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  #201   Report Post  
Old April 16th 21, 10:54 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:



There are more up to date ones which would have been a better choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.


One thing that strikes me from the various videos of the old Dalby test
route is that it is mainly straight. As more trains like the S stock get
constructed with full width connections between cars
or even articulations that could be an achilles heel.
The law of sod if you are testing something says it will be the bit that
wasn’t stressed that shows up an unexpected snag.


I know they have test rigs to repeatedly stress those connections to
destruction, with more violent movement in all directions than you'd want
to put a real train through.



Real service often shows up problems which testing hasn't; the latest
example is cracks in the yaw damper mountings of Northern's CAF units.
Several units are out of traffic, the rest being visually checked daily,
and some 319s are apparently being readied for a possible return to
service.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

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Old April 16th 21, 11:22 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Test tracks

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:


There are more up to date ones which would have been a better choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.


One thing that strikes me from the various videos of the old Dalby test
route is that it is mainly straight. As more trains like the S stock get
constructed with full width connections between cars
or even articulations that could be an achilles heel.
The law of sod if you are testing something says it will be the bit that
wasn’t stressed that shows up an unexpected snag.


I know they have test rigs to repeatedly stress those connections to
destruction, with more violent movement in all directions than you'd want
to put a real train through.



Real service often shows up problems which testing hasn't; the latest
example is cracks in the yaw damper mountings of Northern's CAF units.
Several units are out of traffic, the rest being visually checked daily,
and some 319s are apparently being readied for a possible return to
service.


https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status/1382968339870408707?s=21


Anna Noyd-Dryver




  #203   Report Post  
Old April 16th 21, 11:23 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Test tracks

On 16/04/2021 10:47, Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:



There are more up to date ones which would have been a better choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU


Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.


One thing that strikes me from the various videos of the old Dalby test
route is that it is mainly straight. As more trains like the S stock get
constructed with full width connections between cars
or even articulations that could be an achilles heel.
The law of sod if you are testing something says it will be the bit that
wasn’t stressed that shows up an unexpected snag .

Obviously the S stock has been in service long enough now around the LU
system that they must have got it right in that case but there will be
other stock in the future.

I see plans for the Welsh based Global Centre For Rail Excellence were
recently published
and like the test tracks in the Czech Republic and Germany will have a
continuous circuit available.
so it could give Old Dalby competition .

https://nation.cymru/news/plans-subm...ence-in-wales/

GH


Only narrow gauge?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

  #204   Report Post  
Old April 16th 21, 11:26 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Test tracks

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:


There are more up to date ones which would have been a better choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.


One thing that strikes me from the various videos of the old Dalby test
route is that it is mainly straight. As more trains like the S stock get
constructed with full width connections between cars
or even articulations that could be an achilles heel.
The law of sod if you are testing something says it will be the bit that
wasn’t stressed that shows up an unexpected snag.

I know they have test rigs to repeatedly stress those connections to
destruction, with more violent movement in all directions than you'd want
to put a real train through.



Real service often shows up problems which testing hasn't; the latest
example is cracks in the yaw damper mountings of Northern's CAF units.
Several units are out of traffic, the rest being visually checked daily,
and some 319s are apparently being readied for a possible return to
service.


https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status/1382968339870408707?s=21


That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!
  #205   Report Post  
Old April 16th 21, 12:43 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Posts: 10,122
Default Test tracks

In message , at 11:26:45 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Recliner remarked:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:


There are more up to date ones which would have been a better
choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.


One thing that strikes me from the various videos of the old Dalby test
route is that it is mainly straight. As more trains like the S stock get
constructed with full width connections between cars
or even articulations that could be an achilles heel.
The law of sod if you are testing something says it will be the bit that
wasn’t stressed that shows up an unexpected snag.

I know they have test rigs to repeatedly stress those connections to
destruction, with more violent movement in all directions than you'd want
to put a real train through.

Real service often shows up problems which testing hasn't; the latest
example is cracks in the yaw damper mountings of Northern's CAF units.
Several units are out of traffic, the rest being visually checked daily,
and some 319s are apparently being readied for a possible return to
service.


https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status/1382968339870408707?s=21


That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!


Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?
--
Roland Perry


  #206   Report Post  
Old April 16th 21, 01:14 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Test tracks

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:26:45 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Recliner remarked:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:


There are more up to date ones which would have been a better
choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.


One thing that strikes me from the various videos of the old Dalby test
route is that it is mainly straight. As more trains like the S stock get
constructed with full width connections between cars
or even articulations that could be an achilles heel.
The law of sod if you are testing something says it will be the bit that
wasn’t stressed that shows up an unexpected snag.

I know they have test rigs to repeatedly stress those connections to
destruction, with more violent movement in all directions than you'd want
to put a real train through.

Real service often shows up problems which testing hasn't; the latest
example is cracks in the yaw damper mountings of Northern's CAF units.
Several units are out of traffic, the rest being visually checked daily,
and some 319s are apparently being readied for a possible return to
service.

https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status/1382968339870408707?s=21


That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!


Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?


It’s what happens as the result of “efficiency”. In days gone by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days it’s fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
that’s not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.

  #207   Report Post  
Old April 16th 21, 04:29 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Posts: 10,122
Default Test tracks

In message , at 13:14:11 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:

That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!


Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?


It’s what happens as the result of “efficiency”. In days gone by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days it’s fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
that’s not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.


I agree that corporate memory is important, but proper engineers
are taught universal memory - which can then be applied to
whatever corporate they are working for this week.
--
Roland Perry
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Old April 16th 21, 06:27 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Test tracks

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:14:11 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:

That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!

Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?


It’s what happens as the result of “efficiency”. In days gone by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days it’s fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
that’s not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.


I agree that corporate memory is important, but proper engineers
are taught universal memory - which can then be applied to
whatever corporate they are working for this week.


It would make for an extremely long degree course to impart the knowledge
learnt from a career.

  #209   Report Post  
Old April 16th 21, 07:15 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Test tracks

On 16/04/2021 19:27, Tweed wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:14:11 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:

That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!

Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?

It’s what happens as the result of “efficiency”. In days gone by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days it’s fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
that’s not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.


I agree that corporate memory is important, but proper engineers
are taught universal memory - which can then be applied to
whatever corporate they are working for this week.


It would make for an extremely long degree course to impart the knowledge
learnt from a career.


Absolutely.

In technical areas corporate memory can be a judgement which is only
learnt by years of experience which cannot be learnt in the classroom or
from books and only by working with experienced elders can that
experience be retained. Sack those elders and that knowledge is lost
and can only be re-learnt.


  #210   Report Post  
Old April 17th 21, 05:40 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Test tracks

In message , at 18:27:34 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:14:11 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:

That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!

Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?

It’s what happens as the result of “efficiency”. In days gone by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days it’s fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
that’s not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.


I agree that corporate memory is important, but proper engineers
are taught universal memory - which can then be applied to
whatever corporate they are working for this week.


It would make for an extremely long degree course to impart the knowledge
learnt from a career.


Two different things.

A degree course can plant a 'memory' that metal fatigue is "a thing",
and encourage designing it out.

A career during which someone discovers metal fatigue in a particular
component of a particular assembly (and remembers that), has the
disadvantage that first of all there first has to be a failure of that
component, and secondly it may not be obvious simply from that memory
that the failure mode could also occur in a different component of a
different assembly.
--
Roland Perry


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