running the Windsor Half Marathon in September he
http://www.justgiving.co.uk/varnham
All sponsorship money goes to Mind.
"SJCWHUK" wrote in message
news:cRAmc.4829$7S2.1456@newsfe1-win...
There are all types of evasion and without going right into this
particular
case there is a lot of evasion on the tubes and buses.

The current estimate (this is only what I heard) is around £45 million a
year.

Ascertaining the difference between a genuine mistake and deliberate
avoidance is tricky but that is why we have the protection of the
Magistrates Court who can make the ultimate decision. Many countries on
the
continent have a penalty system like parking fines or speed cameras. You
can end up with a spot fine of around £100.

Steve

"David Varnham" wrote in message
...
I think it is a terrible waste of time and money and serves no real
purpose.
People make mistakes, I have before and I think any londoner that uses
transport every single day will sympathise with this particular
traveller.
They will look back at the time they thought their tc was valid and it
wasn't. It happens to people every single day and it seems that the
only
difference between getting away with it and being prosecuted comes down
to
luck and the discretion of the revenue protection officer. Why
prosecute
people? I would have thought that the criminal justice system should
only
be
brought in where the person caught has be caught a number of times? If
LT
want to recoup money why not simply employ more revenue protection
officers,
I am sure they'll pay for themselves in the long run.


--
============
David Varnham

Sponsor me running the Windsor Half Marathon in September he
http://www.justgiving.co.uk/varnham
All sponsorship money goes to Mind.


"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
news
In message , Richard
J.
writes
I don't understand why this wasn't dealt with by imposing a £10
penalty

fare.
Yes I thought I was alone in this thread at being surprised that it
wasn't dealt with in this way. In fact I thought that imposing a £10
penalty was the automatic way to deal with such cases.

I can only assume that they've had a lot of fare evasion on that
route, and wanted a few prosecutions as a deterrent.
That makes sense, I suppose, especially since the "honesty" policy of
not checking every ticket/pass now being adopted is so "foreign" to
the
average UK passenger. Certainly up here on Midland Metro the fare
evasion before the introduction of conductors appeared to reach
dizzying
proportions, if the number of people caught when they *did* do check
was
anything to go by.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Wed, 5 May 2004 at 16:01:52, Ian Jelf
wrote:

I can only assume that they've had a lot of fare evasion on that
route, and wanted a few prosecutions as a deterrent.
That makes sense, I suppose, especially since the "honesty" policy of
not checking every ticket/pass now being adopted is so "foreign" to the
average UK passenger. Certainly up here on Midland Metro the fare
evasion before the introduction of conductors appeared to reach dizzying
proportions, if the number of people caught when they *did* do check was
anything to go by.

Years ago (about 1972, I think), when they first abolished the
"tricoteuses" on the Paris Metro - the people, usually women, who would
clip a hole in your tickets as you passed through - they replaced them
with a system whereby you introduced your ticket into an automatic
machine which just printed a stamp on it, and then the gates would open
to let you through.

Within six months, they were replacing it by the magnetic-strip system
familiar to us today! They hadn't realised, unlike the punters, that
you could use the same ticket over and over and over and over
again.......
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004