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Old January 6th 21, 09:29 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:15:13 -0000
"NY" wrote:
"Sam Wilson" wrote in message
...
inserted, so S.... W.... (not me) was “sxw”. It looked odd when you
first
saw one - “oh, I didn’t know Steve’s middle name was Xavier...”


It's an interesting difference between UK and US: here in the UK middle
names and initials are rarely used - almost never in the printed name below
a handwritten signature or in the salutation ("Dear ...") on a letter. And
very rarely in official lists (examination results etc). And not on signs on
office doors. In the US, a middle initial seems to be mandatory.


Possibly because a lot of americans are also self important and insecure
which is why so many of them have some need to define themselves as [something]
American - eg italian, black, irish - even if the last time anyone in their
family saw ireland from anything other than 30K feet it was 4 generations ago.
They all need to belong to some subgroup to feel complete.


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Old January 6th 21, 09:45 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:23:19 on Tue, 5 Jan 2021,
NY remarked:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink, "Thameslink",
even when it was operated by FCC.


I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube line,
looking for the "new" (as it was then)


The station opened in 2007...

Thameslink station, following the closure of old KX Midland City station
on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't find it anywhere. All the other lines
were clearly marked on overhead signs, but there were no signs to
Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the "Govia" line


...and Govia didn't take over the franchise until 2014.


Interesting. I must have mis-remembered the timing of my visit. I thought
that it was soon after the new station opened, but maybe it was some time
(at least 7 years) later. Either way, it was a "new" station to *me* ;-)


- and found that this was what the Thameslink part of the station was now
called. Bloody stupid to rename it after the old name was so well known
and established. It's like all the renamings of football stadiums to
include the name of the latest sponsor.


But I agree that the different parts of the station should really be named
to represent stability (eg Thameslink/HS1/E*/MML) rather than the name of
the franchise operating it this week.


Very definitely. I'm firmly of the school of thought with everything in life
that you aim to get it right the first time and then never change it if
possible. This is diammetrically opposite to the normal school of thought
that you should rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic as often as possible
to prevent things getting "stale". The current here-today-gone-tomorrow
owner/operator is a very different concept to the long-term service name.
Sadly each operator wants to publicise their own name rather than the
service name.

If I was in charge of allocating TOCs, I'd build a condition into the
franchise agreement that all signage, timetables etc must use the
long-established service/route name, and that your own company branding must
be *in addition* to this rather than as a *replacement* for it. Hence
"Thameslink" rather than "Govia".

In particular, a descriptive name (eg Thameslink) is always better than a
made-up name like Govia that doesn't indicate the route or coverage area.
Old "grouping" company names like LNER, LMS, GWR, Southern indicated the
territory. Modern franchise owner names like Avanti, Abellio, C2C, Govia,
Connex are meaningless. Company names should endeavour to *mean* something
about their business - sorry if that is a heretical idea!

How is Govia pronounced? GO-vee-ah (as in the classical guitarist Segovia),
Go-VI-a (as in "go via")?

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Old January 6th 21, 09:51 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:23:19 on Tue, 5 Jan 2021,
NY remarked:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink,
"Thameslink", even when it was operated by FCC.

I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube
line, looking for the "new" (as it was then)


The station opened in 2007...

Thameslink station, following the closure of old KX Midland City
station on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't find it anywhere. All the
other lines were clearly marked on overhead signs, but there were no
signs to Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the "Govia" line


...and Govia didn't take over the franchise until 2014.


Yes, it was First, in the guise of FCC, that tried to expunge Thameslink.
GTR promptly returned to Thameslink branding, including on the SPILL
station.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/17087374661/in/album-72157651787464546/


Ah. I *did* mis-remember it - but I got the gist correct. When did FCC take
over and try to expunge the Thameslink name, in relation to when SPILL
opened? How did FCC describe their part of the station on passenger signage?
Did they effectively replace "Thameslink" with "FCC" (or "First") on signs?
Sadly "First" tends to lead to confusion with First Class versus
Standard/Second Class in terms of ticketing and carriage seating - not a
very sensible name to use in a context where First has a long-established
meaning.

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Old January 6th 21, 10:03 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

NY wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:23:19 on Tue, 5 Jan 2021,
NY remarked:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink,
"Thameslink", even when it was operated by FCC.

I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube
line, looking for the "new" (as it was then)

The station opened in 2007...

Thameslink station, following the closure of old KX Midland City
station on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't find it anywhere. All the
other lines were clearly marked on overhead signs, but there were no
signs to Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the "Govia" line

...and Govia didn't take over the franchise until 2014.


Yes, it was First, in the guise of FCC, that tried to expunge Thameslink.
GTR promptly returned to Thameslink branding, including on the SPILL
station.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/17087374661/in/album-72157651787464546/


Ah. I *did* mis-remember it - but I got the gist correct. When did FCC take
over and try to expunge the Thameslink name, in relation to when SPILL
opened? How did FCC describe their part of the station on passenger signage?
Did they effectively replace "Thameslink" with "FCC" (or "First") on signs?


Yes:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/St_Pancras_Thameslink_entrance.JPG


Sadly "First" tends to lead to confusion with First Class versus
Standard/Second Class in terms of ticketing and carriage seating - not a
very sensible name to use in a context where First has a long-established
meaning.



Yes, they used FCC or First Capital Connect on all their branding. And
here's an example of First selling expensive First class tickets for FCC
trains without First class seats:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/first-class-tickets-sold-for-trains-without-first-class-seats-6474136.html

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Old January 6th 21, 10:39 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
It's an interesting difference between UK and US: here in the UK middle
names and initials are rarely used - almost never in the printed name
below a handwritten signature or in the salutation ("Dear ...") on a
letter. And very rarely in official lists (examination results etc). And
not on signs on office doors. In the US, a middle initial seems to be
mandatory.


But in the UK very often used in a nickname; DNA - Douglas Adams, for
example. Or his one-time classmate who wrote the worst poetry: PNMG.


The best nickname (nominative determinism?) was the head of department in
the electronic engineering department where I worked. He was known as Bill
Taylor but his nickname was J-Omega. Then I saw his initials and the penny
dropped: JWT (W=Bill). Electronic engineering formula of quantities that
vary over time often have terms that involve j omega t (square root of minus
1, angular frequency = 2 pi f, time).



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Old January 6th 21, 10:47 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

On 05/01/2021 22:23, Sam Wilson wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 05/01/2021 18:17, Sam Wilson wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:22:35 on Tue, 5 Jan 2021,
Tweed remarked:

It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.

Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.

Yes, hence the use of the word "similar" (not "identical")

I’ve recently found this fascinating and instructive:
https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names


The Afghan politican Abdullah Abdullah allegedly only had one name
originally, but he got so fed up with people from elsehwere asking for
his other name that he decided it was easiest to double it so he had one.


George Brown, the tired and emotional Labour politician, became Lord
George-Brown on his elevation to the peerage because he still wanted to be
called George Brown, even though peers are conventionally known only by
their surnames. He had to change his name to George George-Brown to do it,
though. Boutros Boutros-Ghali did something similar but I don’t know the
details.

I remember ordering a CD from the US by email before the days of
internet ordering and they insisted on a middle name which I don't have.
They seemed happy with Zed and I don't think they correlated it with Zee.

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Old January 6th 21, 11:01 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

NY wrote:

The best nickname (nominative determinism?) was the head of department in
the electronic engineering department where I worked. He was known as Bill
Taylor but his nickname was J-Omega. Then I saw his initials and the penny
dropped: JWT (W=Bill). Electronic engineering formula of quantities that
vary over time often have terms that involve j omega t (square root of minus
1, angular frequency = 2 pi f, time).


:-)

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as
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Old January 6th 21, 11:12 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

wrote in message
...
I remember ordering a CD from the US by email before the days of internet
ordering and they insisted on a middle name which I don't have. They
seemed happy with Zed and I don't think they correlated it with Zee.


Interesting how conventions for middle names have changed over the years.
All four of my grandparents, born around 1910 +/- a few years, had just one
name. Their parents and their children had two forenames. I wonder why
middle names went out of fashion around 1910 - or were my grandparents an
unrepresentative sample? ;-)

There was a trend slightly further back for a family name (eg mother's
maiden surname) to be used as a first name. One of my great grandfather's
had the first name Herd, which was his mother's maiden surname. Come to
think of it, I'm not sure he had a middle name, either, so maybe the
no-middle-name trend started earlier. My dad's paternal grandmother's family
had a trend for using the surnames of famous politicians of the time as
middle names for their children - there is a forename Gladstone surname,
forename Palmerstone surname and forename Disraeli surname.

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Old January 6th 21, 12:12 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

In message , at 10:51:32 on Wed, 6 Jan 2021,
NY remarked:

When did FCC take over and try to expunge the Thameslink name, in
relation to when SPILL opened?


When it opened they'd had the franchise 18 months.
--
Roland Perry
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Old January 6th 21, 02:34 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Thameslink returns to the Tube Map

On 06/01/2021 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:31:21 on Wed, 6 Jan 2021,
Sam Wilson remarked:

On of the UoEd’s schools used to use login names based on initials but
they
were at least 3 characters long.* People without a middle name got an “x”
inserted, so S.... W.... (not me) was “sxw”.** It looked odd when you
first
saw one - “oh, I didn’t know Steve’s middle name was Xavier...”


There's still some cachet in having an ongoing login with "1" as a
suffix in Cambridge. Maybe other places too.


Especially one of the original four-character logins (RXP1, etc.)


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