In message , at 20:15:26 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, remarked:
On 16/04/2021 19:27, Tweed wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:14:11 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:

That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!

Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?

It’s what happens as the result of “efficiency�. In days gone
by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days it’s fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
that’s not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.

I agree that corporate memory is important, but proper engineers
are taught universal memory - which can then be applied to
whatever corporate they are working for this week.
It would make for an extremely long degree course to impart the
knowledge
learnt from a career.


Absolutely.

In technical areas corporate memory can be a judgement which is only
learnt by years of experience which cannot be learnt in the classroom
or from books and only by working with experienced elders can that
experience be retained. Sack those elders and that knowledge is lost
and can only be re-learnt.

I disagree. Those "elders" can be the people teaching in the classroom.

For example, you can teach how to weld aluminium, in the classroom (with
practicals) just as easily as have an older welder show you the ropes on
site.

That'll also help when one day you get a job at a place which requires
some aluminium welding, and they've never done it before (so no elders
with experience).

Corporate memory is fine in some situations (especially when repeating
some exercise where the right way has bee discovered by trial and error
in the past). In the classroom, however, one can be let into the secrets
of what's contained in the massed corporate memory of hundreds of
organisations.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:15:26 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, remarked:
On 16/04/2021 19:27, Tweed wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:14:11 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:

That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!

Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?

It’s what happens as the result of “efficiency�. In days gone
by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days it’s fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
that’s not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.

I agree that corporate memory is important, but proper engineers
are taught universal memory - which can then be applied to
whatever corporate they are working for this week.
It would make for an extremely long degree course to impart the
knowledge
learnt from a career.


Absolutely.

In technical areas corporate memory can be a judgement which is only
learnt by years of experience which cannot be learnt in the classroom
or from books and only by working with experienced elders can that
experience be retained. Sack those elders and that knowledge is lost
and can only be re-learnt.

I disagree. Those "elders" can be the people teaching in the classroom.

For example, you can teach how to weld aluminium, in the classroom (with
practicals) just as easily as have an older welder show you the ropes on
site.

That'll also help when one day you get a job at a place which requires
some aluminium welding, and they've never done it before (so no elders
with experience).

Corporate memory is fine in some situations (especially when repeating
some exercise where the right way has bee discovered by trial and error
in the past). In the classroom, however, one can be let into the secrets
of what's contained in the massed corporate memory of hundreds of
organisations.

It’s got nothing to do with passing on skills, which as you can say can be
taught. It’s got everything to do with judgments, balancing risks, taking
things into account that the inexperienced have failed to consider. At the
start of a career you don’t even know what you don’t know.

If your job is highly formulaic, eg accountancy, there’s probably not too
much requirement for corporate memory. But if it is engineering,
particularly branches that push the state of the art forwards, you do need
a decent mixture of the old and experienced and the young and enthusiastic,
the latter being needed so new approaches are considered.

The idea that an (decent) engineer is a unit of resource that can be freely
traded across an economy sounds fine to the graduates of MBA courses, but
crashes when faced with reality.

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 18:27:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:14:11 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:

That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!

Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?

Itÿs what happens as the result of ´efficiency¡. In days gone by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days itÿs fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
thatÿs not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.

I agree that corporate memory is important, but proper engineers
are taught universal memory - which can then be applied to
whatever corporate they are working for this week.

It would make for an extremely long degree course to impart the knowledge
learnt from a career.

So what did you do at the end of your long - and no doubt-
successful career to capture this institutional memory for future
generations? Maybe create a few YouTube videos or setup a wiki?

mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 18:27:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:14:11 on Fri, 16 Apr
2021, Tweed remarked:

That looks like a pretty basic flaw that should have been found and fixed
long ago, particularly as it's happened before, in Ireland!

Or similar failure modes on the Comet aircraft. Don't they teach this on
the first week of engineering courses, any more?

It´s what happens as the result of “efficiency�. In days gone by there
would be a core of long serving engineers in an organisation with the
corporate memory of what not to do again. These days it´s fashionable to
talk up changing jobs every few years and easing out the older experienced
staff because they are expensive. The modern practice is to claim that
everything can be captured in a specification or a standard. Unfortunately
that´s not the case....

Many outfits are doomed to keep on repeating the same mistakes because of
high staff turnover.

I agree that corporate memory is important, but proper engineers
are taught universal memory - which can then be applied to
whatever corporate they are working for this week.

It would make for an extremely long degree course to impart the knowledge
learnt from a career.

So what did you do at the end of your long - and no doubt-
successful career to capture this institutional memory for future
generations? Maybe create a few YouTube videos or setup a wiki?


We try, with varying degrees of success, to keep a mix of young middle aged
and end of career staff. Hopefully the knowledge trickles down by working
together. The young have someone to go to to ask, seek advice etc. The more
mature staff provide invaluable input on review panels. That, especially,
helps to avoid repeating past mistakes.

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Tweed wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Often not enough spaces for all residents then you get the complication
if someone else parks in your space so you have park elsewhere.


I wasn't thinking house-specific numbered spaces, but just marked
car-length spaces with a charging point each.



I still want to know what is to be done about cable theft. Presumably
charger cables have some fairly thick copper conductors. I could see
someone with insulated bolt cutters chopping their way down a street of
plugged in cars in the dead of night. Does an alarm go off if the cable is
chopped?

https://www.fleetpoint.org/electric-vehicles-2/thieves-making-200-a-time-stealing-car-charging-cables/



That's talking about whole cables being stolen (presumably to be re-sold
whole) by being unplugged (the're supposed to be locked in to both vehicle
and charger); one of the suggested solutions is a padlock around the cable,
which wouldn't prevent the theft-by-cutting suggested in this thread.

Switch to aluminium conductors, which on a per weight basis are nearly as
good as copper, and which don’t have nearly as much scrap value?
--
Jeremy Double

Jeremy Double wrote:

I still want to know what is to be done about cable theft. Presumably
charger cables have some fairly thick copper conductors. I could see
someone with insulated bolt cutters chopping their way down a street of
plugged in cars in the dead of night. Does an alarm go off if the cable is
chopped?

https://www.fleetpoint.org/electric-vehicles-2/thieves-making-200-a-time-stealing-car-charging-cables/



That's talking about whole cables being stolen (presumably to be re-sold
whole) by being unplugged (the're supposed to be locked in to both vehicle
and charger); one of the suggested solutions is a padlock around the cable,
which wouldn't prevent the theft-by-cutting suggested in this thread.

Switch to aluminium conductors, which on a per weight basis are nearly as
good as copper, and which don’t have nearly as much scrap value?

Does aluminium remain flexible enough or does it work harden?

I would envisage problems with cables as strands break leading to a hotspot
and then complete failure .

GH

Jeremy Double wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Tweed wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Often not enough spaces for all residents then you get the complication
if someone else parks in your space so you have park elsewhere.


I wasn't thinking house-specific numbered spaces, but just marked
car-length spaces with a charging point each.



I still want to know what is to be done about cable theft. Presumably
charger cables have some fairly thick copper conductors. I could see
someone with insulated bolt cutters chopping their way down a street of
plugged in cars in the dead of night. Does an alarm go off if the cable is
chopped?

https://www.fleetpoint.org/electric-vehicles-2/thieves-making-200-a-time-stealing-car-charging-cables/



That's talking about whole cables being stolen (presumably to be re-sold
whole) by being unplugged (the're supposed to be locked in to both vehicle
and charger); one of the suggested solutions is a padlock around the cable,
which wouldn't prevent the theft-by-cutting suggested in this thread.

Switch to aluminium conductors, which on a per weight basis are nearly as
good as copper, and which don’t have nearly as much scrap value?


Railway cable thieves cut fibre-optic cables before realising they're
worthless to them; a cut EV charging cable is just as useless whether the
thief subsequently decides to leave the aluminium or not.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Am 20.04.2021 um 11:46 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
Jeremy Double wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

That's talking about whole cables being stolen (presumably to be re-sold
whole) by being unplugged (the're supposed to be locked in to both vehicle
and charger); one of the suggested solutions is a padlock around the cable,
which wouldn't prevent the theft-by-cutting suggested in this thread.

Switch to aluminium conductors, which on a per weight basis are nearly as
good as copper, and which don’t have nearly as much scrap value?

Railway cable thieves cut fibre-optic cables before realising they're
worthless to them; a cut EV charging cable is just as useless whether the
thief subsequently decides to leave the aluminium or not.

It's like with poisonous caterpillars: the one eaten caterpillar is dead
anyway but the bird remembers and does not pick that species a second
time.

Specifically in a road full of EV charging cables, the thieves might
destroy the first one, see that its aluminimu and call it quits before
demolisching all cables in the road.

On 20/04/2021 11:19, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 20.04.2021 um 11:46 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
Jeremy Double wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

That's talking about whole cables being stolen (presumably to be
re-sold
whole) by being unplugged (the're supposed to be locked in to both
vehicle
and charger); one of the suggested solutions is a padlock around the
cable,
which wouldn't prevent the theft-by-cutting suggested in this thread.

Switch to aluminium conductors, which on a per weight basis are
nearly as
good as copper, and which don’t have nearly as much scrap value?

Railway cable thieves cut fibre-optic cables before realising they're
worthless to them; a cut EV charging cable is just as useless whether the
thief subsequently decides to leave the aluminium or not.

It's like with poisonous caterpillars: the one eaten caterpillar is dead
anyway but the bird remembers and does not pick that species a second time.

Specifically in a road full of EV charging cables, the thieves might
destroy the first one, see that its aluminimu and call it quits before
demolisching all cables in the road.

You are assuming that aluminium charging cables are feasible. I am
unaware of aluminium being used where both high power and flexibility
are required - despite the obvious potential savings on raw material
costs for kettles, fan heaters, hair dryers, etc.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/04/2021 02:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:



The reasonably practical measure taken at Old Dalby is presumably not
having staff walking at track level without an isolation.


Anna Noyd-Dryver


So what's being done to remove this hazard from the railway seeing how
dangerous it is?

Peter (Stroud, Glos)

--
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