Time between leaving train and signing off.

Generally nil (typically duties book off on the platform, although some
do have up to 7 minutes at the end).

According to District Dave's website
(http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave...318_duty.html), there's one
duty on the District Line with an hour and six minutes between leaving
the train at Barking EB and booking off at Earl's Court.
(Incidentally, this website's well worth a look at - the story about
him ending up at South Harrow is HILARIOUS!!!)

On 1 Sep 2004, Boltar wrote:

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message ...

OK the Piccadilly Line between Holborn and Cockfosters is relabelled
North and South. What about the rest of the line? What about the
Jubillee or the Bakerloo lines, how would you label them?

You label them in whatever direction they're going at that station
according to the map. You don't show it going north on a map then write
"westbound" on all the station signs.

There's also the issue of direction on the map vs direction on the ground,
which aren't always the same; the former corresponds to passengers' mental
model of the network, but it's also subject to change.

Or better yet do what other systems do and label them by their end
stations. Eg towards cockfosters or towards heathrow/uxbridge. This was
also done on the underground years ago. Not sure if it still is these
days.

I find labelling by terminus completely unhelpful - unless you know the
network well enough to know the terminus of every line (which most
Londoners probably do, but visitors certainly don't), it means you need a
map to interpret the signs. And how would it work on lines that branch?
"Towards Edgware, High Barnet and Mill Hill East" is a bit of a mouthful.
How would it work on the circle line? I think Liverpool Street would not
be improved by a platform called "Towards Hammersmith, Uxbridge, Amersham,
Chesham (sometimes), Watford and Liverpool Street (via Baker Street before
Tower Hill)".

I think this is a matter of taste: i like the system where each direction
has one consistent name over the whole line. Some of the problems with
this could be overcome by using 'fractional' compass points: the Picc, for
example, could have North-East and South-West directions (although in the
case of Uxbridge etc, this would be some new meaning of the term
'south-west' of which most people were previously not aware). Don't ask me
how you'd name the Jubilee.

Oh, and the Circle line directions should be Clockwise and Anti-Clockwise.
This is not an opinion - this is a fact, proven by science.

Perhaps (and this is not an entirely serious suggestion) we just need to
pick a pair of names which don't have any specific geographical
connotation and use those consistently along the whole line: Up and Down
come close, are nicely traditional, but can't really be applied inside
London; i suggest Ana and Kata, these being the traditional extra
directions in maths.

Hmm. It would be nice if, wherever two lines shared a platform or had
crossplatform or otherwise parallel interchange, their directions were
coherent (ie at Finsbury Park, Victoria ana and Piccadilly ana were next
to each other). Apart from the circle line (and ignoring Woodford and
Heathrow), would the network support that? Let's see - we can start with
the Metropolitan, declare it to have its kata end at Aldgate, then walk
along and transfer the direction to the lines it runs along with (my
notation is line: kata end (determining line @ interchange
station)):

Met: Aldgate
Picc: Cockfosters (Met @ Rayners Lane)
Jubilee: Stratford (Met @ Wembley Park)
H&C: Barking (Met @ Baker Street)
District: Upminster (Picc @ Ealing Common)
Victoria: Walthamstow (Picc @ Finsbury Park)
Central: Epping (District @ Ealing Broadway)
Bakerloo: Elephant & Castle (Met @ Baker Street - weak)
Northern: Morden (Bakerloo @ Embankment - weak)
W&C: Waterloo (Northern @ Bank - weak)
ELL: has no parallel interchanges
DLR: incoherent (District @ Bank vs Central @ Stratford)
NLL: incoherent (District @ Richmond vs Jubilee @ West Ham)

Have i missed any interchanges in the centre of town? The map doesn't show
any as parallel, but they might be in reality. Anyway, basically, it
works, with 'kata' more or less meaning 'east' - the Northern line is the
only major exception. Funny how all the lines with branches have them at
the ana end.

tom

--
OK, mostly because of Tom, but not only because of his bloody irritating character and songs.

Tom Anderson wrote:
On 1 Sep 2004, Boltar wrote:


"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message ...


OK the Piccadilly Line between Holborn and Cockfosters is relabelled
North and South. What about the rest of the line? What about the
Jubillee or the Bakerloo lines, how would you label them?

You label them in whatever direction they're going at that station
according to the map. You don't show it going north on a map then write
"westbound" on all the station signs.


There's also the issue of direction on the map vs direction on the ground,
which aren't always the same; the former corresponds to passengers' mental
model of the network, but it's also subject to change.


Or better yet do what other systems do and label them by their end
stations. Eg towards cockfosters or towards heathrow/uxbridge. This was
also done on the underground years ago. Not sure if it still is these
days.


I find labelling by terminus completely unhelpful -

Having lived in Paris (where they label by terminus) and London
(labelled by quasi-direction), I don't find it unhelpful at all.

unless you know the
network well enough to know the terminus of every line (which most
Londoners probably do, but visitors certainly don't)

But you think they would know that Westminster is East of South
Kensington, or that East Finchley is South of West Finchley?

, it means you need a
map to interpret the signs.

As, indeed, you do now. As Chris Tarrant says, "It's only easy if you
know" (or whatever it is).

And how would it work on lines that branch?
"Towards Edgware, High Barnet and Mill Hill East" is a bit of a mouthful.

Slightly. The fact that LU has more branches than (say) Paris, does make
more termini, though they certainly do this too. "Direction Villejuif
Louis Aragon/Mairie D/Ivry" is one, whilst another is the incredibly
long-winded "Direction Gabriel Peri
Asnieres-Gennevilliers/St-Denis-Universite" (that's only two - they just
have some stupidly long names for some of the termini).

How would it work on the circle line?

Wouldn't clockwise and anticlockwise be blindingly obvious? (That's not
a dig at you - I just can't believe it's not used already.) The current
labelling is chronically bad. If I am at Liverpool Street, I don't have
a CLUE (I've been there enough times - it just is not intuitive enough
for me to remember) which is East and which is West.

I think Liverpool Street would not
be improved by a platform called "Towards Hammersmith, Uxbridge, Amersham,
Chesham (sometimes), Watford and Liverpool Street (via Baker Street before
Tower Hill)".

It wouldn't hurt - at least you would have a clue if you were going to
one of those places - but it's even *more* long-winded than the
terminus-naming of course.

I think this is a matter of taste: i like the system where each direction
has one consistent name over the whole line.

I would too, if it were of any help, but to be honest I don't find it
particularly helpful (except on straightish lines) anyway.

Some of the problems with
this could be overcome by using 'fractional' compass points: the Picc, for
example, could have North-East and South-West directions (although in the
case of Uxbridge etc, this would be some new meaning of the term
'south-west' of which most people were previously not aware).

Well, if we wanted it to be twice as complicated as now, yep :-)

Don't ask me
how you'd name the Jubilee.

Stanmore - Stratford? :-) Easy, innit?

[snip lots of stuff where I'm just *sure* you're taking the ****!]

To be fair, the only downside of terminus-naming, compared to how it
works in Paris is the fact that trains almost always terminate at the
terminus in Paris, whereas in London they can end their journey at
various locations. But at least the passenger is on the right platform
and going in the right direction.

dave

dave

Tom Anderson wrote:

Oh, and the Circle line directions should be Clockwise and
Anti-Clockwise.
This is not an opinion - this is a fact, proven by science.

What is this "fact" proven by science? Personally, I find it much
quicker to relate Inner Rail and Outer Rail to a direction than
Clockwise and Anti-Clockwise, which I find unnecessarily indirect. (I
have to remember first which way analogue clocks move, which to a
mathematician is the "wrong" or negative direction. Why people still
want to tell the time by looking at the angles of two sticks is a
mystery to me.)

Perhaps (and this is not an entirely serious suggestion) we just
need to pick a pair of names which don't have any specific
geographical connotation and use those consistently along the
whole line: Up and Down come close, are nicely traditional, but
can't really be applied inside London; i suggest Ana and Kata,
these being the traditional extra directions in maths.

I think your traditions are rather younger than mine.

Hmm. It would be nice if, wherever two lines shared a platform or
had crossplatform or otherwise parallel interchange, their
directions were coherent (ie at Finsbury Park, Victoria ana and
Piccadilly ana were next to each other). Apart from the circle
line (and ignoring Woodford and Heathrow), would the network
support that? Let's see - we can start with the Metropolitan,
declare it to have its kata end at Aldgate, then walk along and
transfer the direction to the lines it runs along with (my
notation is line: kata end (determining line @ interchange
station)):

Met: Aldgate
Picc: Cockfosters (Met @ Rayners Lane)
Jubilee: Stratford (Met @ Wembley Park)
H&C: Barking (Met @ Baker Street)
District: Upminster (Picc @ Ealing Common)
Victoria: Walthamstow (Picc @ Finsbury Park)
Central: Epping (District @ Ealing Broadway)
Bakerloo: Elephant & Castle (Met @ Baker Street - weak)
Northern: Morden (Bakerloo @ Embankment - weak)
W&C: Waterloo (Northern @ Bank - weak)
ELL: has no parallel interchanges
DLR: incoherent (District @ Bank vs Central @ Stratford)
NLL: incoherent (District @ Richmond vs Jubilee @ West Ham)

Have i missed any interchanges in the centre of town? The map
doesn't show any as parallel, but they might be in reality.
Anyway, basically, it works, with 'kata' more or less meaning
'east' - the Northern line is the only major exception.

Warren Street to Stockwell: via Victoria line ana-bound; via Northern
Line kata-bound.

Similarly, the cross-platform interchanges between the Victoria Line and
the Bank branch of the Northern Line would be between an ana-bound and a
kata-bound train.

An interesting intellectual exercise, but please don't get a job in LU!
:-)
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

James wrote:
Time between leaving train and signing off.

Generally nil (typically duties book off on the platform, although
some do have up to 7 minutes at the end).

According to District Dave's website
(http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave...318_duty.html), there's one
duty on the District Line with an hour and six minutes between leaving
the train at Barking EB and booking off at Earl's Court.
(Incidentally, this website's well worth a look at - the story about
him ending up at South Harrow is HILARIOUS!!!)

This is a "route learning guide" for errant District Lne drivers when
approaching Hanger Lane Junction.

http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hlj/HLJOriginal.html

This is a "route learning guide" for errant District Lne drivers when
approaching Hanger Lane Junction.

So has a District Line train gone to South Harrow or Rayners Lane in recent
times?

Burkey

JWBA68 wrote:
This is a "route learning guide" for errant District Lne drivers when
approaching Hanger Lane Junction.

So has a District Line train gone to South Harrow or Rayners Lane in
recent times?


Now what on earth leads you to ask that question? :-)

Not for several months that I'm aware of

"JWBA68" wrote in message
...

So has a District Line train gone to South Harrow
or Rayners Lane in recent times?

There was the time that a Piccadilly Line driver leaving Uxbridge accepted
the wrong signal at Rayners and ended up in Harrow-On-The-Hill, whereupon
the driver of the adjacent Metropolitan Line train got out, walked across
the platform and handed him a tube map.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Tom Anderson wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 1 Sep 2004:

I find labelling by terminus completely unhelpful - unless you know the
network well enough to know the terminus of every line (which most
Londoners probably do, but visitors certainly don't), it means you need a
map to interpret the signs.

Oh no, it's much easier! As a young adult, I lived in Paris before I
lived in London, and had enormous difficulty working out how the London
system worked, compared to the extraordinarily easy Paris system, which
labels by terminus. Doesn't help that I have enormous difficulty
knowing my left from my right, or my east from my west.... I can just
about manage north and south, but that's it!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/

Annabel Smyth wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 1 Sep 2004:

I find labelling by terminus completely unhelpful - unless you know
the network well enough to know the terminus of every line (which
most Londoners probably do, but visitors certainly don't), it means
you need a map to interpret the signs.

Oh no, it's much easier! As a young adult, I lived in Paris before I
lived in London, and had enormous difficulty working out how the
London system worked, compared to the extraordinarily easy Paris
system, which labels by terminus. Doesn't help that I have enormous
difficulty
knowing my left from my right, or my east from my west.... I can just
about manage north and south, but that's it!

If you know the city (whichever it is) it probably is easier. But how about
people who have just got off a plane at Heathrow and there are two trains
sitting there, one with Cockfosters and the other with Arnos Grove on the
front and you want to get to Morden (say)?