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Alan \(in Brussels\) August 9th 04 12:23 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
Passport control on Tube
By Luke David, Evening Standard
9 August 2004

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...source=Evening

Immigration officers are questioning Tube travellers because they sound
"foreign", the Evening Standard has learned.

Thousands of passengers are being stopped in a secret operation using
tactics the police are specifically forbidden from deploying. Immigration
officers are stopping anyone they consider to look or sound foreign and
asking them to produce their papers to prove their right to British
residence.

Their aim is uncover illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers. The
discovery that these tactics are being used prompted a political row today.
The Liberal Democrats are set to write to the Home Secretary demanding an
explanation for a scheme civilrights groups dubbed "Stalinist".

The existence of the spot-check operation has been kept secret by the Home
Office but an Evening Standard investigation discovered that teams of
immigration officers have been carrying out the procedures since May 2003.

It is part of a wider programme in which 1,000 suspected illegal immigrants
have been detained.

During one operation witnessed by the Evening Standard, a series of people
getting off Tube trains were stopped by immigration officers dressed in body
armour and carrying handcuffs.

The officer in charge said people were picked out for questioning if they
sounded foreign.

Immigration officer Emma Cromack said: "If you hear someone speaking a
language that's not European we approach them and ask 'do you mind if I ask
you what nationality you are?'

SNIP rest of story - which surprisingly makes no reference to the fact that
the London is full of legitimate tourists, many of whom use the UndergrounD
frequently and extensively

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels - mind the spamtrap)





Paul Weaver August 9th 04 01:53 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
great escapeYour papers please/great escape

Perhaps they'll wish them a "gutten tag" or whatever too.
--
Everything above is the personal opinion of the author, and nothing to do
with where he works and all that lovely disclaimery stuff.
Posted in his lunch hour too.



Alan Harrison August 9th 04 08:38 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Passport control on Tube
By Luke David, Evening Standard
9 August 2004

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...source=Evening

Immigration officer Emma Cromack said: "If you hear someone speaking a
language that's not European we approach them and ask 'do you mind if I

ask
you what nationality you are?"


Hmm, how would they know that a language is "not European"? On the
Piccadilly Line on Saturday (Hounslow West to Hammersmith) I was sitting
opposite a father and daughter who were speaking a language I didn't
recognise. As both were fair-skinned and the little girl was blonde, I
assume that they were European and speaking a European language (unless they
were testing their knowledge of Swahili). What about Turkish (or Russian)
where speakers may be European or Asian?

Alan Harrison



Clive D. W. Feather August 11th 04 04:50 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In article , "Alan (in Brussels)"
writes
Thousands of passengers are being stopped in a secret operation using
tactics the police are specifically forbidden from deploying. Immigration
officers are stopping anyone they consider to look or sound foreign and
asking them to produce their papers to prove their right to British
residence.

[...]
The officer in charge said people were picked out for questioning if they
sounded foreign.


Is it me, or is there a major flaw in this: most people with a right to
British residence *won't carry* any such papers?

I can think of exactly one document I hold that can prove that right,
and that's my passport. After an unfortunate incident a few years ago, I
carry it with me most of the time, but I know I'm unusual in this -
certainly the rest of my family only carry them when going abroad.

So if my "foreign-looking" daughter decides to study Japanese A-level
(yes, her school does offer it) and to practice with one of her
classmates on a trip to the smoke, she could get arrested?!?

Immigration officer Emma Cromack said: "If you hear someone speaking a
language that's not European


I bet the average immigration officer doesn't know what most European
languages sound like. [How many are there? I lost count somewhere around
40, and I'm excluding things like Bengali that are spoken by many
Britons but are not traditionally counted.]

This country gets more like the old USSR or DDR every time I blink.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Tim Challenger August 12th 04 09:27 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:42:29 -0600, Hatunen wrote:

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:38:42 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Harrison"
wrote:


"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Passport control on Tube
By Luke David, Evening Standard
9 August 2004

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...source=Evening

Immigration officer Emma Cromack said: "If you hear someone speaking a
language that's not European we approach them and ask 'do you mind if I

ask
you what nationality you are?"


Hmm, how would they know that a language is "not European"? On the
Piccadilly Line on Saturday (Hounslow West to Hammersmith) I was sitting
opposite a father and daughter who were speaking a language I didn't
recognise. As both were fair-skinned and the little girl was blonde, I
assume that they were European and speaking a European language (unless they
were testing their knowledge of Swahili). What about Turkish (or Russian)
where speakers may be European or Asian?


Finn, Estonian and Hungaian don't sound a bit "European"


Well they do. Just define than as sounding like a language that's spoken in
Europe.
Actually, when spoken in a group I think Finnish sounds like Italian, but
without and words that I can recognise.
--
Tim C.

LarryLard August 12th 04 09:31 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
"Alan Harrison" wrote in message ...
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...

I bet the average immigration officer doesn't know what most European
languages sound like. [How many are there? I lost count somewhere around
40, and I'm excluding things like Bengali that are spoken by many
Britons but are not traditionally counted.]


Just what I thought on Saturday. Travelling on the Piccadilly Line I was
sitting opposite a father and daughter who were speaking a language I
certainly didn't recognise and which I assume to be European. I make that
assumption on the basis that both were blond and blue-eyed.


There is an ethnic group on the west coast of India who look pretty
much north European.


This country gets more like the old USSR or DDR every time I blink.


Overstatement, Clive, but we ceratinly seem to be moving towards an ugly
authoritarianism.


'Today' tells me today that Blunkett wants to make *all* offences
arrestable... but of course we needn't worry because there will be a
'necessity' test.

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

Tim Challenger August 12th 04 09:35 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:50:08 +0100, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

Is it me, or is there a major flaw in this: most people with a right to
British residence *won't carry* any such papers?


Passport? EU citizens still have to carry a passport with them at all times
(or a photocopy, at least) don't they? The same applies for other
foreigners. They should have some form of ID.

UK citizens don't, of course, and there's the rub. You could just say
you're British. You just need a convincing British accent of some sort to
avoid being dragged away and beaten about the ankles with a haddock.
--
Tim C.

Kieran Turner August 12th 04 10:40 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
"LarryLard" wrote in message
om...

There is an ethnic group on the west coast of India who look pretty
much north European.


Are they directly descended from hippies who just never left? ;-)

K



Annabel Smyth August 12th 04 11:11 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 at 11:35:34, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:50:08 +0100, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

Is it me, or is there a major flaw in this: most people with a right to
British residence *won't carry* any such papers?


Passport? EU citizens still have to carry a passport with them at all times
(or a photocopy, at least) don't they? The same applies for other
foreigners. They should have some form of ID.

EU citizens usually have an ID card, so don't need their passports.

UK citizens don't, of course, and there's the rub. You could just say
you're British. You just need a convincing British accent of some sort to
avoid being dragged away and beaten about the ankles with a haddock.


"Ey-up, chook....."
--
Annabel - "Mrs Redboots"
(trying out a new .sig to reflect the personality I use in online forums)


Tim Challenger August 12th 04 11:20 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:11:21 +0100, Annabel Smyth wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 at 11:35:34, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:50:08 +0100, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

Is it me, or is there a major flaw in this: most people with a right to
British residence *won't carry* any such papers?


Passport? EU citizens still have to carry a passport with them at all times
(or a photocopy, at least) don't they? The same applies for other
foreigners. They should have some form of ID.

EU citizens usually have an ID card, so don't need their passports.


Some do, some don't. Either way it's a valid document that shows they are
not nickable.

UK citizens don't, of course, and there's the rub. You could just say
you're British. You just need a convincing British accent of some sort to
avoid being dragged away and beaten about the ankles with a haddock.


"Ey-up, chook....."


The Not The Nine O'Clock News sketch with Constable Savage doing the "nice
and nasty" routine comes to mind.

--
Tim C.

Paul Weaver August 12th 04 12:31 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:27:53 +0200, Tim Challenger wrote:

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:42:29 -0600, Hatunen wrote:

Finn, Estonian and Hungaian don't sound a bit "European"


Well they do. Just define than as sounding like a language that's spoken in
Europe.
Actually, when spoken in a group I think Finnish sounds like Italian, but
without and words that I can recognise.


What, every word ends in a vowel?

Tim Challenger August 12th 04 12:40 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:31:16 +0100, Paul Weaver wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:27:53 +0200, Tim Challenger wrote:

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:42:29 -0600, Hatunen wrote:

Finn, Estonian and Hungaian don't sound a bit "European"


Well they do. Just define than as sounding like a language that's spoken in
Europe.
Actually, when spoken in a group I think Finnish sounds like Italian, but
without and words that I can recognise.


What, every word ends in a vowel?


Yes :)

I'm being serious though. I often have mistaken a group of Finns in a
restaurant for (quiet) Italians, until I could really hear the actual
words.

--
Tim C.

Iain Bowen August 12th 04 01:04 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In article ,
says...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:31:16 +0100, Paul Weaver wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:27:53 +0200, Tim Challenger wrote:

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:42:29 -0600, Hatunen wrote:

Finn, Estonian and Hungaian don't sound a bit "European"

Well they do. Just define than as sounding like a language that's spoken in
Europe.
Actually, when spoken in a group I think Finnish sounds like Italian, but
without and words that I can recognise.


What, every word ends in a vowel?


Yes :)

I'm being serious though. I often have mistaken a group of Finns in a
restaurant for (quiet) Italians, until I could really hear the actual
words.


Very quiet Italian multiple amputees, I'd have thought.

Iain

Tim Challenger August 12th 04 01:32 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:04:21 +0100, Iain Bowen wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:31:16 +0100, Paul Weaver wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:27:53 +0200, Tim Challenger wrote:

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:42:29 -0600, Hatunen wrote:

Finn, Estonian and Hungaian don't sound a bit "European"

Well they do. Just define than as sounding like a language that's spoken in
Europe.
Actually, when spoken in a group I think Finnish sounds like Italian, but
without and words that I can recognise.

What, every word ends in a vowel?


Yes :)

I'm being serious though. I often have mistaken a group of Finns in a
restaurant for (quiet) Italians, until I could really hear the actual
words.


Very quiet Italian multiple amputees, I'd have thought.

Iain


Well yes :) But I was only talking about the language, not the people.

--
Tim C.

Acrosticus August 12th 04 04:20 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
From: "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
Date: 09/08/2004 13:23 GMT Daylight Time


Immigration officer Emma Cromack said: "If you hear someone speaking a
language that's not European we approach them and ask 'do you mind if I ask
you what nationality you are?'


Well the way this Cromack woman speaks English seems to put her under immediate
suspicion of being some kind of alien. "If you hear ..." followed by "... we
approach ...". What she told the Standard just doesn't make sense to anyone
whose native language is English. She's just got to be some kind of undesirable
scrounger from overseas (NB: allowing for the fact that the government
apparently pays her salary the words "from overseas" can become optional by the
way).



Robin May August 23rd 04 10:59 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
Annabel Smyth wrote the following in:


On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 at 11:35:34, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:50:08 +0100, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

Is it me, or is there a major flaw in this: most people with a
right to British residence *won't carry* any such papers?


Passport? EU citizens still have to carry a passport with them at
all times (or a photocopy, at least) don't they? The same applies
for other foreigners. They should have some form of ID.

EU citizens usually have an ID card, so don't need their
passports.


My girlfriend (who is American) doesn't carry a passport or any
immigration papers. She does carry her American driving (or drivers as
they say) licence, which is a form of identification. But I don't see
why some form of ID is any use. All it does is prove that you are from
some other country, which is the reason they stopped you in the first
place. It doesn't show you're in the country legally.

--
message by the incredible Robin May.
"The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures

Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous?
http://robinmay.fotopic.net

Tim Challenger August 23rd 04 11:04 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
On 23 Aug 2004 10:59:15 GMT, Robin May wrote:

Annabel Smyth wrote the following in:


On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 at 11:35:34, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:50:08 +0100, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

Is it me, or is there a major flaw in this: most people with a
right to British residence *won't carry* any such papers?

Passport? EU citizens still have to carry a passport with them at
all times (or a photocopy, at least) don't they? The same applies
for other foreigners. They should have some form of ID.

EU citizens usually have an ID card, so don't need their
passports.


My girlfriend (who is American) doesn't carry a passport or any
immigration papers. She does carry her American driving (or drivers as
they say) licence, which is a form of identification. But I don't see
why some form of ID is any use. All it does is prove that you are from
some other country, which is the reason they stopped you in the first
place. It doesn't show you're in the country legally.


It shows who you are, so they can then check up on you.
--
Tim C.

Roland Perry August 23rd 04 01:21 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In message , at 10:59:15 on
Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Robin May remarked:
But I don't see
why some form of ID is any use. All it does is prove that you are from
some other country, which is the reason they stopped you in the first
place. It doesn't show you're in the country legally.


Except that the Home Office Immigration department has a list of people
who are in the country legally, so if you can reliably establish
someone's name, you can check it against that list.
--
Roland Perry

Clive D. W. Feather August 24th 04 07:39 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In article , Roland
Perry writes
Except that the Home Office Immigration department has a list of people
who are in the country legally, so if you can reliably establish
someone's name, you can check it against that list.


I don't recall any scanning of EU passports at Waterloo last time I came
that way, and I don't think either Paris or Brussels did so either. And
I'm sure there was no scanning last time I used a ferry.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Roland Perry August 25th 04 07:10 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In message , at 20:39:06 on Tue, 24
Aug 2004, Clive D. W. Feather remarked:
Except that the Home Office Immigration department has a list of
people who are in the country legally, so if you can reliably
establish someone's name, you can check it against that list.


I don't recall any scanning of EU passports at Waterloo last time I
came that way, and I don't think either Paris or Brussels did so
either. And I'm sure there was no scanning last time I used a ferry.


Very interesting, but in what way is that relevant to Americans being
legally entitled to live in the UK?
--
Roland Perry

Annabel Smyth August 25th 04 12:40 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
Clive D. W. Feather wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 24 Aug 2004:

In article , Roland
Perry writes
Except that the Home Office Immigration department has a list of
people who are in the country legally, so if you can reliably
establish someone's name, you can check it against that list.


I don't recall any scanning of EU passports at Waterloo last time I
came that way, and I don't think either Paris or Brussels did so
either. And I'm sure there was no scanning last time I used a ferry.

Last time I came into Waterloo there was a massive long queue for
passport control. I can't remember whether or not they scanned them,
though. And at the various Shuttle passport controls, they barely
glance at your passports, although sometimes I think they do scan them.
--
Annabel - "Mrs Redboots"
(trying out a new .sig to reflect the personality I use in online forums)


PJW August 25th 04 05:27 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
This I very much doubt. Why else is there such a drive for a new
National Population Register and ID card, for which we shall be
charged £40? It's all a device to avoid charging the great data-clean
exercise to the general taxation budget.

PJW

In article , Roland
Perry writes
Except that the Home Office Immigration department has a list of people
who are in the country legally, so if you can reliably establish
someone's name, you can check it against that list.


Roland Perry August 25th 04 07:10 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In message , at 17:27:52 on Wed, 25 Aug
2004, PJW remarked:

Please don't top-post, it breaks the flow...

This I very much doubt.


You doubt that the Home Office has a list of legal immigrants? Despite
all of those legal immigrants having filled in copious Home Office
paperwork and had Home Office stamps added to their passports?

Why else is there such a drive for a new
National Population Register and ID card, for which we shall be
charged £40? It's all a device to avoid charging the great data-clean
exercise to the general taxation budget.

PJW

In article , Roland
Perry writes
Except that the Home Office Immigration department has a list of people
who are in the country legally, so if you can reliably establish
someone's name, you can check it against that list.


--
Roland Perry

Clive D. W. Feather August 26th 04 07:00 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In article , Roland
Perry writes
Except that the Home Office Immigration department has a list of
people who are in the country legally, so if you can reliably
establish someone's name, you can check it against that list.

I don't recall any scanning of EU passports at Waterloo last time I
came that way, and I don't think either Paris or Brussels did so
either. And I'm sure there was no scanning last time I used a ferry.

Very interesting, but in what way is that relevant to Americans being
legally entitled to live in the UK?


Nothing. The assertion was "if you can reliably establish someone's
name, you can check it against that list" "of people who are in the
country legally".

Even if IND know the name of every UK citizen (which I doubt), there are
still people legally in the country that they don't know about. And
possession of an EU passport doesn't show that they're here legally
either, even if you know who they are.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Roland Perry August 26th 04 08:59 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In message , at 08:00:49 on Thu, 26
Aug 2004, Clive D. W. Feather remarked:
The assertion was "if you can reliably establish someone's name, you
can check it against that list" "of people who are in the country
legally".


This is in the context of Robin's American girlfriend. So I repeat my
claim that if you are an American in the UK, the Home Office has a list
of those who are in the country legally (a combination of landing cards
for tourists and immigration papers for residents).
--
Roland Perry

Robin May August 26th 04 10:21 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
Hatunen wrote the following in:


On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:38:42 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Harrison"
wrote:


Hmm, how would they know that a language is "not European"? On the
Piccadilly Line on Saturday (Hounslow West to Hammersmith) I was
sitting opposite a father and daughter who were speaking a
language I didn't recognise. As both were fair-skinned and the
little girl was blonde, I assume that they were European and
speaking a European language (unless they were testing their
knowledge of Swahili). What about Turkish (or Russian) where
speakers may be European or Asian?


Finn, Estonian and Hungaian don't sound a bit "European"


People I've spoken to have said that Portugese sounds more like Russian
than like a European language.

On the other hand French and Spanish certainly sound European but are
spoken by people in many countries outside Europe.

--
message by the incredible Robin May.
"The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures

Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous?
http://robinmay.fotopic.net

Richard J. August 26th 04 09:32 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
Robin May wrote:
Hatunen wrote the following in:


On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:38:42 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Harrison"
wrote:


Hmm, how would they know that a language is "not European"? On the
Piccadilly Line on Saturday (Hounslow West to Hammersmith) I was
sitting opposite a father and daughter who were speaking a
language I didn't recognise. As both were fair-skinned and the
little girl was blonde, I assume that they were European and
speaking a European language (unless they were testing their
knowledge of Swahili). What about Turkish (or Russian) where
speakers may be European or Asian?


Finn, Estonian and Hungaian don't sound a bit "European"


People I've spoken to have said that Portugese sounds more like
Russian than like a European language.


Isn't Russian a European language?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Niklas Karlsson August 27th 04 11:02 AM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
In article , Richard J. wrote:
Robin May wrote:
People I've spoken to have said that Portugese sounds more like
Russian than like a European language.


Isn't Russian a European language?


I'd have thought so. I also haven't found it to sound much at all like
Portuguese, and I've been exposed to a lot of speech in both
languages...

Niklas


Ian Tindale August 27th 04 06:24 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
Why was the original film called "Passport to Pimlico"?

I mean, a passport isn't to a specific place, like perhaps a visa is. You
don't say 'a passport to Australia' or 'a passport to China' or the like.
It's just a passport. It might contain a visa to Oz or China or Pimlico,
but it's not a passport to anywhere in particular - it's just a passport.

--
Ian Tindale

Terry Harper August 27th 04 07:49 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
"Ian Tindale" wrote in message
...
Why was the original film called "Passport to Pimlico"?


I presume that you know the plot of the film? The point was that you needed
a passport to visit Pimlico, after UDI.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm
E-mail:
URL:
http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/



Mark Brader August 27th 04 09:31 PM

Passport to Pimlico - 2004 version?
 
Ian Tindale:
Why was the original film called "Passport to Pimlico"?


Terry Harper:
The point was that you needed a passport to visit Pimlico...


Yeah, but that doesn't really answer Ian's point:

I mean, a passport isn't to a specific place...


Note that people also say things like "your passport to adventure".
I think the answer is that back in the days when passports were
relatively rare and it was a big deal to have one, a passport *might*
be good only for a specific place. Presumably whoever chose the title
just liked the way it sounded by using "to".
--
Mark Brader "Look, sir, we can't just do nothing."
Toronto "Why not? It's usually best."
-- Lawrence of Arabia

My text in this article is in the public domain.


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