Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

Hi everyone

My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.

He bought a ticket from Harpenden to London with a Young Persons Discount
railcard. His Young persons had expired a couple of days ago. Not sure if
he realised if it had or not.

Two men in suits with Thameslink ID's (Undercover RPI's) checked tickets,
and said his ticket was invalid as YP was out of date. Would this
constitute fare evasion / another offence ?

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to court.

Any advice on the penalties etc ?

I will confirm all these points when I speak to my colleague.

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

"Zac" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone

My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure
if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.

He bought a ticket from Harpenden to London with a Young Persons Discount
railcard. His Young persons had expired a couple of days ago. Not sure
if
he realised if it had or not.

Two men in suits with Thameslink ID's (Undercover RPI's) checked tickets,
and said his ticket was invalid as YP was out of date. Would this
constitute fare evasion / another offence ?

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to
court.

Any advice on the penalties etc ?

I will confirm all these points when I speak to my colleague.


Surely whoever sold him the ticket is at fault for not spotting the out of
date railcard.

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure
if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.

He bought a ticket from Harpenden to London with a Young Persons
Discount
railcard. His Young persons had expired a couple of days ago. Not sure
if
he realised if it had or not.

Two men in suits with Thameslink ID's (Undercover RPI's) checked
tickets,
and said his ticket was invalid as YP was out of date. Would this
constitute fare evasion / another offence ?

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room
where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to
court.

Any advice on the penalties etc ?

I will confirm all these points when I speak to my colleague.


Surely whoever sold him the ticket is at fault for not spotting the out of
date railcard.

Ticket was from a machine

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

"Zac" wrote in message
...


Ticket was from a machine


Pity

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:38:43 +0000 (UTC), "Zac"
wrote:

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to court.

Not again. This heavy-handedness is getting ridiculous. Surely this
(like the last one that was discussed either on here or on uk.railway)
is precisely the kind of circumstances for which the Penalty Fares
system is intended?

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

It is your responsibility to purchase the correct ticket. If you buy it from
a machine you must have a valid discount card at the time of travel. If it
expired it doesnt matter how long ago....its expired. There are a number of
criteria for a young persons railcard....perhaps your friend no longer meets
them. How many days is...'just a few'?
Its like an adult buying a child ticket....its not valid.
Is it possible your friend somehow antagonised these guys......

However....it does seem a huge over reaction to this minor infringement. But
remember they probably get lots of people saying they didnt know it just
expired etc etc all the time.
Its unusual to get the police involved unles there was something else that
made them question that deeply.
I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room', sounds very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone call?

If its his first time caught he will probably get a letter saying they
thought about it and decided its in no ones interest to prosecute. 2nd
time....they will prosecute and its up to a judge.
Conviscation of tickets? The small print says its belongs to them at all
times and if they want they can take it if you are not fulfilling the terms
of the contract you both entered into.

The penalty fare system is not for people who have purchased a ticket
without the valid cards...its for no ticket/wrong ticket situations. By
purchasing a ticket that he isn't entitled to...sorry but its classed as
fraud.

No i dont work there. I travel on it.....and frankly i'm fed up with people
free loading......if we all paid up then perhaps we could get a decent
service etc.

Mal

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:54:26 GMT, "Malcolm & Nika"
wrote:

I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room', sounds very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone call?

Is it legal for for him to be detained by RPIs (as opposed to BTP) for
longer than is necessary to verify name and address?

If its his first time caught he will probably get a letter saying they
thought about it and decided its in no ones interest to prosecute. 2nd
time....they will prosecute and its up to a judge.
Conviscation of tickets? The small print says its belongs to them at all
times and if they want they can take it if you are not fulfilling the terms
of the contract you both entered into.

The penalty fare system is not for people who have purchased a ticket
without the valid cards...its for no ticket/wrong ticket situations. By
purchasing a ticket that he isn't entitled to...sorry but its classed as
fraud.

So what would the precise offence be to justify the fine quoted?
Having the wrong ticket in a penalty fare area does not appear to be a
byelaw breach but infringement of PF regulations (of which I have not
found the details).

No i dont work there. I travel on it.....and frankly i'm fed up with people
free loading......if we all paid up then perhaps we could get a decent
service etc.

I would not classify inadvertent non-renewal of a railcard as
freeloading.
--
Peter Lawrence

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

"Malcolm & Nika" wrote in message
...
It is your responsibility to purchase the correct ticket. If you buy it
from
a machine you must have a valid discount card at the time of travel. If it
expired it doesnt matter how long ago....its expired. There are a number
of
criteria for a young persons railcard....perhaps your friend no longer
meets
them. How many days is...'just a few'?
Its like an adult buying a child ticket....its not valid.
Is it possible your friend somehow antagonised these guys......

However....it does seem a huge over reaction to this minor infringement.
But
remember they probably get lots of people saying they didnt know it just
expired etc etc all the time.
Its unusual to get the police involved unles there was something else that
made them question that deeply.
I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room', sounds very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone call?

If its his first time caught he will probably get a letter saying they
thought about it and decided its in no ones interest to prosecute. 2nd
time....they will prosecute and its up to a judge.
Conviscation of tickets? The small print says its belongs to them at all
times and if they want they can take it if you are not fulfilling the
terms
of the contract you both entered into.

The penalty fare system is not for people who have purchased a ticket
without the valid cards...its for no ticket/wrong ticket situations. By
purchasing a ticket that he isn't entitled to...sorry but its classed as
fraud.

No i dont work there. I travel on it.....and frankly i'm fed up with
people
free loading......if we all paid up then perhaps we could get a decent
service etc.

Mal


In order to commit fraud, you normally have to knowingly trying to deceive
someone. It does not seem to be the case that it was intentional here.

The railway companies would be better off ensuring that they have working
ticket machines, enough of them and manned booths. Perhaps even ticket
machines on trains. I have had to get on trains many times without a ticket
and try and buy one later, as the machines were out of order and the ticket
offices closed. The real freeloaders are few and far between.

Mikael

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

It is your responsibility to purchase the correct ticket. If you buy it
from
a machine you must have a valid discount card at the time of travel. If it
expired it doesnt matter how long ago....its expired. There are a number
of
criteria for a young persons railcard....perhaps your friend no longer
meets
them. How many days is...'just a few'?

It was 8 days.


Its like an adult buying a child ticket....its not valid.
Is it possible your friend somehow antagonised these guys......


No he didn't,

However....it does seem a huge over reaction to this minor infringement.
But
remember they probably get lots of people saying they didnt know it just
expired etc etc all the time.
Its unusual to get the police involved unles there was something else that
made them question that deeply.
I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room',

It was actuallt there office in West Hampstead

sounds very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone call?


No


If its his first time caught he will probably get a letter saying they
thought about it and decided its in no ones interest to prosecute. 2nd
time....they will prosecute and its up to a judge.
Conviscation of tickets? The small print says its belongs to them at all
times and if they want they can take it if you are not fulfilling the
terms
of the contract you both entered into.

The penalty fare system is not for people who have purchased a ticket
without the valid cards...its for no ticket/wrong ticket situations. By
purchasing a ticket that he isn't entitled to...sorry but its classed as
fraud.

No i dont work there. I travel on it.....and frankly i'm fed up with
people
free loading......if we all paid up then perhaps we could get a decent
service etc.

Mal

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

Mikael Armstrong wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 23 Sep 2004:

The railway companies would be better off ensuring that they have working
ticket machines, enough of them and manned booths. Perhaps even ticket
machines on trains. I have had to get on trains many times without a ticket
and try and buy one later, as the machines were out of order and the ticket
offices closed. The real freeloaders are few and far between.

They do exist! I remember in Paris, before magnetic screening was
introduced by after the "tricoteuses" had stopped punching tickets
manually, you had to introduce your ticket into a machine that punched
it, and this opened the gates. Unfortunately, it did not cancel the
ticket, so an awful lot of people just used the same ticket over and
over again, until the magnetic readers were introduced. I gather from
the French transport museum website that these punchers were only
intended to be a temporary measure, but I was there, and they looked
rather permanent to me.... I think the RATP PTB had to do a quick
rethink.

Maybe one day travelcards that allow a reduction in price will be on
smart cards that can be touched to a reader, and any allowable deduction
then made automatically, and a prompt to renew the card when it is
expiring can also be issued. Actually, I've never been asked to show my
card when my ticket is checked, although I'm always prepared to do so -
perhaps it's my honest face..... ;-)
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 11 September 2004

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

Birching, it's the only language these scumbags understand, (pulls on
dirty old mac to go to the conservative party conference, no one will
know it's me)

Zac wrote:
Hi everyone

My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.

He bought a ticket from Harpenden to London with a Young Persons Discount
railcard. His Young persons had expired a couple of days ago. Not sure if
he realised if it had or not.

Two men in suits with Thameslink ID's (Undercover RPI's) checked tickets,
and said his ticket was invalid as YP was out of date. Would this
constitute fare evasion / another offence ?

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to court.

Any advice on the penalties etc ?

I will confirm all these points when I speak to my colleague.

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

"Mikael Armstrong" wrote in message
...
In order to commit fraud, you normally have to knowingly trying to deceive
someone. It does not seem to be the case that it was intentional here.

Indeed not, Mikael. Something similar happened to me a couple of years ago.
The plea had to be guilty as the named offence was carrying an invalid
ticket or something similar. However, on the plea form, I wrote that if the
offence had been "knowingly carrying an invalid ticket with intent to
defraud" I would be pleading not guilty. When it came to court, the
magistrate told me that intention is taken into account, suggested that I
change my plea and offered to reschedule the hearing. So I did. At the
rescheduled hearing, a different magistrate threw the case out. That might
be useful knowledge for this chap on the Thameslink.

L
-----------------------------------------------
Louis Barfe - www.louisbarfe.com

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

"Henry" wrote in message
...

Surely whoever sold him the ticket is at fault for not spotting the out of
date railcard.


When did this country ditch the idea of personal responsibility?

Surely if you make a mistake put up your hand and pay the penalty.

DFF

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:34:44 +0100, "Darren"
wrote:

Surely if you make a mistake put up your hand and pay the penalty.

Indeed. The *appropriate* penalty, which in my mind here is a Penalty
Fare, not prosecution, as it seems clear there was no intent to
defraud.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

Annabel Smyth wrote:

Mikael Armstrong wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 23 Sep 2004:


The railway companies would be better off ensuring that they have working
ticket machines, enough of them and manned booths. Perhaps even ticket
machines on trains. I have had to get on trains many times without a ticket
and try and buy one later, as the machines were out of order and the ticket
offices closed. The real freeloaders are few and far between.


They do exist! I remember in Paris, before magnetic screening was
introduced by after the "tricoteuses" had stopped punching tickets
manually,

Do you mean poinçonneur/-euse[1] and, if not, what's the difference?

Dave

[1] As in http://www.paroles.net/chansons/20276.htm

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:54:26 GMT, "Malcolm & Nika"
wrote:

I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He
was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room', sounds
very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone
call?

Is it legal for for him to be detained by RPIs (as opposed to BTP) for
longer than is necessary to verify name and address?


You are assuming he was actually detained rather than being asked to
accompany them to the office for his details to be verified and further
questioned asked.

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

Dave Newt wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 23 Sep 2004:



Annabel Smyth wrote:

Mikael Armstrong wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 23 Sep 2004:

The railway companies would be better off ensuring that they have
working
ticket machines, enough of them and manned booths. Perhaps even ticket
machines on trains. I have had to get on trains many times without a ticket
and try and buy one later, as the machines were out of order and the ticket
offices closed. The real freeloaders are few and far between.

They do exist! I remember in Paris, before magnetic screening was
introduced by after the "tricoteuses" had stopped punching tickets
manually,

Do you mean poinçonneur/-euse[1] and, if not, what's the difference?

I do, but I think they were popularly referred to as "tricoteuses" -
could be wrong, though.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 11 September 2004

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

In message , Neil Williams
writes

Surely if you make a mistake put up your hand and pay the penalty.

Indeed. The *appropriate* penalty, which in my mind here is a Penalty
Fare, not prosecution, as it seems clear there was no intent to
defraud.

Does it?

You are in possession of all the facts in this case then, and can
determine intent?

Just, maybe, perhaps he thought he could get away with it so didn't
bother to renew his card.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

"Steve Fitzgerald" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Neil Williams
writes

Surely if you make a mistake put up your hand and pay the penalty.

Indeed. The *appropriate* penalty, which in my mind here is a Penalty
Fare, not prosecution, as it seems clear there was no intent to
defraud.

Does it?

You are in possession of all the facts in this case then, and can
determine intent?

Just, maybe, perhaps he thought he could get away with it so didn't
bother to renew his card.

Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. However unless he admitted knowing the card
had expired I don't see how they can prove intent. If the card was 2 months
of out of date maybe, but not a few days.

Peter Smyth

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

--- "Steve Fitzgerald" wrote:

Just, maybe, perhaps he thought he could get away with it so didn't
bother to renew his card.

I thought this country had a system of "innocent until proven guilty". Not
"innocent unless just, maybe, guilty".

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

It is the customers responsibility to ensure all his discount documents are
with him/her and in date.

There could be a defence if he didn't know and presented them to the ticket
office and the ticket office still sold him the ticket. However, if the
ticket was bought from a machine it wouldn't look good.

Assuming he is a student and the new academic year has or is about to start
it would be reasonable to expect his card was out of date.

S


"Solar Penguin" wrote in message
...

--- "Steve Fitzgerald" wrote:

Just, maybe, perhaps he thought he could get away with it so didn't
bother to renew his card.

I thought this country had a system of "innocent until proven guilty".
Not
"innocent unless just, maybe, guilty".

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

"Zac" wrote:
My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.
[and so on]

Sounds like either he failed the attitude test or they are having
a crackdown.

Your friend is clearly in the wrong -- he travelled without a
valid ticket.

And on the question of intent, isn't this a strict liability offence?


Matt Ashby
www.mattashby.com

Thameslink Fare Evasion
 

Nope.

You have to show intent either by action or admission.

S


"Matt Ashby" wrote in message
om...
"Zac" wrote:
My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure
if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.
[and so on]

Sounds like either he failed the attitude test or they are having
a crackdown.

Your friend is clearly in the wrong -- he travelled without a
valid ticket.

And on the question of intent, isn't this a strict liability offence?


Matt Ashby
www.mattashby.com