On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:07:26 +0100, Robin9
wrote:


The thread title asks if there are lessons for the rail industry.

A few years ago the answer would have been an emphatic yes
because Railtrack and Network Rail both had a firm policy of
sub-contracting out all their maintenance and renewal work.
Now headed by Andrew Haines, an ex-professional railwayman,
Network Rail at last recognises the need to bring together
"track and trains" and it's possible that this might eventually
lead to a reduction in sub-contracting.

I'm enormously encouraged by Mr. Haines arguing on several
occasions that the main requirement on the railway is for people
who who really know the job and for a culture that respects
competence and experience.

That is true but since Crossrail is a product of the subcontracting
ear (if I can call it that) you might wonder how much of the cost
overrun and delay is caused by subcontracting.

On 26/08/2020 00:00, Graham Harrison wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:07:26 +0100, Robin9
wrote:


The thread title asks if there are lessons for the rail industry.

A few years ago the answer would have been an emphatic yes
because Railtrack and Network Rail both had a firm policy of
sub-contracting out all their maintenance and renewal work.
Now headed by Andrew Haines, an ex-professional railwayman,
Network Rail at last recognises the need to bring together
"track and trains" and it's possible that this might eventually
lead to a reduction in sub-contracting.

I'm enormously encouraged by Mr. Haines arguing on several
occasions that the main requirement on the railway is for people
who who really know the job and for a culture that respects
competence and experience.

That is true but since Crossrail is a product of the subcontracting
ear (if I can call it that) you might wonder how much of the cost
overrun and delay is caused by subcontracting.

In that case you might also wonder how any of the railways of Britain
ever got built given that virtually all of them used contractors and
subcontractors.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:02:54 +0100, MikeS wrote:

On 26/08/2020 00:00, Graham Harrison wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:07:26 +0100, Robin9
wrote:


The thread title asks if there are lessons for the rail industry.

A few years ago the answer would have been an emphatic yes
because Railtrack and Network Rail both had a firm policy of
sub-contracting out all their maintenance and renewal work.
Now headed by Andrew Haines, an ex-professional railwayman,
Network Rail at last recognises the need to bring together
"track and trains" and it's possible that this might eventually
lead to a reduction in sub-contracting.

I'm enormously encouraged by Mr. Haines arguing on several
occasions that the main requirement on the railway is for people
who who really know the job and for a culture that respects
competence and experience.

That is true but since Crossrail is a product of the subcontracting
ear (if I can call it that) you might wonder how much of the cost
overrun and delay is caused by subcontracting.

In that case you might also wonder how any of the railways of Britain
ever got built given that virtually all of them used contractors and
subcontractors.

True but there does seem to be a particular problem in this "modern"
era.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 04:34:55PM +0100, Graham Harrison wrote:
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:02:54 +0100, MikeS wrote:
On 26/08/2020 00:00, Graham Harrison wrote:
That is true but since Crossrail is a product of the subcontracting
ear (if I can call it that) you might wonder how much of the cost
overrun and delay is caused by subcontracting.
In that case you might also wonder how any of the railways of Britain
ever got built given that virtually all of them used contractors and
subcontractors.
True but there does seem to be a particular problem in this "modern"
era.

From which the conclusion has to be that sub-contracting per se is *not*
the main cause of the problem.

--
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it -- Agatha Christie

MikeS wrote:
On 26/08/2020 00:00, Graham Harrison wrote:
That is true but since Crossrail is a product of the subcontracting
ear (if I can call it that) you might wonder how much of the cost
overrun and delay is caused by subcontracting.

In that case you might also wonder how any of the railways of Britain
ever got built given that virtually all of them used contractors and
subcontractors.

Victorian railways were not unfamiliar with cost overruns and bankruptcies,
of course. I do wonder if any of them actually made a profit in the long
run.

Theo

Theo wrote:
MikeS wrote:
On 26/08/2020 00:00, Graham Harrison wrote:
That is true but since Crossrail is a product of the subcontracting
ear (if I can call it that) you might wonder how much of the cost
overrun and delay is caused by subcontracting.

In that case you might also wonder how any of the railways of Britain
ever got built given that virtually all of them used contractors and
subcontractors.

Victorian railways were not unfamiliar with cost overruns and bankruptcies,
of course. I do wonder if any of them actually made a profit in the long
run.

I think the early ones, running along the routes of obvious high demand,
did very well and form the basis for the 125mph main lines of today. But
that initial success encouraged many other later railways that either
duplicated the early routes or had too little potential demand (freight or
passenger). That later railway mania led to railways that were generally
less or not profitable at all. Most got absorbed by larger neighbours, and
were the early casualties in the 20th century rail closures.