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Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Mrs Redboots wrote:
John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005: Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro, but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often wondered why this is. I know that was the case in the 1970s when I lived there, but I *thought* - and I could easily be mistaken - that now it was one ticket per zone, same as the metro? I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run, but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't change bus without another ticket. Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years, because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change. On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro. -- John Ray |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Dave Arquati wrote:
[...] I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based, but take into account a need to be flexible with travel plans, the fact that central London is much busier than outer London, and keep people happy when they can easily understand what fare they will pay. How would Travelcards - the most useful and flexible ticket - work under a point-to-point system? West Yorkshire and the West Midlands have the best of both worlds. There's a zone map for the purposes of offering zonal travelcards, but there's also a point-to-point system for season tickets and walk-on fares. -- PGP key ID E85DC776 - finger for full key |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Rupert Candy wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005:
Mrs Redboots wrote: And you can't see out of a single-decker. But sat in the front seat upstairs on a double-decker (and since those are just by the stairs, no problem with headroom), and in no hurry, it's a joy! Annabel - it must have been a while since you've been on the 3 for you to describe a long journey on it as "a joy"... (On the other hand, IMHO the 137 is a very pleasant way to travel from this corner of London to Oxford St!) Yes, I don't like the 3 very much, you are quite right. On the other hand, it does go through some nice parts of London before crossing the river! -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 14 Feb 2005:
Mrs Redboots wrote: I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run, but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't change bus without another ticket. Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years, because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change. On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro. If you read French, there's a very interesting history of the Paris bus network on http://tinyurl.com/3rhfv which says, among other things, that the 1970s were really the nadir of the network, and that they have done a great deal to improve things since then. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Dave Liney wrote:
"Barry Salter" wrote in message ... Compare this to TfL's fares, where the vast majority of the fares structure is printed in a 16 page booklet (about the only thing that's not in there being staff privilege tickets and Railcard discounted Travelcards). They don't list the reduced prices for some short boundary-crossing journeys either. I've also never seen them published online by TfL either. You have to go to the station involved to find them out, or look in the ATOC's National Fares Manual. That these reduced fares exist does show that London Underground realise that a strict zonal pricing system can lead to "unfair" fares. I only thought these applied to season tickets until I tried it out. The short hops allowed are quite reasonable - for example, Gloucester Road to Holland Park warrants a £1.70 fare, as does High Street Kensington to Fulham Broadway. I presume they apply if you travel from a station adjacent to a boundary to a station one removed from a boundary, but that's just based on those examples. I imagine it only works for hops across the Z1 boundary too, as other short hop fares will be £1.10 anyway. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Neil Williams wrote:
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:39:59 -0000, "Solar Penguin" wrote: And why is being individually priced a bad thing? Look at the example I gave elsewhere in the thread: the Northern Line ticket from Morden to Waterloo costs the same as the ticket from Morden going all the way to Mill Hill East. Passangers to Waterloo are paying for around twice as much journey than they actually use. An individually priced Morden-Waterloo ticket would solve this problem. As would a fairly simple change to the zonal fares system, which would be to count the number of zone boundaries crossed, rather than to count which zones are entered. I'm sure I've seen this kind of ticketing elsewhere. There are plenty of point-to-point systems which "max out" like this one, as well - I believe Deutsche Bahn's semi-kilometric InterCity fares system has a maximum fare. Counting zone boundaries crossed is useless if you want to discourage people from entering or using a particularly busy part of the network if they don't need to. Under that system, a journey from Shadwell to New Cross would be priced the same as one from King's Cross to Victoria. All of which is a moot point, anyway. Given that a public transport system has been planned and is being operated based on average traffic etc, there is no direct cost that can be attributed to one person's usage of the system, because whether that one person was there or not the system would operate anyway, and the fuel cost attributed to one passenger is tiny enough to be irrelevant. Whatever means is used to define the fares is therefore a model. That's true, but it doesn't stop the fares system from being used to restrain demand. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Rupert Candy wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote: [snip useful and clear analysis] All that's left are day return journeys to London terminals, which would unfortunately be more expensive under this system. Single would be £2.50 from a Zone 4 station, return would be £4.70 (capped to the price of a Travelcard). If we take Crystal Palace as an example, a single to Victoria would be £3.10 now, or a return would be £3.60. On the plus side, you get free bus and tube travel "thrown in". I guess it all depends what proportion of day-returners arriving at London terminals don't use any other transport during the day. However, as a YP railcard holder I can get a CDR from West Dulwich to Victoria for around £2. Since railcards don't have any effect on zonal fares, a comparable journey via bus 3 and Brixton will end up costing over twice this. I wonder if they've thought about what will happen to railcards if they go zonal? I have wondered about the railcard issue, being a user myself (but usually only for journeys between London and the "outside" :-) ). With the last fares change, through tickets from NR to Tube stations were fully discounted (before, only the NR portion was discounted), and it would be odd to abandon a discount again. A possible solution in our case might be for TfL to combine their Student discount scheme with the YP Railcard scheme, with Student-registered Oysters incurring the YP discounts whereever necessary. Complicated though! Given that return fares between the termini and South London stations would rise considerably, TfL may have to offer some compromise to satisfy the travelling public. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... I have wondered about the railcard issue, being a user myself (but usually only for journeys between London and the "outside" :-) ). With the last fares change, through tickets from NR to Tube stations were fully discounted (before, only the NR portion was discounted), and it would be odd to abandon a discount again. A Zones 1-6 ODTC, normally GBP6.00, is discounted to GBP4.80 using a Gold Card. Presumably this applies to a ticket bought for a travelling companion, or for a ticket bought by the holder of a Gold Card which is not a Travelcard, e.g. one valid for a journey outside London, such as Newhaven Harbour to Town. Does this apply to other railcards - obviously a Network Card would come up against the GBP10 minimum, except at weekends? Apparently there is no discount on a ODTC with validity less than all zones. Peter |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:39:53 +0000, John Ray
wrote: Mrs Redboots wrote: John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005: Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro, but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often wondered why this is. I know that was the case in the 1970s when I lived there, but I *thought* - and I could easily be mistaken - that now it was one ticket per zone, same as the metro? I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run, but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't change bus without another ticket. Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years, because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change. On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro. Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID card number. It is then valid for travel within the zones purchases. Admittedly it is a sort of premium product but it is very handy if you need to use SNCF or RER services beyond the central area. It also opens up the bus network for you to use. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Paul Corfield wrote:
Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID card number. I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis. -- John Ray |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
In message
Michael Parry wrote: In message , Paul Corfield writes I acknowledged this point but if you have any memory of the Tube prior to zonal fares and I just about do then the old set up had arrays of free standing single fare machine with huge signs above them saying which stations for that fare. Are there really no pictures of the old machines anywhere on the web? A Google and a look at http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk didn't turn up any. IIRC, they had the fare in huge print and the stations served by that fare on the sloping glass top. That's how I remember them, the fare was in red and the machine itself was painted blue. Fare bands were in increments of 3d (old pence). IIRC only singles were available, no returns. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes In article , Paul Terry writes Much more common is to offer two bags of veg or salad (or two almost expired pizzas) for a reduced price. People fall for the offer but cannot consume that much fresh food before it goes off - so they throw away the out-of-date goods. Rubbish. It might be a problem for single people Rubbish. It is not a problem for anyone. - but you don't *have* to take the 2-for-1.5 offer - but for families you end up saving significantly. If you have a family that can consume that much food the same day, it is obviously a saving. Re-reading the thread would help your comprehension. And plenty of the discounted stuff is nowhere near expiry, or can be frozen, You freeze lettuce, satsumas and cheese (three of today's offers) ? Now explain 2-for-1 offers, which our Tesco does a lot of. My neighbour, who is the international buyer for their major rival, tells me that it is to clear over-purchasing at bargain rates - the warehouse space then becomes more expensive than selling the goods off at half price. Today I watched as several argon-impregnated pallet-loads of salad were moved from warehouse to shelf - all marked to expire tomorrow. :( I can even point at items where N+1 cost *less* than N. How does this fit your conspiracy theory? Why on earth do you imagine I have a "conspiracy theory"? I am remarking on sell-by dates that anyone with eyes can read. Once you have understood that, try to extrapolate its relevance to railway tickets. -- Paul Terry |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Paul Terry wrote:
You freeze [...] cheese ? If it's cheddar-ish, rather than Brie-ish, then yes. |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:00 +0000, John Ray wrote in
, seen in uk.railway: Paul Corfield wrote: Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID card number. I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis. I've used both. Mobilis is useful for one-day visits, but I doubt that most visitors to Paris are only there for one day, so for most visitors purposes Paris Visite is probably more useful. The card they *don't* tell the tourists about is the Carte Orange in its weekly form. Granted the Carte Orange is only valid from Monday to Sunday (and you need a photo for the ID card), but the zone 1-5 Carte Orange costs EUR 30,20 against EUR 45,70 for a 5-day zone 1-5 Paris Visite. A 3-day 1-5 Visite costs EUR 37,35, so as the weekly Carte Orange is sold until Wednesday, a 3-day midweek visitor would be better off buying the Carte Orange! -- Ross, a.k.a. Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:00 +0000, John Ray
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID card number. I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis. I've never used the Paris Visite because like all such "special" tickets it is a rip off unless you can guarantee to use all of the add on extra discounts. As suggested by another poster I had not considered the Carte Orange as an option as I perhaps foolishly assumed you had to be a resident as employers pay part of the costs of such tickets IIRC? I may need to do some more investigation. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:00 +0000, John Ray wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID card number. I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis. I've never used the Paris Visite because like all such "special" tickets it is a rip off unless you can guarantee to use all of the add on extra discounts. As suggested by another poster I had not considered the Carte Orange as an option as I perhaps foolishly assumed you had to be a resident as employers pay part of the costs of such tickets IIRC? I may need to do some more investigation. This is true, more employers pay for travel costs in France than they do here (not that mine did, but then that's universities for you!), but that's nothing relevant to the Carte Orange - it's just a period travelcard, that's all. (I still find it quite bizarre that their period cards run on the calendar week/month, though you get used to it - the only effect it had on me was to not bother buying it in December and August.) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:52:21 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote in
, seen in uk.railway: [...] As suggested by another poster I had not considered the Carte Orange as an option as I perhaps foolishly assumed you had to be a resident as employers pay part of the costs of such tickets IIRC? I may need to do some more investigation. My French is not wonderful and I got the details from the French version of the RATP website (the English version unsurprisingly doesn't mention Carte Orange), but there's no suggestion of local residence for a Carte Orange. The Carte Integrale (sp?) required French residence, but that's a monthly or longer season and is paid for by bank transfer. I suspect employers can pay for or towards RATP seasons, just as happens in the UK with rail or PTE seasons, but I couldn't see any "special" tickets on the website which were only for those groups. -- Ross, a.k.a. Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Ross wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:00 +0000, John Ray wrote in , seen in uk.railway: Paul Corfield wrote: Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID card number. I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis. I've used both. Mobilis is useful for one-day visits, but I doubt that most visitors to Paris are only there for one day, so for most visitors purposes Paris Visite is probably more useful. For most visitors, the Carnet is more useful: 10 Metro/Bus tickets for EUR 10.50, that's about 73p each. Unless you plan to make 6 or more journeys in a day, it's not worth buying a Mobilis at EUR 5.30 (Zones 1,2). Paris Visite is more expensive, and is only worthwhile if the discounts on other attractions that it offers match what you want to see during your visit. The card they *don't* tell the tourists about is the Carte Orange in its weekly form. Granted the Carte Orange is only valid from Monday to Sunday (and you need a photo for the ID card), but the zone 1-5 Carte Orange costs EUR 30,20 against EUR 45,70 for a 5-day zone 1-5 Paris Visite. A 3-day 1-5 Visite costs EUR 37,35, so as the weekly Carte Orange is sold until Wednesday, a 3-day midweek visitor would be better off buying the Carte Orange! .... if arriving by air to CDG. But most Eurostar tourists will need only Zones 1-2, which is EUR 15.40 for a weekly Carte Orange or EUR 15.90 for 3 Mobilis 1-day tickets. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Aidan Stanger wrote:
Solar Penguin wrote: --- Dave Arquati said... Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to Oxford Circus. Why can't you simply buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace to Oxford Circus? Instead you *have* to buy a One Day Travelcard for zones 1-4, which means you're also paying for the flexibility of travelling to Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other places that you won't actually visit today! You *can* buy a return between those stations, but it's more expensive than a Travelcard, so you get a Travelcard instead. Are you sure it's more expensive? I don't know about from Crystal Palace, but from some NR stations a return ticket to Underground Zone 1 is cheaper than a travelcard. From Crystal Palace it's £3.10 CDR + £4 TfL Z1 return. The NR return has to be less than £1.20 from Z3/4 or £2.00 from Z5/6 for a return to be cheaper than a Travelcard (£4.70, £5.20 or £6.00 for Z1-2, Z1-4 or Z1-6 respectively). What about families? Rail can't possibly compete with car without some sort of discount for groups travelling together. Yes it can. The question is how much group discount should be provided to attract families - or should it stick to what it's best at. And the answer really depends on the time of day - when the trains are full, attracting families is probably best avoided, but when there is spare capacity, it's often worth putting on special offers in order to attract more passengers. Yes; I wouldn't propose family tickets for the peaks but off-peak family travel should be encouraged as it gets people thinking about alternatives to the car, and gets the children used to public transport. Whether one agrees with it or not, I think one of the reasons behind Ken's plan to give under-18s free bus use is to make sure they're totally used to freedom of bus use rather than depending on parents for car rides and therefore yearning to drive themselves. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Phil Richards wrote:
Solar Penguin wrote: Trouble is, the stupid zones have been around so long that too many people have got into the habit of thinking that they're a good thing, even when they're clearly not -- and won't hear a word said against them. Maybe it would have been better if TfL abandoned their zones and came into line with the rest of the country with a point-to-point system. Might work fine for the tube as almost every station is gated, perhaps you would like to put forward ideas on how a point-to-point bus fares structure in London can be efficiently run with proper revenue protection. (shudder) A point-to-point bus fare system would really put me off bus use. One of the things I really liked about buses in London when I arrived here, versus back home, was an easy flat fare structure. (That and about twenty times the frequency...) -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:18:50 GMT, Richard J. wrote in
, seen in uk.railway: Ross wrote: [snippage] I've used both. Mobilis is useful for one-day visits, but I doubt that most visitors to Paris are only there for one day, so for most visitors purposes Paris Visite is probably more useful. For most visitors, the Carnet is more useful: 10 Metro/Bus tickets for EUR 10.50, that's about 73p each. Indeed. I was doing a fair amount of back-and-forwarding when I went, and I actually bought a Visite (from E* at Waterloo) simply because it was easier at the time. [...] The card they *don't* tell the tourists about is the Carte Orange in its weekly form. Granted the Carte Orange is only valid from Monday to Sunday (and you need a photo for the ID card), but the zone 1-5 Carte Orange costs EUR 30,20 against EUR 45,70 for a 5-day zone 1-5 Paris Visite. A 3-day 1-5 Visite costs EUR 37,35, so as the weekly Carte Orange is sold until Wednesday, a 3-day midweek visitor would be better off buying the Carte Orange! ... if arriving by air to CDG. Or if staying outside Central Paris, although I accept that most tourists will be staying centrally. But most Eurostar tourists will need only Zones 1-2, which is EUR 15.40 for a weekly Carte Orange or EUR 15.90 for 3 Mobilis 1-day tickets. Plus, presumably, an excess of some sort for the obligatory visit to Versailles. ;-) -- Ross, a.k.a. Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:25:37 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote in
, seen in uk.railway: [...] A point-to-point bus fare system would really put me off bus use. One of the things I really liked about buses in London when I arrived here, versus back home, was an easy flat fare structure. (That and about twenty times the frequency...) As an irregular visitor, I like two things: the frequency and the one day bus pass. Three-squids-fifty ain't bad when you consider that here in Lincoln the return fare on my local service from the city centre out to ASDA, a journey of 20 minutes each way or so, is two-squids-twenty. The theoretical frequency of most services (practice is something else) means I can do things without watching the clock, and compared to the sort of timetables I've gotten used to out here in the sticks, 'tis wonderful. -- Ross, a.k.a. Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Ross wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:25:37 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote in , seen in uk.railway: [...] A point-to-point bus fare system would really put me off bus use. One of the things I really liked about buses in London when I arrived here, versus back home, was an easy flat fare structure. (That and about twenty times the frequency...) As an irregular visitor, I like two things: the frequency and the one day bus pass. Three-squids-fifty ain't bad when you consider that here in Lincoln the return fare on my local service from the city centre out to ASDA, a journey of 20 minutes each way or so, is two-squids-twenty. Three squids fifty? You're being overcharged mate :-) Even more of a bargain at three squids. The theoretical frequency of most services (practice is something else) means I can do things without watching the clock, and compared to the sort of timetables I've gotten used to out here in the sticks, 'tis wonderful. In this bit of London, the practice seems to be pretty decent too. The 49 used to be a problem but since it went double-decker, reliability seems to have dramatically improved. The other buses I use semi-regularly are also pretty reliable. The number 9 seems exemplary during the day; the wait at night at Trafalgar Square can be frustrating when you're freezing your bits off! -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:33:22 +0000, Dave Arquati
wrote: Counting zone boundaries crossed is useless if you want to discourage people from entering or using a particularly busy part of the network if they don't need to. Under that system, a journey from Shadwell to New Cross would be priced the same as one from King's Cross to Victoria. OK, so you charge X per zone boundary crossed, plus Y if you cross zone 1. That said, I don't think that in general charging more to go through zone 1 will dissuade all that many people from doing so, just as hiking the fuel tax doesn't stop people travelling by car. I would think that the majority of journeys on a system like TfL are more time- than price-sensitive, TBH, certainly the peak ones. The point was that you can define a zonal (or similar) fares structure with rules to fit whatever pattern of usage you like. "Fairness" doesn't really come into it, because as with a national telephone call these days there is no directly-attributable cost to a given journey, because the buses, tubes and trains are going to run whether that one specific journey was being made or not. I would say that it is better for an urban network to define your fares structure in simple terms like that than it is to have someone sit down and arbitrarily price fares from A to B and C to D separately. That's true, but it doesn't stop the fares system from being used to restrain demand. Indeed it doesn't. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:32:58 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
wrote: A Zones 1-6 ODTC, normally GBP6.00, is discounted to GBP4.80 using a Gold Card. Indeed it is - or a YP Railcard. I've always found this strange, as none of the PTEs offer railcard discount on their all-modes travelcard tickets, and I wouldn't have thought that TfL got any money from the issue of a YP card. I do wonder if it's just an easier way of enforcing "student/young person's discount" because the card already exists, so it's one less scheme for them to administer? Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
Now explain 2-for-1 offers, which our Tesco does a lot of. I can even point at items where N+1 cost *less* than N. How does this fit your conspiracy theory? It gets price(N) off someone who came into the shop intending to spend 0, but who was seduced by the bargainous cheapness on offer. As long as price(N) 2 * cost(N), tesco wins. And more importantly, it means they get your credit card number, which contains SECRET SOLOMONIC KNOWLEDGE encoded by EXTRATERRESTRIALS working for the GNOMES OF ZURICH, which they then use to get your address from the SECRET GOVERNMENT MAINFRAME BURIED UNDER STONEHENGE and pass it on to the MASONS so that they can keep you informed of EXCITING NEW PRODUCTS AND SERVICES. And as for the N+1-cheaper-than-N case: believe me, you *really* don't want to know. tom -- Restate my assumptions |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Neil Williams wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:33:22 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote: Counting zone boundaries crossed is useless if you want to discourage people from entering or using a particularly busy part of the network if they don't need to. Under that system, a journey from Shadwell to New Cross would be priced the same as one from King's Cross to Victoria. OK, so you charge X per zone boundary crossed, plus Y if you cross zone 1. That said, I don't think that in general charging more to go through zone 1 will dissuade all that many people from doing so, just as hiking the fuel tax doesn't stop people travelling by car. I would think that the majority of journeys on a system like TfL are more time- than price-sensitive, TBH, certainly the peak ones. Perhaps that's the case for a large (richer) proportion of the travelling population. However, the explosion in bus use has shown that people are attracted to a cheaper option if it can deliver the goods. I'd say four out of five times, I use the bus to reach the West End because it's a lot cheaper (my return bus journey costs less than a single Tube journey). The different with the Tube is that there is often not an option to avoid Zone 1 - this will change when Silverlink services are brought into the TfL fares structure, which I believe will happen fairly soon. If the East London line northern extension is in Zone 2, it will offer an attractively-priced alternative for journeys to the Liverpool St area for travellers who are more price- than time-sensitive. The point was that you can define a zonal (or similar) fares structure with rules to fit whatever pattern of usage you like. "Fairness" doesn't really come into it, because as with a national telephone call these days there is no directly-attributable cost to a given journey, because the buses, tubes and trains are going to run whether that one specific journey was being made or not. I would say that it is better for an urban network to define your fares structure in simple terms like that than it is to have someone sit down and arbitrarily price fares from A to B and C to D separately. I agree with the simple terms, and I think the current system is appropriate. There are only 8 different single fares within zones 1-6 on prepay. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005, Clive D. W. Feather wrote: Now explain 2-for-1 offers, which our Tesco does a lot of. I can even point at items where N+1 cost *less* than N. How does this fit your conspiracy theory? It gets price(N) off someone who came into the shop intending to spend 0, but who was seduced by the bargainous cheapness on offer. As long as price(N) 2 * cost(N), tesco wins. And more importantly, it means they get your credit card number, which contains SECRET SOLOMONIC KNOWLEDGE encoded by EXTRATERRESTRIALS working for the GNOMES OF ZURICH, which they then use to get your address from the SECRET GOVERNMENT MAINFRAME BURIED UNDER STONEHENGE and pass it on to the MASONS so that they can keep you informed of EXCITING NEW PRODUCTS AND SERVICES. Damn... I wondered why I was getting leaflets in German offering me tax-free baked beans. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 14 Feb 2005:
Paul Corfield wrote: Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID card number. I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis. The Paris Visite pass is quite useful if you are on a tourist visit, as you get into most museums, etc, for free, too.... -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Dave Newt wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 14 Feb 2005:
Paul Terry wrote: You freeze [...] cheese ? If it's cheddar-ish, rather than Brie-ish, then yes. The Brie-type freezes very well - I buy Reblochon en masse when in France & freeze it when I get home - lovely for tartiflettes..... -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:07:01 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote in
, seen in uk.railway: Tom Anderson wrote: [...] And more importantly, it means they get your credit card number, which contains SECRET SOLOMONIC KNOWLEDGE encoded by EXTRATERRESTRIALS working for the GNOMES OF ZURICH, which they then use to get your address from the SECRET GOVERNMENT MAINFRAME BURIED UNDER STONEHENGE and pass it on to the MASONS so that they can keep you informed of EXCITING NEW PRODUCTS AND SERVICES. Damn... I wondered why I was getting leaflets in German offering me tax-free baked beans. Do you think, if I ask them really, really nicely, the gnomes will allow me to use my Tesco Clubcard vouchers and my Nectar points towards the cost of a Swiss Pass so I can actually afford to visit Switzerland this summer? Or maybe the extraterrestrials can create an extra-special, personalised version with Clubcard, Nectar, Amex and/or Boots points? -- Ross, a.k.a. Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:13:54 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote in
, seen in uk.railway: Ross wrote: [...] As an irregular visitor, I like two things: the frequency and the one day bus pass. Three-squids-fifty ain't bad when you consider that here in Lincoln the return fare on my local service from the city centre out to ASDA, a journey of 20 minutes each way or so, is two-squids-twenty. Three squids fifty? You're being overcharged mate :-) Even more of a bargain at three squids. Is it three squids? I remember it having gone up from two-squids-fifty but couldn't remember what to. Last time I was in London I ended up using a 3-day off-peak Travelcard as the underground validity was useful. The theoretical frequency of most services (practice is something else) means I can do things without watching the clock, and compared to the sort of timetables I've gotten used to out here in the sticks, 'tis wonderful. In this bit of London, the practice seems to be pretty decent too. The 49 used to be a problem but since it went double-decker, reliability seems to have dramatically improved. It has to be much better that yesterday's womble on RoadCar: arrive at Newark 15 minutes late courtesy roadworks in Grantham delaying the incredibly infrequent 602, thus missing the bus back to Lincoln and expecting to have to wait nearly 90 minutes for the next one, only for the bus I'd hoped to catch to turn up 15 minutes later as it too was exceptionally late for reasons unknown... Travelling by bus in and around Lincolnshire is fun. As long as you don't actually want to get anywhere at a given time! Mind you that was an intriguing run back from Newark, if only because the variation I was on (service 88) seems to have been scheduled to *not* serve any of the villages it goes near. -- Ross, a.k.a. Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Ross wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:13:54 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote in , seen in uk.railway: Ross wrote: [...] As an irregular visitor, I like two things: the frequency and the one day bus pass. Three-squids-fifty ain't bad when you consider that here in Lincoln the return fare on my local service from the city centre out to ASDA, a journey of 20 minutes each way or so, is two-squids-twenty. Three squids fifty? You're being overcharged mate :-) Even more of a bargain at three squids. Is it three squids? I remember it having gone up from two-squids-fifty but couldn't remember what to. Last time I was in London I ended up using a 3-day off-peak Travelcard as the underground validity was useful. Definitely three squids. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...bus-pass.shtml -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:58:28 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote in
, seen in uk.railway: Ross wrote: [...] Three-squids-fifty ain't bad [...] Three squids fifty? You're being overcharged mate :-) Even more of a bargain at three squids. Is it three squids? I remember it having gone up from two-squids-fifty but couldn't remember what to. Definitely three squids. Ah, well. I must have gotten confused. Nothing new there, of course! -- Ross, a.k.a. Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Mrs Redboots wrote:
Dave Newt wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 14 Feb 2005: Paul Terry wrote: You freeze [...] cheese ? If it's cheddar-ish, rather than Brie-ish, then yes. The Brie-type freezes very well - I buy Reblochon en masse when in France & freeze it when I get home - lovely for tartiflettes..... Oh hurray! Someone who's heard of tartiflette! If you like stinky, try half Reblochon, half Munster! |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Dave Newt wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 15 Feb 2005:
Mrs Redboots wrote: Dave Newt wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 14 Feb 2005: Paul Terry wrote: You freeze [...] cheese ? If it's cheddar-ish, rather than Brie-ish, then yes. The Brie-type freezes very well - I buy Reblochon en masse when in France & freeze it when I get home - lovely for tartiflettes..... Oh hurray! Someone who's heard of tartiflette! If you like stinky, try half Reblochon, half Munster! Yum.... But right now, tartiflette is only served when I have guests, as I'm losing weight! Gorgeous stuff, though.... -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
Jim Brittin wrote:
In article , says... In message Michael Parry wrote: In message , Paul Corfield writes I acknowledged this point but if you have any memory of the Tube prior to zonal fares and I just about do then the old set up had arrays of free standing single fare machine with huge signs above them saying which stations for that fare. Are there really no pictures of the old machines anywhere on the web? A Google and a look at http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk didn't turn up any. IIRC, they had the fare in huge print and the stations served by that fare on the sloping glass top. That's how I remember them, the fare was in red and the machine itself was painted blue. Fare bands were in increments of 3d (old pence). IIRC only singles were available, no returns. The increments were whatever applied at the time, probably was 3d at the time of decimalisation. Penny increments show in the LT Museum's 1948 photo. View at http://makeashorterlink.com/?N3F63287A IIRC there are some at the LT Museum Depot (Acton Town). The next Open Day there is 26/27 February. Not sure of the Museum itself has any. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
In message , Jim Brittin
writes The increments were whatever applied at the time, probably was 3d at the time of decimalisation. Penny increments show in the LT Museum's 1948 photo. View at http://makeashorterlink.com/?N3F63287A Vaguely remember seeing an odd machine somewhere that wasn't just an ordinary single, may have been a child single. Oh yes, those are the ones, thanks. The tickets were green cardboard when I first used them but soon changed to yellow with a magnetic coating on the back that would operate the new barriers. -- Michael Parry 'The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret' (Terry Pratchett, The Truth) |
Future of CDRs and NR season tickets in TfL zones?
"Michael Parry" wrote in message ... Oh yes, those are the ones, thanks. The tickets were green cardboard when I first used them but soon changed to yellow with a magnetic coating on the back that would operate the new barriers. AIUI the magnetic coating didn't contain any more information than 'This is a ticket; gate, please open.' Peter |
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