UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

Hi i have a few qurstions to ask regarding to the underground trains that
always made me wonder.

1) Firstly when a train goes does the first car pull and the last one push ?
otherwise how just one car can pull so many other cards same size as itself ?
In the rasilway trains one carriage is pulling and the last is pushing i was
wondering if the same happens to the underground trains.

2) I noticed sometimes in a train with many carriages they put in a middle an
engine car but they have it as a passenger car not doing anything, howcome they
didnt put a normal passenger car and they put an engine car in the middle as
well ? (usually circle line or metropolitan)

3) Going back to the past i would like to ask what was the purpose exactly of
the so called "prototype trains" back in 1986 like the green one here
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23602 and here
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23618

Did these trains ever carried passengers or they just used them to test the
engineering of the forthcoming trains ? if thats what they were used for
howcome they were completely furnished inside with seats maps and everything ?

Lastly were these prototype trains in service long andf how many were created
if anyone knows

thanks a lot guys and gals !

-a true underground fan from uxbridge !

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

"Soniakostas" wrote in message


1) Firstly when a train goes does the first car pull and the last
one push ? otherwise how just one car can pull so many other cards
same size as itself ? In the rasilway trains one carriage is
pulling and the last is pushing i was wondering if the same happens
to the underground trains.

The front car pulls; the back car pushes; and some of the cars in the middle
push and pull at the same time!


2) I noticed sometimes in a train with many carriages they put in a
middle an engine car but they have it as a passenger car not doing
anything, howcome they didnt put a normal passenger car and they
put an engine car in the middle as well ? (usually circle line or
metropolitan)

The theory is that additional driving cabs make the formations more
versatile.


3) Going back to the past i would like to ask what was the purpose
exactly of the so called "prototype trains" back in 1986 like the
green one here http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23602 and here
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23618

Did these trains ever carried passengers or they just used them to
test the engineering of the forthcoming trains ? if thats what they
were used for howcome they were completely furnished inside with
seats maps and everything ?

Lastly were these prototype trains in service long andf how many
were created if anyone knows

There were 3 of these prototype trains - each of four cars (each of the
sets was painted a different colour). They were used as trials for the 1992
tube stock which is used on the Central Line and the Waterloo and City Line.
As prototypes they saw passenger service on the Jubilee Line; it is a
Jubilee Line map that you can see in the second picture and even Jubilee
Line passengers deserve a few seats.


Bob

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

In message , Boltar
writes

No. Usually roughly every 2nd car has its own motors but on the 1992
stock on the central line every car has motors.
It's a long time since I worked on the tube, but both "38" and "62"
stock had six out of eight cars as motor cars( that is driving the
train) whilst the non motor cars had the compressors underneath them.
Cars with driving facilities were usually two a train, making two
individual sets driven(operated)from the front.
--
Clive.

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

In article ,
(Clive Coleman) wrote:

In message , Boltar
writes

No. Usually roughly every 2nd car has its own motors but on the 1992
stock on the central line every car has motors.
It's a long time since I worked on the tube, but both "38" and "62"
stock had six out of eight cars as motor cars( that is driving the
train) whilst the non motor cars had the compressors underneath them.
Cars with driving facilities were usually two a train, making two
individual sets driven(operated)from the front.

From the 1938 TS up to the 1962 stock there were 2 trailers per 7 or 8 car
train with one motor per motor bogie.

The 1967 and subsequent stocks had two motors per motor bogie so a
slightly higher trailer car ratio, four out of eight in 1967 stock, three
out of seven in 1972 stock (and 1996 stock too when it is extended to
seven cars) and two out of six in other stocks apart from 1992 stock in
which every axle is motored.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

"Iain" wrote in message
...

Definitely three. It was 15 years ago but I'm pretty sure that each
design was painted/liveried in a different colour: one was green and one
blue, the other might have been either yellow or red. I assume the idea
behind this was for easy identification on the feedback form, eg "I
preferred the green train because ..."

The 1986 Prototype Stock actually consisted of three four-car units, two
from Metro-Cammell (one green, one red) and one from BREL Ltd. at Derby
(blue). They operated on the Jubilee line for a while, in six car
formations, before being withdrawn in August 1989 and stored at Acton (the
BREL train) and Neasden (the Metro-Cammell trains, prior to disposal or
preservation.

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

On 25 Oct 2004 22:15:20 GMT, (Soniakostas) wrote:

Hi i have a few qurstions to ask regarding to the underground trains that
always made me wonder.

1) Firstly when a train goes does the first car pull and the last one push ?
otherwise how just one car can pull so many other cards same size as itself ?
In the rasilway trains one carriage is pulling and the last is pushing i was
wondering if the same happens to the underground trains.

Within a "train" of underground carriages you will typically get two
units attached to each other. On some lines each unit has 4 cars - e.g.
the Victoria and Metropolitan Lines have 8 car trains while on others
you get a mix of 4 cars and 3 cars to give a 7 car train (Piccadilly
Line or Circle / Hammersmith and City)

Depending on the configuration of the train some carriages have motors
(what you term an engine) and others don't have any - called trailer
cars. A bit like an articulated lorry where the front bit has the
engine and the back bit - the trailer - carries whatever is being
transported from a to be.

Now I might get shot down in flames from one of our resident drivers or
engineers here but one way to tell which is which is to look at a train
on the opposite track and see which wheels have the "shoe" attached to
pick up the electric power. If a carriage has shoes then it is a motor
car, if there are no shoes then it is a trailer car. The best lines to
see this on are the sub surface lines like the Met or District lines
because there are two tracks side by side.

2) I noticed sometimes in a train with many carriages they put in a middle an
engine car but they have it as a passenger car not doing anything, howcome they
didnt put a normal passenger car and they put an engine car in the middle as
well ? (usually circle line or metropolitan)

This is partly to do with platform lengths because some lines can only
take 6 or 7 car trains and not 8 cars. On some Circle and Hammersmith
and City trains the end passenger car actually has a very small driving
console behind a panel so the train can be driven in the depot from this
position to join up to another four car train.

The other reason is that we have to be able to take trains apart to
allow them to be maintained or repaired if something breaks down on
them. If you had two seven car trains and in train number one the 3 car
unit had to fixed you'd have the four car bit spare. For train number
two the 4 car unit needs to be fixed then the 3 car section is spare. We
can then join the two spare sections together to get a working 7 car
train.

3) Going back to the past i would like to ask what was the purpose exactly of
the so called "prototype trains" back in 1986 like the green one here
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23602 and here
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23618

Did these trains ever carried passengers or they just used them to test the
engineering of the forthcoming trains ? if thats what they were used for
howcome they were completely furnished inside with seats maps and everything ?

Lots of people have already provided answers to this but you right in
that the trains were developed to test some different engineering bits
but also to test different interior designs with the public.

Hope that info is useful.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Within a "train" of underground carriages you will typically get two
units attached to each other. On some lines each unit has 4 cars - e.g.
the Victoria and Metropolitan Lines have 8 car trains while on others
you get a mix of 4 cars and 3 cars to give a 7 car train (Piccadilly
Line or Circle / Hammersmith and City)

Piccadilly and Circle trains are all 6 cars. Piccadilly trains are made up
of two 3 car units while Circle trains are three 2 car units. The Bakerloo
has the only 7 car trains at present though the Jubilee is planning to
extend its trains from 6 to 7 cars in the next year or so.

Depending on the configuration of the train some carriages have motors
(what you term an engine) and others don't have any - called trailer
cars. A bit like an articulated lorry where the front bit has the
engine and the back bit - the trailer - carries whatever is being
transported from a to be.

A further distinction used to be the number of motors per bogie but all
modern stock has two.

Now I might get shot down in flames from one of our resident drivers or
engineers here but one way to tell which is which is to look at a train
on the opposite track and see which wheels have the "shoe" attached to
pick up the electric power. If a carriage has shoes then it is a motor
car, if there are no shoes then it is a trailer car. The best lines to
see this on are the sub surface lines like the Met or District lines
because there are two tracks side by side.

That will confuse you with some stocks, most notably the Central Line
stock where every axle is motored and the 8 car trains are made up of 2
car units of three types.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On 25 Oct 2004 22:15:20 GMT, (Soniakostas) wrote:

Hi i have a few qurstions to ask regarding to the underground trains that
always made me wonder.

1) Firstly when a train goes does the first car pull and the last one push
?
otherwise how just one car can pull so many other cards same size as
itself ?
In the rasilway trains one carriage is pulling and the last is pushing i
was
wondering if the same happens to the underground trains.

Within a "train" of underground carriages you will typically get two
units attached to each other. On some lines each unit has 4 cars - e.g.
the Victoria and Metropolitan Lines have 8 car trains while on others
you get a mix of 4 cars and 3 cars to give a 7 car train (Piccadilly
Line or Circle / Hammersmith and City)

Depending on the configuration of the train some carriages have motors
(what you term an engine) and others don't have any - called trailer
cars. A bit like an articulated lorry where the front bit has the
engine and the back bit - the trailer - carries whatever is being
transported from a to be.

Now I might get shot down in flames from one of our resident drivers or
engineers here but one way to tell which is which is to look at a train
on the opposite track and see which wheels have the "shoe" attached to
pick up the electric power. If a carriage has shoes then it is a motor
car, if there are no shoes then it is a trailer car. The best lines to
see this on are the sub surface lines like the Met or District lines
because there are two tracks side by side.


Your method of indentifying motor and non-motor cars is ok. However the
Piccadilly has 6 car trains, four motor cars and two trailers the first,
third, fourth and sixth cars being the motors. Most of the "middle" motor
cars have a limited driving position to allow movements in depot when
uncoupled. A few have full cabs to allow then to be attached at either end
of another unit to provide flexibility when a unit has to be withdrawn for
maintenance or repairs.

The Circle, the Hammersmith & City and the District Edgware Rd-Wimbledon
service use the same train. The are made up of three x two car units. The
outer cars are motors, the next cars are trailers whereas the middle two
cars can be either way round but one will be a motor and one a trailer.

District "main line" trains are of the same configuration as those on the
Piccadilly although they are obviously of a different design.

Metropolitan trains are of two four car units comprising a motor, two
trailers and a motor each.

Sorry not familar with the stocks on other lines.

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

Hi and thanks for all the replies !

I found it a bit stranghe though and very costly for the underground to
actually built 3 trains for the public to choose.

Usually companies (like Bus companies) choose the model themselevs then they
buy few dozens of them they wopuldnt actually built 3 different busses and then
get rid of them

I dont know just sounds abit strange and indeed for the rest of the new trains
of the underground (waterloo/northern) they didnt have any prototype trains

you guys agree with me ?

cheers

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Now I might get shot down in flames from one of
our resident drivers or engineers here but one
way to tell which is which is to look at a train on
the opposite track and see which wheels have
the "shoe" attached to pick up the electric power.
If a carriage has shoes then it is a motor car,
if there are no shoes then it is a trailer car.
The best lines to see this on are the sub surface
lines like the Met or District lines because there
are two tracks side by side.

.... also on any line where above ground.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

In message , John Rowland
writes
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

Now I might get shot down in flames from one of
our resident drivers or engineers here but one
way to tell which is which is to look at a train on
the opposite track and see which wheels have
the "shoe" attached to pick up the electric power.
If a carriage has shoes then it is a motor car,
if there are no shoes then it is a trailer car.
The best lines to see this on are the sub surface
lines like the Met or District lines because there
are two tracks side by side.

... also on any line where above ground.

As far as I know all the Southern region stock has bus lines throughout
so any car with or without shoes could be motored whereas no underground
trains do.
--
Clive Coleman

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:53 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Within a "train" of underground carriages you will typically get two
units attached to each other. On some lines each unit has 4 cars - e.g.
the Victoria and Metropolitan Lines have 8 car trains while on others
you get a mix of 4 cars and 3 cars to give a 7 car train (Piccadilly
Line or Circle / Hammersmith and City)

Piccadilly and Circle trains are all 6 cars. Piccadilly trains are made up
of two 3 car units while Circle trains are three 2 car units. The Bakerloo
has the only 7 car trains at present though the Jubilee is planning to
extend its trains from 6 to 7 cars in the next year or so.

hangs head in shame

Oh dear - I got all that a bit wrong didn't I. I knew I should have
checked in a book :-( I'm normally quite good at knowing the stock
configurations.

disappears in disgrace
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

On 28 Oct 2004 00:55:54 GMT, (Soniakostas) wrote:

Hi and thanks for all the replies !

I found it a bit stranghe though and very costly for the underground to
actually built 3 trains for the public to choose.

Usually companies (like Bus companies) choose the model themselevs then they
buy few dozens of them they wopuldnt actually built 3 different busses and then
get rid of them

But buses are much more of a standardised product and there is a
reasonably competitive market place so bus companies have a lot of
choice. Bus manufacturers do sometimes produce prototypes and they often
offer them to bus companies to run them in trial service to see how they
work and how the passengers like them. Overall though buses are much
easier to design and build than tube trains.

I dont know just sounds abit strange and indeed for the rest of the new trains
of the underground (waterloo/northern) they didnt have any prototype trains

One of the reason for the three prototype trains was to test a range of
features that LU thought would bring benefits in the next generation of
trains. As some of these features cannot be put all in one train there
had to be more than one. It had also been a very long time since LUL had
bought any new trains - other than the 83 stock for the Jubilee Line -
and therefore decisions needed to be made for the next generation of
trains. The next order was with BREL for the Central Line trains - this
was a change of supplier and was quite a brave step for all concerned as
BREL had no experience of building tube trains whereas Met Cam (now
Alstom) had years of experience.

We can now see that the Central Line trains have not been the happiest
of designs with several major problems with them that are still being
sorted out now.

When LU was considering how to buy trains for the Northern and Jubilee
Lines there had been very big changes to how British Rail was buying and
specifying trains. The whole market place was moving towards a design
made by the manufacturer with far less involvement from the customer
like BR or LUL (who both used to practically dictate the train design to
excruciating levels of detail). You also had the advent of Private
Finance where you effectively pay for the trains over a long period of
time (like a mortgage) instead of buying them. At the time the Northern
Line was very unreliable and Michael Portillo (then Treasury Secretary)
was being hounded by the Evening Standard because Adtranz (the successor
to BREL) had said they could provide a new Northern Line fleet very
quickly using private finance. Eventually Alstom (the traditional
supplier of tube trains) joined in with a counter offer. Eventually the
government relented and allowed LU to proceed with the process to get a
privately financed Northern Line fleet. Alstom got the contract and we
have the trains running today. As Alstom own the trains they had to do
the prototype work and be allowed to specify the design and performance
because if the trains don't work they don't get paid (in simple terms).

For the Jubilee Line the trains are similar to the Northern Line ones
but Alstom won a separate contract for this via the Jubilee Line
extension project. It was decided to buy a whole new fleet for the line
although a range of options were considered of using some of the old
trains, making them longer and buying just enough new trains to run the
extra service on the extension. The Jubilee Line trains are owned by LUL
so in that respect they are different to the Northern Line ones. Alstom
still have a contract to maintain and look after these trains so again
they had the risk of making them work reliably. They are currently
building some new trains and over 50 extra carriages to make the
existing trains longer - to seven cars. The first trains have been
constructed in Spain.

I expect my memory may have failed me on some of the detail above so
feel free to correct it.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

Clive Coleman wrote:
In message , John Rowland
writes
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Now I might get shot down in flames from one of
our resident drivers or engineers here but one
way to tell which is which is to look at a train on
the opposite track and see which wheels have
the "shoe" attached to pick up the electric power.
If a carriage has shoes then it is a motor car,
if there are no shoes then it is a trailer car.
The best lines to see this on are the sub surface
lines like the Met or District lines because there
are two tracks side by side.

... also on any line where above ground.

As far as I know all the Southern region stock has bus lines
throughout so any car with or without shoes could be motored whereas
no underground trains do.

Not quite correct. There is a motor to trailer bus line to feed the
compressors.

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

In article , Clive Coleman
writes
As far as I know all the Southern region stock has bus lines throughout
so any car with or without shoes could be motored whereas no
underground trains do.

Memory says that traction bus lines aren't permitted on underground
lines (as opposed to lines with the occasional tunnels).

The 313 dual voltage stock that runs to Moorgate over the old GNCR is
made up of three cars:
Driving motor (pickup shoes)
Pantograph trailer
Driving motor (pickup shoes)
In A.C. mode there's a through bus along the length of the train, fed in
the centre from the transformer. In D.C. mode (designed for the tubes)
the bus is disconnected and each motor car runs off its own pickup
shoes.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

UNDERGROUND TRAIN QUESTION / 1986 PROROTYPE STOCK
 

In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes

Memory says that traction bus lines aren't permitted on underground
lines (as opposed to lines with the occasional tunnels).
That's my understanding also.
--
Clive.