Cost of big and small tubes
 

Thanks for everyone's answers so far, by the way.

On Wed, 26 May 2004, John Rowland wrote:

"Richard J." wrote in message
...
Tom Anderson wrote:

I can see why it might be greater - there's more mass to shift, more
surface to line - but not massively greater.

I think that nowadays these seem to be a relatively small part of the cost
of building a railway.

Precisely!

I suppose the meta-answer is that when the tubes were built, through
running wasn't on the radar, so there was no point in building them
bigger. However, i do suspect that - where the constraints of the geology
and other subterranean structures permit - new lines ought to be built to
mainline gauge; the relative marginal cost is small, i think, and the
options it gives us for the future are large.

Further to one of Mark Brader's points, when Crossrail 2 (aka Chelsea
Hackney) was planned to be tube gauge it was planned to have a station
at Piccadilly Circus. When the plan changed to mainline gauge, this
station was deleted from the plan because there is not enough room in
that area for the larger platform tunnels that a mainline gauge line
would need.

Constraints like this. Yes, i think the lure of a station at Piccadilly
Circus would be enough to convert me to tube gauge here!

tom

--
drank lots of pints of beer, usually grolsch/met friends/museums/watch tele/read papers/thought a lot/walked much/much tube (no accidents)/some burgers/some pizza/some resturants (the ones I could afford)/some english breakfasts/some puddings -- Dor Zaf, 15 days in the UK

Cost of big and small tubes
 

"Alex":
Digressing a bit, I've always wondered why the South coast of England
(mainly the South East) uses the 700V DC "third rail" system for
electrical power, when the entire rest of the UK uses the 25000V AC
overhead cable system. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the same
used all over the UK?

In principle yes, but the Southern network is already pressing the limit
of what is economical as regards both distance and speed for third-rail
trains. Most systems that use it don't have journeys anywhere near as
long as London to Bournemouth or Dover. Low-voltage power requires
frequent substations due to voltage drop, and the amount of current that
can be conveyed is also limited. And if it's DC, it additionally requires
AC-to-DC conversion at every substation.

Besides, wasn't 25kVAC thought up well after 700V DC anyway?

Which completes the story.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "When you're up to your ass in alligators, maybe
| you're in the wrong swamp." -- Bill Stewart

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Cost of big and small tubes
 

On Wed, 26 May 2004 16:43:32 +0000 (UTC), TheOneKEA
wrote:


I know little of the history of the Southern Railway, but I believe that
it was decided to let the electrification, parts of which were done back
in the time of Yerkes, to proceed apace - IIRC this electrification
contributed to the sparse tube coverage in South London.

Besides, wasn't 25kVAC thought up well after 700V DC anyway?


This last point is the key to it. The technology to make 25kV
possible, in particular the ability to convert the AC supply to a much
lower voltage DC on board a train, only really became available from
around 1945 onwards. A lot of the former Southern Railway was
electrified much earlier than this. Converting it from 3rd rail to
the overhead system would have been very expensive - almost as
expensive as electrifying it from scratch.

Martin

Cost of big and small tubes
 

In article ,
Piccadilly Pilot wrote:

The sub-surface lines can accomodate main line gauge stock although it does
get a bit tight in places with modern stock. In 1982 a test run was carried
out with two battery locos and a BR Mk2 coach. It got round the Circle
although it did touch in a couple of places. This was in preparation for
passenger workings using ex-Met loco No12 Sarah Siddons. In the event these
workings were limited to the Met Main to Amersham and Uxbridge. Sorry can't
be certain where the southern reversal point was, but I think Wembley Park.

ISTR it was first done (in recent times anyway) with the BR Track
Testing Coach when it was hired by LU, and it was the success of that
that led to the idea of railtours. That was the public version anyway !
One such tour was the Battery Rover, which took battery locos along the
Met and District parts of the Circle with a train of Mk2 aircons.

Nick
--
"And we will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what is
neurotypical anyway. Thank you". -- not quite DNA

Cost of big and small tubes
 

AyrAlex (AyrAlex) wrote in message news:f%0tc.51$YT4.7@newsfe5-win...
Tom Anderson wrote:
wouldn't it have made sense to build the underground to be
compatible with the rest of the network, as, AIUI, in Tokyo?

Digressing a bit, I've always wondered why the South coast of England
(mainly the South East) uses the 700V DC "third rail" system for electrical
power, when the entire rest of the UK uses the 25000V AC overhead cable
system. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the same used all over the UK?
It means that a lot of national-running trains have to be diesel.

No , they could be dual voltage like the Thameslink trains or WAGN services
to Moorgate. Also 750V 3rd rail is used up in Merseyside too. Bear in mind
however that outside of the southeast , merseyside and strathclyde regions,
only a small percentage of the local lines are electrified by any means and
even the midland mainline to nottingham and derby is still diesel powered
past Bedford.

B2003

Cost of big and small tubes
 

On Wed, 26 May 2004 13:31:53 +0100, AyrAlex
(AyrAlex) wrote:

It means that a lot of national-running trains have to be diesel.

Or be multi-voltage, as most modern electric trains (at least
potentially) are - Electrostar, Desiros, 319s, 365s, EMUs Silverlink
and WAGN use in London, Eurostars.

I can't think of any services which are diesel because of the two
electrification systems. They are diesel simply because of a lack of
electrification.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Cost of big and small tubes
 

It means that a lot of national-running trains have to be diesel.

Or be multi-voltage, as most modern electric trains (at least
potentially) are - Electrostar, Desiros, 319s, 365s, EMUs Silverlink
and WAGN use in London, Eurostars.

I can't think of any services which are diesel because of the two
electrification systems. They are diesel simply because of a lack of
electrification.

I can think of some which used to run: the North-West to Brighton
services via the Trent Valley and the WLL.

Cost of big and small tubes
 

James wrote:
It means that a lot of national-running trains have to be diesel.

Or be multi-voltage, as most modern electric trains (at least
potentially) are - Electrostar, Desiros, 319s, 365s, EMUs Silverlink
and WAGN use in London, Eurostars.

I can't think of any services which are diesel because of the two
electrification systems. They are diesel simply because of a lack of
electrification.

I can think of some which used to run: the North-West to Brighton
services via the Trent Valley and the WLL.

Which electrification system is used on the WLL?

Cost of big and small tubes
 

Piccadilly Pilot wrote:
James wrote:
It means that a lot of national-running trains have to be diesel.

Or be multi-voltage, as most modern electric trains (at least
potentially) are - Electrostar, Desiros, 319s, 365s, EMUs
Silverlink and WAGN use in London, Eurostars.

I can't think of any services which are diesel because of the two
electrification systems. They are diesel simply because of a lack
of electrification.

I can think of some which used to run: the North-West to Brighton
services via the Trent Valley and the WLL.

Which electrification system is used on the WLL?

750V DC 3rd rail from Clapham Junction to (IIRC) Mitre Bridge Junction,
where it becomes 25KV AC overhead.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Cost of big and small tubes
 

Richard J. wrote:
Piccadilly Pilot wrote:
James wrote:
It means that a lot of national-running trains have to be diesel.

Or be multi-voltage, as most modern electric trains (at least
potentially) are - Electrostar, Desiros, 319s, 365s, EMUs
Silverlink and WAGN use in London, Eurostars.

I can't think of any services which are diesel because of the two
electrification systems. They are diesel simply because of a lack
of electrification.

I can think of some which used to run: the North-West to Brighton
services via the Trent Valley and the WLL.

Which electrification system is used on the WLL?

750V DC 3rd rail from Clapham Junction to (IIRC) Mitre Bridge
Junction, where it becomes 25KV AC overhead.

Sorry, used "is" when I meant "was" in the context of the previous posters
observation about services between the North-West and Brighton.