Trivia: Railway madness
 

Our beautiful low-level station, a "facsimile on a small scale of
Waterloo Station" has just 3 years later been converted into an ugly
high-level station! At least now we have trains direct to Fenchurch
Street in one direction and Ludgate Hill in the other.

Where in Surrey did this happen?

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"Troy Steadman" wrote in message
om...
Our beautiful low-level station, a "facsimile on a small scale of
Waterloo Station" has just 3 years later been converted into an ugly
high-level station! At least now we have trains direct to Fenchurch
Street in one direction and Ludgate Hill in the other.

Where in Surrey did this happen?

This sounds like Kingston-upon-Thames, though the dates don't appear to fit.
The branch from Twickenham to the Low Level station opened in 1863, and the
extension to New Malden, involving the building of a new high level station
opened in 1869. There were through trains from the North London Line, but
these were diverted from Fenchurch Street to Broad Street in 1865.
A Kingston to Ludgate Hill service (via Twickenham, Clapham Junction and
Factory Junction) appears to have run from 1866 to the end of 1868, when it
was replaced by a Richmond to Ludgate Hill service (via Gunnersbury,
Hammersmith Grove Road, Kensington Addison Road and Factory Junction) and a
Wimbledon to Ludgate Hill service (via Tooting, Tulse Hill and Herne Hill).

Peter

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message


This sounds like Kingston-upon-Thames, though the dates don't appear to fit.
The branch from Twickenham to the Low Level station opened in 1863, and the
extension to New Malden, involving the building of a new high level station
opened in 1869. There were through trains from the North London Line, but
these were diverted from Fenchurch Street to Broad Street in 1865.
A Kingston to Ludgate Hill service (via Twickenham, Clapham Junction and
Factory Junction) appears to have run from 1866 to the end of 1868, when it
was replaced by a Richmond to Ludgate Hill service (via Gunnersbury,
Hammersmith Grove Road, Kensington Addison Road and Factory Junction) and a
Wimbledon to Ludgate Hill service (via Tooting, Tulse Hill and Herne Hill).

Peter

I stand corrected on the dates. According to June Sampson's "All Change"
(1985) the first Eastbound route ran "...through Norbiton and passed
under the Southampton main line at Malden, running parallel with its
south side to Wimbledon. From there it ran direct to Ludgate Hill,
passengers for Waterloo being obliged to change at Wimbledon".

Is that right? If so what did the Wimbledon to Ludgate Hill route go
via?

She also mentions the remains of a line from Kingston to Putney Bridge
(through the fields at Coombe near New Malden) which was started in
around 1886-88 but never completed, which "are still visible today, on
territory north of Kingston By-Pass"






--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"Troy Steadman" wrote in message
news:f14a68061c839971c15e2082179379ff.125090@mygat e.mailgate.org...

I stand corrected on the dates. According to June Sampson's "All Change"
(1985) the first Eastbound route ran "...through Norbiton and passed
under the Southampton main line at Malden, running parallel with its
south side to Wimbledon. From there it ran direct to Ludgate Hill,
passengers for Waterloo being obliged to change at Wimbledon".

My sources are 'A Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain, Vol 3
Greater London' H P White 2nd ed 1971; 'London Railways' E Course 1962; and
'London's Termini' A A Jackson 1969, which are all usually reliable texts.
It seems unlikely that, on opening the Kingston to New Malden line, the main
service was to Ludgate Hill, as the purpose of building this line was to
speed up the Kingston to London service. I haven't got dates for the
quadrupling of the SWML west from Clapham Junction, or whether the flying
junction for the Kingston branch at New Malden is original or a later
addition.

Is that right? If so what did the Wimbledon to Ludgate Hill route go
via?

This seems to have been promoted by a separate company, the 'Tooting, Merton
& Wimbledon', but sold out to the LSWR and LB&SCR jointly before opening. It
originally had two routes between Wimbledon and Tooting, the current one
used by Thameslink via Haydons Road, and one that took the Tramlink route to
Merton Park then looped via Merton Abbey to Tooting. From Tooting the route
to Ludgate Hill was the Thameslink route via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne
Hill and Elephant & Castle to Ludgate Hill.

She also mentions the remains of a line from Kingston to Putney Bridge
(through the fields at Coombe near New Malden) which was started in
around 1886-88 but never completed, which "are still visible today, on
territory north of Kingston By-Pass"

I've never heard of this one.

Peter

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message


Is that right? If so what did the Wimbledon to Ludgate Hill route go
via?

This seems to have been promoted by a separate company, the 'Tooting, Merton
& Wimbledon', but sold out to the LSWR and LB&SCR jointly before opening. It
originally had two routes between Wimbledon and Tooting, the current one
used by Thameslink via Haydons Road, and one that took the Tramlink route to
Merton Park then looped via Merton Abbey to Tooting. From Tooting the route
to Ludgate Hill was the Thameslink route via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne
Hill and Elephant & Castle to Ludgate Hill.

Very interesting Peter, I have often looked at that Merton Abbey section
past the old Triang factory or on old maps and wondered what its purpose
was, now I know.

Immediately to the north of the current line from New Malden to Raynes
Park is a "ghost" line, bridged and laid out as if for rails and now
connecting IMMSMC the former Water Works at Berrylands to London. Do you
know anything about that one?





--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

This seems to have been promoted by a separate company,
the 'Tooting, Merton & Wimbledon', but sold out to the
LSWR and LB&SCR jointly before opening. It originally had
two routes between Wimbledon and Tooting, the current one
used by Thameslink via Haydons Road, and one that took the
Tramlink route to Merton Park then looped via Merton Abbey
to Tooting. From Tooting the route to Ludgate Hill was the
Thameslink route via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne
Hill and Elephant & Castle to Ludgate Hill.

But why was the now abandoned route ever built at all?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Trivia: Railway madness
 

Troy Steadman wrote:
"Peter Masson" wrote in message


Is that right? If so what did the Wimbledon to Ludgate Hill route
go
via?

This seems to have been promoted by a separate company, the
'Tooting, Merton
& Wimbledon', but sold out to the LSWR and LB&SCR jointly before
opening. It
originally had two routes between Wimbledon and Tooting, the
current one
used by Thameslink via Haydons Road, and one that took the Tramlink
route to
Merton Park then looped via Merton Abbey to Tooting. From Tooting
the route
to Ludgate Hill was the Thameslink route via Streatham, Tulse Hill,
Herne
Hill and Elephant & Castle to Ludgate Hill.

Very interesting Peter, I have often looked at that Merton Abbey
section
past the old Triang factory or on old maps and wondered what its
purpose
was, now I know.

Immediately to the north of the current line from New Malden to
Raynes
Park is a "ghost" line, bridged and laid out as if for rails and now
connecting IMMSMC the former Water Works at Berrylands to London. Do
you
know anything about that one?

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG


Is the piece of land that starts immediately after New Malden station
and ends just after the bridge that carries the A3 over the line? I've
often wondered about that. There are some concrete blocks on the spare
land to the side of the tracks that I've always taken to be WW2
anti-tank blocks, though I'm sure blowing the bridge would have been
much more effective in the event of an invasion.

Neill

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"Troy Steadman" wrote in message
news:8e43c5b2b5a7d7eaa4d08e9ccb49fec3.125090@mygat e.mailgate.org...

Immediately to the north of the current line from New Malden to Raynes
Park is a "ghost" line, bridged and laid out as if for rails and now
connecting IMMSMC the former Water Works at Berrylands to London. Do you
know anything about that one?

It wasn't a passenger railway. Sounds as though it was a private siding, but
I've no idea what it served.
Peter

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

This seems to have been promoted by a separate company,
the 'Tooting, Merton & Wimbledon', but sold out to the
LSWR and LB&SCR jointly before opening. It originally had
two routes between Wimbledon and Tooting, the current one
used by Thameslink via Haydons Road, and one that took the
Tramlink route to Merton Park then looped via Merton Abbey
to Tooting. From Tooting the route to Ludgate Hill was the
Thameslink route via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne
Hill and Elephant & Castle to Ludgate Hill.

But why was the now abandoned route ever built at all?

Serving an area which was rather remote from Haydons Road and Wimbledon
stations - the area is now served by LUL (Colliers Wood and South Wimbledon)
and Tramlink.
Peter

Trivia: Railway madness
 

In message
ilgate.org, Troy
Steadman writes

Immediately to the north of the current line from New Malden to Raynes
Park is a "ghost" line, bridged and laid out as if for rails and now
connecting IMMSMC the former Water Works at Berrylands to London. Do you
know anything about that one?

On 19th-century maps it is an embankment marked "Lambeth Water Company"
- see http://www.old-maps.co.uk/ and look up New Malden.

I suspect it is simply a water main from the riverside reservoirs at
Surbiton (Long Ditton) up towards the company's reservoirs at Streatham
and Brixton - and that it just happens to be above ground at this point.
I can't see any sign that there was ever a railway on top of this
embankment - rather the railway and water main were built side-by-side.

--
Paul Terry

Trivia: Railway madness
 

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:55:34 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

This seems to have been promoted by a separate company,
the 'Tooting, Merton & Wimbledon', but sold out to the
LSWR and LB&SCR jointly before opening. It originally had
two routes between Wimbledon and Tooting, the current one
used by Thameslink via Haydons Road, and one that took the
Tramlink route to Merton Park then looped via Merton Abbey
to Tooting. From Tooting the route to Ludgate Hill was the
Thameslink route via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne
Hill and Elephant & Castle to Ludgate Hill.

But why was the now abandoned route ever built at all?

To make a terminal loop for operational efficiency?

--
Peter Lawrence

Trivia: Railway madness
 

JRS: In article , dated Mon, 13 Dec 2004
14:54:09, seen in news:uk.transport.london, Paul Terry
posted :
In message
ailgate.org, Troy
Steadman writes

Immediately to the north of the current line from New Malden to Raynes
Park is a "ghost" line, bridged and laid out as if for rails and now
connecting IMMSMC the former Water Works at Berrylands to London. Do you
know anything about that one?

On 19th-century maps it is an embankment marked "Lambeth Water Company"
- see http://www.old-maps.co.uk/ and look up New Malden.

I suspect it is simply a water main from the riverside reservoirs at
Surbiton (Long Ditton) up towards the company's reservoirs at Streatham
and Brixton - and that it just happens to be above ground at this point.
I can't see any sign that there was ever a railway on top of this
embankment - rather the railway and water main were built side-by-side.

There is indeed a water route along there; pipes can be seen at Elm Road
level crossing. Water can generally be seen escaping into Coombe Road
just north of the railway bridge, and from time to time appears in bulk
there, instead of in the local plumbing.

IIRC, there is a fair-sized aperture under the A3, just to the north of
that used by the main line - adequate for at least one track.

But I don't recall there being room for more tracks on the trackbed
under the Alric Road - Dukes Avenue footbridge, though there is land
between the trackbed and the properties to the north.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. DOS 3.3, 6.20; Win98. ©
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links.
PAS EXE TXT ZIP via URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/00index.htm
My DOS URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/batfiles.htm - also batprogs.htm.

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:55:34 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

This seems to have been promoted by a separate company,
the 'Tooting, Merton & Wimbledon', but sold out to the
LSWR and LB&SCR jointly before opening. It originally had
two routes between Wimbledon and Tooting, the current one
used by Thameslink via Haydons Road, and one that took the
Tramlink route to Merton Park then looped via Merton Abbey
to Tooting. From Tooting the route to Ludgate Hill was the
Thameslink route via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne
Hill and Elephant & Castle to Ludgate Hill.

But why was the now abandoned route ever built at all?

To make a terminal loop for operational efficiency?

I doubt that - it wasn't done anywhere else. In particular, a terminal loop
with multiple stations means that passengers are unhappy if the train waits
a long time on the loop, meaning that trains would have to spend most or all
of their recovery time at the Central London terminus instead, and their
isn't room for that unless you have huge Central London termini where land
is very expensive.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Trivia: Railway madness
 

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:39:51 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:55:34 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

This seems to have been promoted by a separate company,
the 'Tooting, Merton & Wimbledon', but sold out to the
LSWR and LB&SCR jointly before opening. It originally had
two routes between Wimbledon and Tooting, the current one
used by Thameslink via Haydons Road, and one that took the
Tramlink route to Merton Park then looped via Merton Abbey
to Tooting. From Tooting the route to Ludgate Hill was the
Thameslink route via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne
Hill and Elephant & Castle to Ludgate Hill.

But why was the now abandoned route ever built at all?

To make a terminal loop for operational efficiency?

I doubt that - it wasn't done anywhere else. In particular, a terminal loop
with multiple stations means that passengers are unhappy if the train waits
a long time on the loop, meaning that trains would have to spend most or all
of their recovery time at the Central London terminus instead, and their
isn't room for that unless you have huge Central London termini where land
is very expensive.

The LBSC I believe ran London Bridge to London Bridge services via
Crystal Palace and via Selhurst. And the LSWR had (and their
sucessors still have) the Hounslow and Kingston loops. So both
companies had som experience of loop services.

Alternatively their aims may have been different, LSWR wanting a
connection to the City and the LBSC wishing to serve more suburbs like
Merton.
--
Peter Lawrence

Trivia: Railway madness
 

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:39:51 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
...

To make a terminal loop for operational efficiency?

I doubt that - it wasn't done anywhere else.

[...] London Bridge to London Bridge services via
Crystal Palace and via Selhurst
[...] the Hounslow and Kingston loops.

blush Forgot about them.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes