Whay can't we do the same here?
 

I am a Canadian now living over here,and in Toronto (where I'm from) we have
our transit system (the busses and tube) running on a single fare system
where for about 80p gets you anywhere the transit runs in town on any and
all connecting routes.It seems absoultely horrendous that we here in London
have to pay through the nose by paying for every bus we hop on when other
cities around the world have similar systems around the world are similar to
Toronto (one fare covers destination to destination travel instead of one
fare per ride).Does anyone else think this is highway robbery?
Glen (not Gay)


--
I was an only child.....eventually!

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

gay merrington wrote:

we here in London
have to pay through the nose by paying for every bus we hop on when other
cities around the world have similar systems around the world are similar to
Toronto

Yes, London transport is one of the most expensive, but you can get an off-peak
travel card for bus and tube in zones 1/2 for £4.70.

I've been to Toronto - there is only a small metro system and the buses take
ages to get round a huge city. Took us 2 hours to get to the zoo, i recall.

M.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

marcb wrote:
gay merrington wrote:

we here in London
have to pay through the nose by paying for every bus we hop on
when other cities around the world have similar systems around the
world are similar to Toronto

Yes, London transport is one of the most expensive, but you can get
an off-peak travel card for bus and tube in zones 1/2 for £4.70.

Any Travelcard is valid for buses in *all* zones. A one-day Bus Pass
costs £3 which I would not call highway robbery.

Are the fares in Toronto subsidised out of taxation revenue?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

On Fri, 20 May 2005, gay merrington wrote:

I am a Canadian now living over here,and in Toronto (where I'm from) we
have our transit system (the busses and tube) running on a single fare
system where for about 80p gets you anywhere the transit runs in town on
any and all connecting routes.It seems absoultely horrendous that we
here in London have to pay through the nose by paying for every bus we
hop on when other cities around the world have similar systems around
the world are similar to Toronto (one fare covers destination to
destination travel instead of one fare per ride).Does anyone else think
this is highway robbery?

Yes. Not the prices, or the difference in price between tube and bus
tickets, which are a function of the different costs and business model
here, but the lack of through tickets for buses or multimodal trips (or a
system of 'transfers', which is how it's handled in Vancouver).

Tube tickets are more or less fine - you pay a price based on zonal
distance, then you use however many trains it takes to get there. That's
how it should be. Buses, however, are not fine - you pay per leg, not for
the whole journey, so i might have to pay two or three times as much for a
journey as someone else making one of similar length, just because TfL
decided to give him a direct service rather than me - talk about adding
insult to injury!

It's just as bad if you want to go multimodal - if your trip is between LU
and NR stations, you can use any combination of tubes and trains, i think,
but you can't, AIUI, use a train as part of an LU-LU trip (not that
there's ever a pressing need to), and you can't make buses or trams part
of your journey either.

And before someone starts bleating about travelcards - i'm talking about
simple journeys. People shouldn't have to buy a bleeding travelcard to
make a single journey cost-effectively!

tom

--
20 Minutes into the Future

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2005, gay merrington wrote:

I am a Canadian now living over here,and in Toronto (where I'm from)
we have our transit system (the busses and tube) running on a single
fare system where for about 80p gets you anywhere the transit runs
in town on any and all connecting routes.It seems absoultely
horrendous that we here in London have to pay through the nose by
paying for every bus we hop on when other cities around the world
have similar systems around the world are similar to Toronto (one
fare covers destination to destination travel instead of one fare
per ride).Does anyone else think this is highway robbery?

Yes. Not the prices, or the difference in price between tube and bus
tickets, which are a function of the different costs and business
model here, but the lack of through tickets for buses or multimodal
trips (or a system of 'transfers', which is how it's handled in
Vancouver).

Tube tickets are more or less fine - you pay a price based on zonal
distance, then you use however many trains it takes to get there.
That's how it should be. Buses, however, are not fine - you pay per
leg, not for the whole journey, so i might have to pay two or three
times as much for a journey as someone else making one of similar
length, just because TfL decided to give him a direct service rather
than me - talk about adding insult to injury!

It's just as bad if you want to go multimodal - if your trip is
between LU and NR stations, you can use any combination of tubes and
trains, i think, but you can't, AIUI, use a train as part of an LU-LU
trip (not that there's ever a pressing need to), and you can't make
buses or trams part of your journey either.

And before someone starts bleating about travelcards - i'm talking
about simple journeys. People shouldn't have to buy a bleeding
travelcard to make a single journey cost-effectively!


For a LU to LU journey is buying a Travelcard in some way more difficult
than buying a point to point ticket?

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

On Fri, 20 May 2005 11:03:00 +0100, "gay merrington"
wrote:

Does anyone else think this is highway robbery?

Yes, I think it is very poor to penalise people for making journeys
that require a change over those who do not, though there is the
logistical issue of avoiding people passing interchange tickets on to
other passengers on exiting the bus.

However, this is the traditional way in which buses tend to be
operated in the UK in most locations - transfer tickets are rare
(though day tickets are quite common). Old habits die hard.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

On Fri, 20 May 2005 11:32:10 +0000 (UTC), "Brimstone"
wrote:

For a LU to LU journey is buying a Travelcard in some way more difficult
than buying a point to point ticket?

It isn't, but it's quite possibly more expensive.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Richard J. wrote:
marcb wrote:

gay merrington wrote:


we here in London
have to pay through the nose by paying for every bus we hop on
when other cities around the world have similar systems around the
world are similar to Toronto

Yes, London transport is one of the most expensive, but you can get
an off-peak travel card for bus and tube in zones 1/2 for £4.70.


Any Travelcard is valid for buses in *all* zones. A one-day Bus Pass
costs £3 which I would not call highway robbery.

Are the fares in Toronto subsidised out of taxation revenue?

Yes, but by comparatively little in comparison with most systems in North
America - a little over 80% of the TTC's income comes from the farebox, I believe.

--

Stephen

BEN: You know why I wanted to become a doctor?
MINION: Flattering drawstring pants?

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

A one-day bus pass is £3.00. Not too bad, perhaps, but that's still £15.00 a
week if you use if every weekday.

If I want to go from home to, say, the Strand, I can do it with one bus
trip. If I travel after 9:30, and use my Oyster prepay, it's 80p, so there
and back is £1.60. It doesn't take much working out to see that this is a
lot less than £3.00. If I did this every day for a week I would save £7.00.

However, if I want to go to, say, Gower Street, that's two bus rides, total
cost £1.60. I often walk to save the mone, or use a bus which takes me
almost there but not quite. It's stupid that I have to do this. Ok, it's
only 80p, but twice a day, every day, it soon adds up.

I can understand that TfL might be worried that people would pass their
"transfers" to friends or even sell them, although, for some reason, this
doesn't seem to worry bus operators in North America. But with my Oyster
card, this could be done automatically - no paper ticket, so nothing to pass
on to someone else, no risk of misuse. If they can do "daily capping" with
Oyster, they could do transfers. It seems that it's just tradition that
stops them.

-- Philip

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 May 2005 11:32:10 +0000 (UTC), "Brimstone"
wrote:

For a LU to LU journey is buying a Travelcard in some way more difficult
than buying a point to point ticket?

It isn't, but it's quite possibly more expensive.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Pingle wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 21 May 2005:

A one-day bus pass is £3.00. Not too bad, perhaps, but that's still £15.00 a
week if you use if every weekday.

So if you think you're going to, you buy a weekly bus pass for £11.00,
saving £4.00. Or a monthly one for £42.30, saving even more - and in
both cases you can use buses to your heart's content, and trams, and at
weekends....

I usually buy a monthly bus pass simply for the convenience!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

On Sat, 21 May 2005 15:02:24 +0100, "Pingle"
wrote:

A one-day bus pass is £3.00. Not too bad, perhaps, but that's still £15.00 a
week if you use if every weekday.

But a bit stupid to do so, given that a one week Bus Pass is £11.00!

If I want to go from home to, say, the Strand, I can do it with one bus
trip. If I travel after 9:30, and use my Oyster prepay, it's 80p, so there
and back is £1.60. It doesn't take much working out to see that this is a
lot less than £3.00. If I did this every day for a week I would save £7.00.

Or only saying £3.00 compared to a bus Pass.

However, if I want to go to, say, Gower Street, that's two bus rides, total
cost £1.60. I often walk to save the mone, or use a bus which takes me
almost there but not quite. It's stupid that I have to do this. Ok, it's
only 80p, but twice a day, every day, it soon adds up.

Yes, to £5.00 more than buying a seven-day Bus Pass, and £1.00 more
than buying One-Day Passes.

--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Pingle wrote:
snip
However, if I want to go to, say, Gower Street, that's two bus rides,
total
cost £1.60. I often walk to save the mone, or use a bus which takes
me
almost there but not quite. It's stupid that I have to do this. Ok,
it's
only 80p, but twice a day, every day, it soon adds up.

Well campaign for the reintroduction of Routemasters then.. One of the
things remaining RMs are famous for is having conductors who rarely go
upstairs to sell tickets / read Oystercards (last time I was on a RM my
card wasn't read at all during the 45 min journey)

The unfortunate consequence of this is that those of us with season
tickets are subsidising other peoples travel...

Alightly related: What is happening when one/two people get on a
normal bus but the driver keeps tapping one of the keys on his ticket
box thing (keeps coming up on the display as travelcard and pipping)

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Pingle wrote:
snip
However, if I want to go to, say, Gower Street, that's two bus rides,
total
cost £1.60. I often walk to save the mone, or use a bus which takes
me
almost there but not quite. It's stupid that I have to do this. Ok,
it's
only 80p, but twice a day, every day, it soon adds up.

Well campaign for the reintroduction of Routemasters then.. One of the
things remaining RMs are famous for is having conductors who rarely go
upstairs to sell tickets / read Oystercards (last time I was on a RM my
card wasn't read at all during the 45 min journey)

The unfortunate consequence of this is that those of us with season
tickets are subsidising other peoples travel...

Slightly related: What is happening when one/two people get on a
normal bus but the driver keeps tapping one of the keys on his ticket
box thing (keeps coming up on the display as travelcard and pipping)

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

On 21 May 2005 20:23:24 -0700, "Chris!" wrote:

Alightly related: What is happening when one/two people get on a
normal bus but the driver keeps tapping one of the keys on his ticket
box thing (keeps coming up on the display as travelcard and pipping)

The driver is logging more Travelcard users than are actually
boarding, probably because he can't be bothered actually counting
them.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

I can understand that TfL might be worried that people would pass their
"transfers" to friends or even sell them, although, for some reason, this
doesn't seem to worry bus operators in North America. But with my Oyster
card, this could be done automatically - no paper ticket, so nothing to pass
on to someone else, no risk of misuse. If they can do "daily capping" with
Oyster, they could do transfers. It seems that it's just tradition that
stops them.


Transfer functionality is apparently built into Oyster Prepay and used
with transfers to and from the Tramlink feeder buses and the trams.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

As Dave Arquati recently pointed out, if you're buying a weekly or
longer Bus Pass, you may find it helpful to stump up a tiny bit more
(in the case of a weekly ticket it's just 20p) to get a single zone
Travelcard. Any weekly Travelcard for any zone except zone 1 will cost
you £11.20, as opposed to £11 for a weekly Bus Pass.

Regarding bus transfers, I reckon it's a possibility for the future,
especially as it could be implemented easily with the Oyster card
system. Indeed (as Matthew Dickenson pointed out), on Croydon Tramlink
a second journey is free if it's started within 70 minutes of the first
- which is a transfer in so many words. The problem is TfL would lose
money doing this, and their budget is pretty tight as it is.

But public transport is expensive in London relative to the rest of the
world. It can be fairly expensive all over the UK as well.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Mizter T wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 24 May 2005:

As Dave Arquati recently pointed out, if you're buying a weekly or
longer Bus Pass, you may find it helpful to stump up a tiny bit more
(in the case of a weekly ticket it's just 20p) to get a single zone
Travelcard. Any weekly Travelcard for any zone except zone 1 will cost
you £11.20, as opposed to £11 for a weekly Bus Pass.

Yes, but you can't use it to get anywhere decent. Like today I thought
of going over to Surrey Quays, and that involves a change at London
Bridge. I suppose I can use it on trains, though - Streatham to Peckham.
No, that wouldn't work - Streatham is in Zone 3. Everywhere useful
seems to be either in zone 3 or zone 1. I suppose Clapham High Street
to Denmark Hill to Lewisham.... but I don't want to do that very often.

But public transport is expensive in London relative to the rest of the
world. It can be fairly expensive all over the UK as well.

It's a lot cheaper in London than in some other places!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 May 2005

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Mrs Redboots wrote:

Yes, but you can't use it to get anywhere decent. Like today I
thought
of going over to Surrey Quays, and that involves a change at London
Bridge. I suppose I can use it on trains, though - Streatham to
Peckham.
No, that wouldn't work - Streatham is in Zone 3. Everywhere useful
seems to be either in zone 3 or zone 1. I suppose Clapham High
Street
to Denmark Hill to Lewisham.... but I don't want to do that very
often.

Hmm... Mrs C had a similar problem wanting to go from Gipsy Hill (Z3)
to Barnes (Z3) this weekend, which she couldn't do using her Zone 3
weekly travelcard (because it can't be done without a change at Clapham
Junction). There wasn't even an easy way of paying the extra
fare - huge queue at ticket office put us off buying a YP CDR from
boundary Z3 to Putney - so we ended up just buying a return to Putney
from the machine. Of course, if we had been on the tube, this wouldn't
have been a problem (since said Travelcard is on an Oyster). Gah.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Mrs Redboots wrote:
Mizter T wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 24 May 2005:


As Dave Arquati recently pointed out, if you're buying a weekly or
longer Bus Pass, you may find it helpful to stump up a tiny bit more
(in the case of a weekly ticket it's just 20p) to get a single zone
Travelcard. Any weekly Travelcard for any zone except zone 1 will cost
you £11.20, as opposed to £11 for a weekly Bus Pass.


Yes, but you can't use it to get anywhere decent. Like today I thought
of going over to Surrey Quays, and that involves a change at London
Bridge. I suppose I can use it on trains, though - Streatham to Peckham.
No, that wouldn't work - Streatham is in Zone 3. Everywhere useful
seems to be either in zone 3 or zone 1. I suppose Clapham High Street
to Denmark Hill to Lewisham.... but I don't want to do that very often.

It doesn't have to be useful just for within-zone journeys; for a Zone 2
Travelcard, you'll save 30p or 40p on every single Tube journey you make
to/from Zone 1, offsetting the extra 20p cost of the Travelcard compared
to the bus pass.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Dave Arquati wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 24 May 2005:


It doesn't have to be useful just for within-zone journeys; for a Zone 2
Travelcard, you'll save 30p or 40p on every single Tube journey you
make to/from Zone 1, offsetting the extra 20p cost of the Travelcard
compared to the bus pass.

Oyster can cope with that, then?
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 May 2005

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

It does all depend on our respective definitions of decent!

If it's a zone 2 Travelcard then I've found a number of rail journeys
that either I or my associates would use in south London. Clapham to
Camberwell by bus can be a bit tortuously slow during busy times
(including weekend afternoons), but Clapham High Street to Denmark Hill
is a breezy 5 minutes (though it only breezes every half hour).

Also Elephant & Castle/ Denmark Hill/ Peckham Rye to Lewisham, with the
possibility of interchange onto the DLR up into the Isle of Dogs.

Plus if you lived near the DLR it'd be very useful to have a zone 2 (or
even zone 3) Travelcard.

And lots of other single zone rail/ tube journeys that could be useful
to some are apparent - East Putney up to Earls Court or Hammersmith on
the District, Clapham Junction to Vauxhall by rail (a frequent service)
then onto buses if needed, Beckenham into Bromley South, Sutton to
Croydon, New Cross (Gate) to Whitechapel - with a change at Canada
Water to get to Canary Wharf or North Greenwich, Hackney Central to
Highbury/ Camden/ Kentish Town, Clapham (South/ Common/ North) to
Elephant and Castle. Have I bored you all to death yet?!

My point is that if a Bus Pass is purchased partly on account of it's
economy value, many passengers might as well splash out a bit extra if
there's the possibility they might complete such an orbital journey, or
perhaps if they're travelling into town (zone 1) by bus they could jump
on the tube / train to a major bus interchange (i.e. Vauxhall or
Elephant and Castle) which may speed the journey up. Or, as Mr Arquati
points out, when using Oyster pre-pay it would make the occasional tube
journey that bit cheaper as you're only paying for a zone 1 journey,
rather than zone 1 & 2.

Apologies for labouring the point!

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

In my experience, the conductors used to be a lot more thorough then
they are at the moment and were in the recent past. I say this from
experience, as when I was a 'wee lad' I lived on a Routemaster route,
and have for many years since, and I'd say I've a fair few hours under
my belt riding them!

In fact one of the conductors on said route was given an MBE, having
been nominated for his kindly demeanour and generally sound manner.

The knowledge that your job is about to become obsolete is not really a
great motivation to provide a thorough service - hence I think that in
the dying months of the Routemasters some conductors often became
pretty laissez faire with regards to their ticket checking duties.

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Mrs Redboots wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 24 May 2005:


It doesn't have to be useful just for within-zone journeys; for a Zone 2
Travelcard, you'll save 30p or 40p on every single Tube journey you
make to/from Zone 1, offsetting the extra 20p cost of the Travelcard
compared to the bus pass.


Oyster can cope with that, then?

Yep... ticket extensions should deduct appropriately from your prepay.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Whay can't we do the same here?
 

Dave Arquati wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 25 May 2005:

Mrs Redboots wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 24 May 2005:

It doesn't have to be useful just for within-zone journeys; for a Zone
2
Travelcard, you'll save 30p or 40p on every single Tube journey you
make to/from Zone 1, offsetting the extra 20p cost of the Travelcard
compared to the bus pass.

Oyster can cope with that, then?

Yep... ticket extensions should deduct appropriately from your prepay.

Thanks. I might try that next time I need to buy a Travelcard.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 May 2005