Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Steven wrote:

And you can hardly expect them to configure the Electrostars so that
they can carry vast quantities of bikes just for one day a year.

One could, however, argue that had they specified trains which could carry a
sensible number of bikes in the first place, then cyclists would use them
frequently and with vigour. When the old British Snail stopped charging for
bikes on trains twenty-something years ago, weekend trains out of London
were suddenly awash with cyclists heading out to the country...

--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
Electricity comes from other planets.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:46:10 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
wrote:

One could, however, argue that had they specified trains which could carry a
sensible number of bikes in the first place.

They *will* carry a sensible number of cycles.

They just can't cope with the number that they'd get for an event such as this.

I use Electrostars regularly, and have never seen more than two bikes in one
carriage. And that's *very* rare. You can't expect then to waste space on
providing facilities that are rarely used but would detract from the comfort and
utility of the trains for their bread and butter work.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Steven wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:46:10 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
wrote:

One could, however, argue that had they specified trains which could carry a
sensible number of bikes in the first place.

They *will* carry a sensible number of cycles.

They just can't cope with the number that they'd get for an event such as this.

I use Electrostars regularly, and have never seen more than two bikes in one
carriage. And that's *very* rare. You can't expect then to waste space on
providing facilities that are rarely used but would detract from the comfort and
utility of the trains for their bread and butter work.

The answer is to have trains that are flexible use. Ie carriages that
will allow bulky luggage, prams, bikes, wheelchairs etc. or hods of
standing cattle^^^^^^^commuters during crush hour. There is nothing to
be lost and everything to be gained from such a configuration. Oh,
except that people might actually use the trains with a bit more than
just a small briefcase..

I would be quite happy for bulky goods (large suitcases, bicycles,
prams etc.) to be carried at a nominal handling charge if I could be
reasonably sure of getting a bike oto a train. It makes a mockery of
the train service when a family of five cannot travel with bikes.. I'm
thinking of the highland lines where you can only fit 2 bikes per train
(officially).

...d

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

David Martin wrote:

I would be quite happy for bulky goods (large suitcases, bicycles,
prams etc.) to be carried at a nominal handling charge if I could be
reasonably sure of getting a bike oto a train. It makes a mockery of
the train service when a family of five cannot travel with bikes.. I'm
thinking of the highland lines where you can only fit 2 bikes per
train (officially).

When I was a penniless student oaf, the Uni cycling club would meet up on a
Sunday morning, decide where we wanted to go, ride to the appropriate
station, get on the train, go to the green and pleasant countryside, ride
around the place and return. Nowadays this would not be possible.
Apparently this is "progress".

However, I believe you /can/ still take a washing machine or a stuffed
hippopotamus with you as "luggage".

--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
While you were out at the Rollright Stones, I came and set fire to your
Shed.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On 17 Jun 2005 08:24:13 -0700, "David Martin"
wrote:



Steven wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:46:10 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
wrote:

One could, however, argue that had they specified trains which could carry a
sensible number of bikes in the first place.

They *will* carry a sensible number of cycles.

They just can't cope with the number that they'd get for an event such as this.

I use Electrostars regularly, and have never seen more than two bikes in one
carriage. And that's *very* rare. You can't expect then to waste space on
providing facilities that are rarely used but would detract from the comfort and
utility of the trains for their bread and butter work.

The answer is to have trains that are flexible use. Ie carriages that
will allow bulky luggage, prams, bikes, wheelchairs etc. or hods of
standing cattle^^^^^^^commuters during crush hour. There is nothing to
be lost and everything to be gained from such a configuration. Oh,
except that people might actually use the trains with a bit more than
just a small briefcase..

You can do all that on an Electrostar.

There is a limit, however.

Just the same as there is a limit to the number of people you can squeeze on.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On 06/17/2005 16:33:44 "Dave Larrington" wrote:

David Martin wrote:

I would be quite happy for bulky goods (large suitcases, bicycles, prams
etc.) to be carried at a nominal handling charge if I could be reasonably
sure of getting a bike oto a train. It makes a mockery of the train
service when a family of five cannot travel with bikes.. I'm thinking of
the highland lines where you can only fit 2 bikes per train (officially).

When I was a penniless student oaf, the Uni cycling club would meet up on
a Sunday morning, decide where we wanted to go, ride to the appropriate
station, get on the train, go to the green and pleasant countryside, ride
around the place and return. Nowadays this would not be possible.
Apparently this is "progress".

However, I believe you /can/ still take a washing machine or a stuffed
hippopotamus with you as "luggage".

But Uni cycles only have one wheel! heh

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Steven wrote:
On 17 Jun 2005 08:24:13 -0700, "David Martin"
wrote:
I use Electrostars regularly, and have never seen more than two bikes in one
carriage. And that's *very* rare. You can't expect then to waste space on
providing facilities that are rarely used but would detract from the comfort and
utility of the trains for their bread and butter work.

The answer is to have trains that are flexible use. Ie carriages that
will allow bulky luggage, prams, bikes, wheelchairs etc. or hods of
standing cattle^^^^^^^commuters during crush hour. There is nothing to
be lost and everything to be gained from such a configuration. Oh,
except that people might actually use the trains with a bit more than
just a small briefcase..

You can do all that on an Electrostar.

Where do I find one of these mythical beasts? Any online plans as to
the internal layout, and how many bikes will one take.

There is a limit, however.

Just the same as there is a limit to the number of people you can squeeze on.

Indeed. Space inside a train is not infinite. But it is a bit galling
to be told you cannot take a bike because there are already two on
board and over half the seats are empty (or the train is so choc-a-bloc
with peoples suitcases)

...d

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

"David Martin" wrote in message
oups.com...

Where do I find one of these mythical beasts? Any online plans as to
the internal layout, and how many bikes will one take.

Each Electrostar will take (officially) two bicycles in the marked area for
bicycles, wheelchairs etc. (look for the cycle/wheelchair symbols on the
outside of the doors). Most trains are formed of more than one Electrostar
unit (for example, in the peaks Brighton trains are formed of four three-car
units, theoretically offering at least eight cycle spaces). In practise, on
most services out of the peak, no-one will object to additional bicycles
being parked in the vestibule areas. I, for one, have never had a problem
when travelling with a cycle.

Being both a cyclist and a railway enthusiast it is interesting to see the
arguments presented from both viewpoints. For quite a while now there have
been many complaints about the fact the the Electrostar and Turbostar (the
diesel version) devote one third of an entire coach to the disabled-access
toilet, the five (or less, depends on the specification by the train
operating company) tip-up seats that can be used as wheelchair spaces or for
people travelling with wheelchair passengers and the cycle stowage areas.
Critics regularly point out that there is no need for more than one
disabled-access toilet per train and that when trains are formed of more
than one unit there is an over-provision of such accommodation, where normal
seating could be provided. Nice in theory but how do you cater for flexible
train lengths using fixed-formation trains, where you have the regulatory
requirement to provide disabled accomodation, whether the train is a
three-car unit or a twelve-car formation?

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On 17 Jun 2005 09:21:50 -0700, "David Martin"
wrote:

You can do all that on an Electrostar.

Where do I find one of these mythical beasts?

London Victoria Station.

There are lots there.

Indeed. Space inside a train is not infinite. But it is a bit galling
to be told you cannot take a bike because there are already two on
board and over half the seats are empty (or the train is so choc-a-bloc
with peoples suitcases)

It is annoying when people apply regulations that are designed for worst case
loading for a lightly loaded train, but they can't really spend a lot of time
second guessing how many people are going to get on down the line.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

When I was a penniless student oaf, the Uni cycling club
would meet up on a Sunday morning, decide where we
wanted to go, ride to the appropriate station, get on the
train, go to the green and pleasant countryside, ride around
the place and return. Nowadays this would not be possible.

Why not? Almost all the TOCs take cycles free off peak
(and it's off peak all day on Sundays). Some long distance
journeys 'require' pre-booking, but on MML and GNER if
you turn up with a bike and they've got space in the goods
section they'll take the bike even if you don't have a
reservation (the GNER Mallards have nice new yellow
bike racks built in). MML don't even require reservations
on Meridian trains.

See: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/cycling.htm


Matt Ashby
www.mattashby.com

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

In ,
Jack Taylor typed:

.... there have been many complaints about the fact the the
Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version) devote one third of an
entire coach to the disabled-access toilet,

A third??

The Electrostars and Turbostars that you travel on must be very different
from those that work everywhere else?



--
Bob

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

"Bob Wood" wrote in message
...
In ,
Jack Taylor typed:

.... there have been many complaints about the fact the the
Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version) devote one third of an
entire coach to the disabled-access toilet,

A third??

The Electrostars and Turbostars that you travel on must be very different
from those that work everywhere else?

Yes, there's such a significant difference between a quarter and a third,
isn't there? ;-)

It's the repeated incorrect references to 1/3 and 2/3 doors that tends to
make you think in thirds!

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:11:10 GMT, "Jack Taylor"
wrote:

Yes, there's such a significant difference between a quarter and a third,
isn't there? ;-)

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2 bays
(or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2 bays
(or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were discussing
the area taken up by the disabled toilet, the seating reserved for
wheelchair passengers and their companions and for bicycle stowage, which is
the entire area between one vestibule and the corridor connection at the end
of the vehicle.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

David Martin wrote:
I would be quite happy for bulky goods (large suitcases, bicycles,
prams etc.) to be carried at a nominal handling charge if I could be
reasonably sure of getting a bike oto a train. It makes a mockery of
the train service when a family of five cannot travel with bikes.. I'm
thinking of the highland lines where you can only fit 2 bikes per train
(officially).

Far North Line (which uses 158s) is two bikes per two coaches, but in
the past ScotRail have put a van on to transport additional bikes

Highland Main Line seems to be Turbostars a lot now and they're
currently being modified with a second bike rack so that they can now
take four bikes per three coaches (and it's not unusual to see them
doubled up). (Or there's GNER's Highland Chieftan which will officially
take 6 bikes IIRC.)

West Highland line (which uses 156s) is six bikes per two coaches and
trains are usually formed of at least two units (although the number of
bikes depends on the amount of luggage being carried as well).

I doubt you could call the situation on the FNL or HML ideal however
(certainly if there's five of you).

Cheers,
eat

--
|"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room."
....| -- President Merkin Muffley
ScR|http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scot-rail/
Pix|http://photos.eatnet.org.uk/RoyalScotsman - new photos online

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

In ,
Jack Taylor typed:

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2
bays (or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were
discussing the area taken up by the disabled toilet, , which is the entire
area between one vestibule and
the corridor connection at the end of the vehicle.


How can it be that we are not discussing the size of the disabled toilet?
This part of the thread is in answer to and relates solely to your statement
that ".... there have been many complaints about the fact the the
Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version) devote one third of an entire
coach to the disabled-access toilet,"

If you want to add "the seating reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions and for bicycle stowage", you should have done so in the first
instance. But it still doesn't amount to one-third of an entire coach, does
it?

Your hole is big enough. Why don't you stop digging?

--
Bob

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Bob Wood wrote:
Jack Taylor typed:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message
It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2
bays (or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were
discussing the area taken up by the disabled toilet,
which is the entire area between one vestibule and
the corridor connection at the end of the vehicle.

How can it be that we are not discussing the size of the disabled toilet?
This part of the thread is in answer to and relates solely to your statement
that ".... there have been many complaints about the fact the the
Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version) devote one third of an entire
coach to the disabled-access toilet,"

Which YOU trimmed at that point. Jack added 'the five (or less,
depends on the specification by the train operating company) tip-up
seats that can be used as wheelchair spaces or for people travelling
with wheelchair passengers and the cycle stowage areas.'

The comma after toilet is a big clue.

If you want to add "the seating reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions and for bicycle stowage", you should have done so in the first
instance.

As he did!

Your hole is big enough. Why don't you stop digging?

I think you'll find it's you in the hole.

The bike and wheelchair space should, of course, be flexible, with
tip-up seats. It would be easy and cheap to provide more flexible
space, allowing more bikes to be carried when necessary, and more bums
on seats the rest of the time.

As it is, the operators have chosen to turn away useful off-peak
business. The rest of the time, they have a nice seat-free area for
crush-loading with commuters - and they can blame the lack of seats on
having to provide for cyclists.

Colin McKenzie

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

In ,
Colin McKenzie typed:

Bob Wood wrote:
How can it be that we are not discussing the size of the disabled
toilet? This part of the thread is in answer to and relates solely
to your statement that ".... there have been many complaints about
the fact the the Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version)
devote one third of an entire coach to the disabled-access toilet,"

Which YOU trimmed at that point. Jack added 'the five (or less,
depends on the specification by the train operating company) tip-up
seats that can be used as wheelchair spaces or for people travelling
with wheelchair passengers and the cycle stowage areas.'

The comma after toilet is a big clue.

If you want to add "the seating reserved for wheelchair passengers
and their companions and for bicycle stowage", you should have done
so in the first instance.

As he did!

Yes, he did. And I apologise for not understanding what he had written
correctly before criticising what he had written.

I think I read the comma as a semi-colon and missed the 'that' in the second
part of the sentence.

Again, apologies to Jack - and apologies to you for having had to take
the time to point out my error.


Your hole is big enough. Why don't you stop digging?

I think you'll find it's you in the hole.

Can you lend me a ladder?


--
Bob

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

In ,
Colin McKenzie typed:

Bob Wood wrote:
How can it be that we are not discussing the size of the disabled
toilet? This part of the thread is in answer to and relates solely
to your statement that ".... there have been many complaints about
the fact the the Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version)
devote one third of an entire coach to the disabled-access toilet,"

Which YOU trimmed at that point. Jack added 'the five (or less,
depends on the specification by the train operating company) tip-up
seats that can be used as wheelchair spaces or for people travelling
with wheelchair passengers and the cycle stowage areas.'

The comma after toilet is a big clue.

If you want to add "the seating reserved for wheelchair passengers
and their companions and for bicycle stowage", you should have done
so in the first instance.

As he did!

Yes, he did. And I apologise for not understanding what he had written
correctly before criticising what he had written.

I think I read the comma as a semi-colon and missed the 'that' in the second
part of the sentence.

Again, apologies to Jack - and apologies to you for having had to take
the time to point out my error.


Your hole is big enough. Why don't you stop digging?

I think you'll find it's you in the hole.

Can you lend me a ladder?


--
Bob

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

In ,
Colin McKenzie typed:

Bob Wood wrote:
How can it be that we are not discussing the size of the disabled
toilet? This part of the thread is in answer to and relates solely
to your statement that ".... there have been many complaints about
the fact the the Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version)
devote one third of an entire coach to the disabled-access toilet,"

Which YOU trimmed at that point. Jack added 'the five (or less,
depends on the specification by the train operating company) tip-up
seats that can be used as wheelchair spaces or for people travelling
with wheelchair passengers and the cycle stowage areas.'

The comma after toilet is a big clue.

If you want to add "the seating reserved for wheelchair passengers
and their companions and for bicycle stowage", you should have done
so in the first instance.

As he did!

Yes, he did. And I apologise for not understanding what he had written
correctly before criticising it.

I think I read the comma as a semi-colon and missed the 'that' in the second
part of the sentence.

Again, apologies to Jack - and apologies to you for having had to take
the time to point out my error.


Your hole is big enough. Why don't you stop digging?

I think you'll find it's you in the hole.

Can you lend me a ladder?


--
Bob

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:54:51 GMT, "Bob Wood" wrote:

Yes, he did. And I apologise for not understanding what he had written
correctly before criticising what he had written.

I think I read the comma as a semi-colon and missed the 'that' in the second
part of the sentence.

I made the same mistake, but fortunately, for some reason I checked.

It's always a problem with the 'chinese whisper' type of environment you get
with this sort of discussion.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2 bays
(or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were discussing
the area taken up by the disabled toilet, the seating reserved for
wheelchair passengers and their companions and for bicycle stowage, which
is
the entire area between one vestibule and the corridor connection at the
end
of the vehicle.

On the SET 375s one of the seats in this area is labelled for the use of the
conductor. Compare this with the space (two-fifths of a coach) originally
provided in 4VEPs for the guard and the van which, after it stopped being
used for mail and parcels, was reserved for wheelchair passengers, and their
companions who had to stand, and bicycle stowage. It was probably a minority
of services on which a bicycle was actually conveyed, let alone more
bicycles than can be stowed in a 375, and the wheelchair passengers in a
4VEP had no access to a toilet.

Peter

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:43:38 GMT, "Jack Taylor"
wrote:

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were discussing
the area taken up by the disabled toilet, the seating reserved for
wheelchair passengers and their companions and for bicycle stowage, which is
the entire area between one vestibule and the corridor connection at the end
of the vehicle.

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving in
the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Assuming the Electrostar layout is the same as the Turbostar, the
space concerned consists of two seats facing two tip-up seats with a
movable table, with two and a bike space on the other side. The
density is not substantially more generous than elsewhere (though it
is slightly). Thus, it is not really fair to say that an entire third
(or quarter, or whatever) is completely given over to that function.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:02:13 +0100, Colin McKenzie
wrote:

The bike and wheelchair space should, of course, be flexible, with
tip-up seats.

In the Turbo- and Electrostar, or certainly all the versions of said
units I've come across, it *is*.

That said, there is a major benefit in *not* having flexible space, as
my experience is that people sitting on tip-up seats are reluctant to
move for a bicycle, so it ends up wedged in the vestibule anyway. In
the event that the train is busy and there is no bicycle on board,
there is more standing room. If it isn't busy, there's probably
enough seats anyway.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:54 GMT, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving in
the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone with a
wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Neil Williams wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:02:13 +0100, Colin McKenzie
wrote:

The bike and wheelchair space should, of course, be flexible, with
tip-up seats.

In the Turbo- and Electrostar, or certainly all the versions of said
units I've come across, it *is*.

That said, there is a major benefit in *not* having flexible space, as
my experience is that people sitting on tip-up seats are reluctant to
move for a bicycle, so it ends up wedged in the vestibule anyway. In
the event that the train is busy and there is no bicycle on board,
there is more standing room. If it isn't busy, there's probably
enough seats anyway.

You obviously have a different view of flexible space. My view is
something more along th elines of that in the Oslo airport train
(Flytoget) where the flexible use space is not seated. but is an empty
space. For wheelchair users there could be a pair of flip down seats at
the door end of the space, provide 'bum rest' style seats which will be
above the height of chains etc., and then you have a space that copes
with pushchairs, suitcases, bicycles, tandems, wheelcharis, stuffed
hippos etc. and can be used to take more passengers during rush hour
than traditional seated accommodation.

...d

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Steven wrote:

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone
with a
wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.

I have a few times at Clapham Juncttion and occasionally on long distance
routes. But at the moment frankly a lot of stations are utterly inaccessible
for wheelchair users, leaving only a few combinations of routes viable. Even
the stations that are good at allowing a wheelchair user to make it onto the
platform from the street then let the side down by not having the platform
at roll-on level.

I recall a leaflet from either Railtrack or one of the South London TOCs
from a decade ago about wheelchair users which was full of obstacles - from
what it seemed the wheelchairs used by about 2/3 of wheelchair users would
not be allowed for one reason or another. Staff are not able to put chairs
on and off trains - fair enough but they equally seem unable to use the
portable ramps issued to most stations. For all the central effort to make
the railways accessible and DDA compliant, a lot of staff on the ground are
not aiding that - similar to the way a lot of London bus drivers seem unable
to learn how to operate the ramps.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On 19 Jun 2005 11:02:18 -0700, "David Martin"
wrote:

You obviously have a different view of flexible space.

Sounds like I do; the typical British variant tends to include seats,
which in practice is not always a benefit.

I liked Merseyrail's approach pre-refurb, where they simply removed 4
seats from a pair of bays making a very wide bay, and fixed a
horizontal handrail in the middle. This space could then be used for
whatever was required. All that needed to be added was a bit of fixed
shock cord for holding bikes in place.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Steven wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:54 GMT, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving in
the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone with a
wheel chair use a train.

Out of three journeys in the last wek my bike has shared a vestibule
area with a wheelchair user - on a train that has no designated disabled areas.

John B

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

For all the central effort to make
the railways accessible and DDA compliant, a lot of staff on the ground are
not aiding that...

All too often there are no staff anyway.
For example at Micheldever (a station I use a fair amount) there are no
staff after about 9-ish and all the trains stop at an island platform.
There is no access other than the stepped subway.

My own local station has no staff after 12.50 and the upline has no
access. the only way for a wheelchair user to get off the station is to
go several stations up the line then return.

Pathetic.

John B

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone
with a
wheel chair use a train.


And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.


I have a few times at Clapham Juncttion and occasionally on long distance
routes. But at the moment frankly a lot of stations are utterly inaccessible
for wheelchair users, leaving only a few combinations of routes viable.

So they may need help on some routes.

Earlier this year, I changed train at Castle Cary, a middle-of-nowhere
station that gets trains stopping because it's a junction. The main
line train stopped several minutes, longer than scheduled, while the
guard helped a wheelchair user on (a nontrivial job because the platform
is only accessible by footbridge). A _good_ reason for a modest delay,
and by the time I got off (Plymouth), it had made up the lost time.

Oh, and I've seen many wheelchair users on trains. One or two were
quite memorable people.

--
Nick Kew

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Peter Masson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 19 Jun 2005:

and the wheelchair passengers in a
4VEP had no access to a toilet.

Given how often they're locked out of use, or the condition they are in
when they are not, have things actually improved much?
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 May 2005

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Steven wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 19 Jun 2005:

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone
with a
wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.

I've seen one try - he was winched up the steps at Clapham Junction on a
most interesting machine designed for the purpose.

But alas, the train he was after was cancelled (my mother was hoping to
catch the same train), and the following one was only 4 coaches, not 8.
My mother got on, and was given a seat, but the poor wheelchair user was
left fuming on the platform (and he WAS furious, too!).
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 May 2005

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

(uk.rec.cycling removed)

Mrs Redboots wrote:
Steven wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 19 Jun 2005:


Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone
with a
wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.


I've seen one try - he was winched up the steps at Clapham Junction on a
most interesting machine designed for the purpose.

But alas, the train he was after was cancelled (my mother was hoping to
catch the same train), and the following one was only 4 coaches, not 8.
My mother got on, and was given a seat, but the poor wheelchair user was
left fuming on the platform (and he WAS furious, too!).

Aha I have seen that very same machine in use at Clapham Junction
myself, now you mention it! I stood on the footbridge at the top of the
stairs to 11/12 watching a wheelchair user being moved up, and was
absolutely petrified he was about to roll off backwards down the stairs,
considering the angle it was operating at. It worked though.

Related note: I often see a young female wheelchair user on my 455 to
work in the morning. She's very adept at "jumping" into the train while
in her lightweight chair, refusing all offers of help! I just wish I was
that fit myself... /lardarse

Cheers,

Steve M

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Brian wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:02:13 +0100, Colin McKenzie
wrote:


The bike and wheelchair space should, of course, be flexible, with
tip-up seats. It would be easy and cheap to provide more flexible
space, allowing more bikes to be carried when necessary, and more
bums on seats the rest of the time.

Oh, No! Tipup seats should be banned - I don't want to stand because
someone is sat on a seat AND blocking a seat with their bike. If
you've got a bike, get on it, sit on that and let me sit down!!!

Well, when I'm on a Turbostar with my bike, then I'm in the tipup seat next
to my bike.

Or more likely in a tipup seat in the vicinity of the flexible space with my
bike placed as unobtrusively as possible near the flexible space which is
being used by someone else, either because they have a buggy which is
justifiably using the space, or because they've reacted unpleasantly to my
polite "I'm sorry, but could I use that seat, I need to park my bike by
it.". I do try and ask firmly, but in a fashion that shows I understand that
it is somewhat unreasonable to ask someone to move.

Generally I do the same journey (once or twice a week, return) on Voyagers
nowadays. I don't buy a ticket/reservation for the bike because it's just
too much effort, and no one's ever shown any interest in seeing one. Also,
it saves me £3 a journey leg on a £12 return ticket, so it's worth the
saving, too.

--
Ambrose

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Steven wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:54 GMT,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving
in the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen
anyone with a wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.

Strangely enough, on the suburban line I use most frequently, where all
stations (but one) have easy ramp access (with the line generally running in
a cutting), I see wheelchair users fairly often. Say, 1 journey in 5. Also I
see them boarding at New Street not infrequently.

Of course, if it were possible for a wheelchair user to board a train
without the humiliating assistance of staff, like it is with buses, then
maybe it would be more common to see wheelchair users using trains.

--
Ambrose

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
Steven wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:54 GMT,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving
in the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen
anyone with a wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.

Strangely enough, on the suburban line I use most frequently, where all
stations (but one) have easy ramp access (with the line generally running in
a cutting), I see wheelchair users fairly often. Say, 1 journey in 5. Also I
see them boarding at New Street not infrequently.

Of course, if it were possible for a wheelchair user to board a train
without the humiliating assistance of staff, like it is with buses, then
maybe it would be more common to see wheelchair users using trains.

And if they didn't have to give 48 hours' notice (which I think they
still do down my way). I assume that for most people that means
calling in on Saturday to say "I'm going to work again on Monday".

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

In message , Dave Larrington
writes
When the old British Snail stopped charging for bikes on trains
twenty-something years ago, weekend trains out of London were suddenly
awash with cyclists heading out to the country...
Here we go again, "I want something for nothing, or I'll condemn the
operator".
--
Clive

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:41:34 +0000 (UTC), "Ambrose Nankivell"
wrote:

Of course, if it were possible for a wheelchair user to board a train
without the humiliating assistance of staff, like it is with buses, then
maybe it would be more common to see wheelchair users using trains.

Indeed. It is perhaps odd that effort has not gone into making
lower-floor rolling stock instead of what has happened, which is the
exact opposite, with stepped entrances even more common than ever.

OK, platforms are not of uniform height, but typically there is still
a step of over 6 inches.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Train-home ban for big bike ride
 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:41:34 +0000 (UTC), "Ambrose Nankivell"
wrote:

Steven wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:54 GMT,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving
in the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen
anyone with a wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.

Strangely enough, on the suburban line I use most frequently, where all
stations (but one) have easy ramp access (with the line generally running in
a cutting), I see wheelchair users fairly often. Say, 1 journey in 5. Also I
see them boarding at New Street not infrequently.

I've often wondered if the lack of wheelchair users on some lines is down to the
difficulties getting to the correct platform.

There are still stations with island platforms that require the use of steep
steps to use an underpass. I believe it's no longer allowed for staff to push a
wheelchair accross the tracks.