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Modern Railways mentions that the DLR are considering possible extensions to
Farringdon and/or Charing Cross. Both of these could be very interesting. No details are given, but I'm guessing that the Farringdon extension could run in tunnel to Moorgate, then take over Thameslink's branch to Farringdon. This will be closing in any case when Thameslink 2000 is built. The Charing Cross branch could run along the original planned Fleet/Jubilee line route via City Thameslink and Aldwych, and take over the abandoned Jubilee line tunnels and platforms at Charing Cross. I understand that provision was made for Jubilee line platforms when City Thameslink was built. Peter. |
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Peter Goodland wrote:
Modern Railways mentions that the DLR are considering possible extensions to Farringdon and/or Charing Cross. The Charing Cross branch could run along the original planned Fleet/Jubilee line route via City Thameslink and Aldwych, and take over the abandoned Jubilee line tunnels and platforms at Charing Cross. I understand that provision was made for Jubilee line platforms when City Thameslink was built. Not sure about that one - hadn't the Fleet Line been abandoned by the late 1980s? Would this route lead to the return of a service at Aldwych? If so could they add a subway to Temple? |
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The Charing Cross branch could run along the original planned
Fleet/Jubilee line route via City Thameslink and Aldwych, and take over the abandoned Jubilee line tunnels and platforms at Charing Cross. I understand that provision was made for Jubilee line platforms when City Thameslink was built. Not sure about that one - hadn't the Fleet Line been abandoned by the late 1980s? Would this route lead to the return of a service at Aldwych? If so could they add a subway to Temple? The idea of the Fleet/Jubilee line extension to the city was presumably abandoned some time before the current extension further south was built. IIRC, the original Fleet line plan was to include stations at Aldwych, Holborn Viaduct and Bank. I was speculating on whether this new plan would follow the same route, after all there are abandoned platforms at Charing Cross and some tunnel east of there towards Aldwych. There is also some protection of the route, and some construction at City Thameslink. Peter. |
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"Peter Goodland" petergoodland.at.hotmail.com wrote in message
... Modern Railways mentions that the DLR are considering possible extensions to Farringdon and/or Charing Cross. The Charing Cross branch could run along the original planned Fleet/Jubilee line route via City Thameslink and Aldwych, and take over the abandoned Jubilee line tunnels and platforms at Charing Cross. I don't think the present DLR stock will fit in the Jubilee tunnels from Aldwych to Charing Cross. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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In ,
John Rowland typed: "Peter Goodland" petergoodland.at.hotmail.com wrote in message ... Modern Railways mentions that the DLR are considering possible extensions to Farringdon and/or Charing Cross. The Charing Cross branch could run along the original planned Fleet/Jubilee line route via City Thameslink and Aldwych, and take over the abandoned Jubilee line tunnels and platforms at Charing Cross. I don't think the present DLR stock will fit in the Jubilee tunnels from Aldwych to Charing Cross. Jubilee tunnels from Aldwych to Charing Cross? Tell me more! -- Bob |
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Bob Wood wrote:
I don't think the present DLR stock will fit in the Jubilee tunnels from Aldwych to Charing Cross. Jubilee tunnels from Aldwych to Charing Cross? Tell me more! The original plan for the Jubilee Line was that after Charing Cross it would run to Aldwych (thus making that station a bit useful - tunnels along the Strand were built but never used) then along the course of the Fleet (hence the planned name "Fleet Line"), taking in Holborn Viaduct (now City Thameslink) and Fenchurch Street, then down to Surrey Docks (now Quays) and then over the mainline rail to Hayes (which would have brought the tube into that part of the world - I wonder how Fare's "Fair" would have gone down in such circumstances). However the project only got to Charing Cross and the remaining plans never materialised. |
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Sounds like a fanatastic idea.
Are they really thinking of doing it though? DLR seems to be extending every which way but west. A Charing Cross branch sounds good. But isnt it just as easy to go to Tower Gateway and jump on a circle/district. If there already tunnels there and some prework already commenced then maybe it possible. It would certainly be used by many as its a useful route to st pauls too for the tourists. A farringdon branch seems somewhat redundant when crossrail comes along (if it ever does) as you'll be able to connect into the DLR at WIQ and IOD crossrail. But right now would be a useful addition as its not that straightforward to get to Farringdon. (best route for me is DLR to Bank then a bus or walk even. I also guess that would also involve expensive tunnelling from Bank to Moorgate. Do DLR have that kinda money? The only other problem I see is that the DLR especially the Bank branch is heavily congested as it is. 3 car will help but i'm sure the additional capacity will be quickly used up. So running to farringdon or Charing cross will just add more and more people onto an already congested system. Well have those tourist taking it to St Pauls for instance. But worthwhile ideas for extenstions. If only to allow addtional connections into the tube network. (Bakerloo and Northern at Charring Cross and Thameslink Hammersmith and City at Farringdon) A. |
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Londoncityslicker wrote:
A Charing Cross branch sounds good. But isnt it just as easy to go to Tower Gateway and jump on a circle/district. True, but the three stations (Tower Hill, Tower Gateway and Fenchurch Street) are all spread out quite a bit and so are rather poor for interchanging. (Was there a reason why they didn't build DLR right up to the concourse at Fenchurch Street?) A farringdon branch seems somewhat redundant when crossrail comes along (if it ever does) as you'll be able to connect into the DLR at WIQ and IOD crossrail. But right now would be a useful addition as its not that straightforward to get to Farringdon. (best route for me is DLR to Bank then a bus or walk even. I also guess that would also involve expensive tunnelling from Bank to Moorgate. Do DLR have that kinda money? How close to Moorgate are the DLR platforms? And don't the end pointing to the north already? |
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Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: Londoncityslicker wrote: True, but the three stations (Tower Hill, Tower Gateway and Fenchurch Street) are all spread out quite a bit and so are rather poor for interchanging. (Was there a reason why they didn't build DLR right up to the concourse at Fenchurch Street?) I don't know the answer, but considering how close the stations are to each other, it's a shame that there's no 'proper' interchange without having to descend to street level... How close to Moorgate are the DLR platforms? And don't the end pointing to the north already? There's a single-track headshunt to the north-west (IIRC) of the Bank DLR platforms which extends quite a long way towards Moorgate (I suppose it's where the TBM ended up). But, as has been discussed before when deciding what to do with the Moorgate Thameslink branch, how are you going to get the trains up to sub-surface level between the end of the headshunt and the platforms at Moorgate? |
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Peter Goodland wrote:
Modern Railways mentions that the DLR are considering possible extensions to Farringdon and/or Charing Cross. Both of these could be very interesting. The Wharf mentioned a few weeks ago that they're currently got a shortlist of 10 possible DLR extensions that they're now whittling down to just 3 or 4. The one that they particular mentioned was Lewisham to Catford which they say scores quite favourably and they've got the support of Lewisham council for. Here's the original story: http://icthewharf.icnetwork.co.uk/th...name_page.html |
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On 24 Jun 2005 04:08:01 -0700, "Rupert Candy"
wrote: Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: How close to Moorgate are the DLR platforms? And don't the end pointing to the north already? There's a single-track headshunt to the north-west (IIRC) of the Bank DLR platforms which extends quite a long way towards Moorgate (I suppose it's where the TBM ended up). But, as has been discussed before when deciding what to do with the Moorgate Thameslink branch, how are you going to get the trains up to sub-surface level between the end of the headshunt and the platforms at Moorgate? You are assuming that there will be connections at Moorgate. If Crossrail is built I cannot see how on earth DLR could possibly construct any sort of station in the Moorgate area. Given how easy the Northern Line connection is at Bank from DLR I would not be at all surprised that DLR simply bypassed Moorgate as it climbs to the surface and that the DLR station at Farringdon would be double ended with Barbican Tube Station. If there is an extension to Charing Cross then I'd quite like to see a link that ran via St Pauls, City Thameslink / Blackfriars, Aldwych and Charing Cross. That would be a very useful link but it would be phenomenally expensive to construct and I think even 3 car DLR trains would struggle to cope with the potential flows of passengers if the bus services over this corridor were reduced (as is normal practice). It also raises the question about just how many East - West links London needs between the West End, the City and Docklands. You'd end up with the Central Line, Jubilee Line, Crossrail and DLR. Can 4 such high capacity services really be justified in today's climate of no government spending on rail or light transit investment? I appreciate the Mayor has a few billion at his disposal but Crossrail would eat all of that money and more. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On 24 Jun 2005 04:08:01 -0700, "Rupert Candy" wrote: Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: How close to Moorgate are the DLR platforms? And don't the end pointing to the north already? There's a single-track headshunt to the north-west (IIRC) of the Bank DLR platforms which extends quite a long way towards Moorgate (I suppose it's where the TBM ended up). But, as has been discussed before when deciding what to do with the Moorgate Thameslink branch, how are you going to get the trains up to sub-surface level between the end of the headshunt and the platforms at Moorgate? You are assuming that there will be connections at Moorgate. If Crossrail is built I cannot see how on earth DLR could possibly construct any sort of station in the Moorgate area. Given how easy the Northern Line connection is at Bank from DLR I would not be at all surprised that DLR simply bypassed Moorgate as it climbs to the surface and that the DLR station at Farringdon would be double ended with Barbican Tube Station. If there is an extension to Charing Cross then I'd quite like to see a link that ran via St Pauls, City Thameslink / Blackfriars, Aldwych and Charing Cross. That would be a very useful link but it would be phenomenally expensive to construct and I think even 3 car DLR trains would struggle to cope with the potential flows of passengers if the bus services over this corridor were reduced (as is normal practice). It also raises the question about just how many East - West links London needs between the West End, the City and Docklands. You'd end up with the Central Line, Jubilee Line, Crossrail and DLR. Can 4 such high capacity services really be justified in today's climate of no government spending on rail or light transit investment? I appreciate the Mayor has a few billion at his disposal but Crossrail would eat all of that money and more. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! I agree that a DLR station at Moorgate seems a bit too much, considering that it's an easy trip on the Northern from Bank and that Crossrail will connect it to the Isle of Dogs. However, as the route is on it's way to Farringdon then it may be useful simply to give more interchange to LU services. It is certainly a busy area in terms of rail services. But note that the crossrail station is actually a few hundred yards away from Moorgate station proper and is at Moorhouse. So maybe there is space to fit a DLR line through it. Or maybe Moorhouse will has infact have the space for a DLR line. Also the WAGN services which are peak only at the moment (I think). There is a possibility of them being wound down, in which case DLR could make use of these platforms. I'm not too sure of the logistics of that one though. The Charing Cross link looks the most interesting. As for cost. It's likely to be high. And i agree that even with 3 car. The line is likely to be stretched to capacity in the peak and maybe at other times. |
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"Bob Wood" wrote in message
... In , John Rowland typed: "Peter Goodland" petergoodland.at.hotmail.com wrote in message ... Modern Railways mentions that the DLR are considering possible extensions to Farringdon and/or Charing Cross. The Charing Cross branch could run along the original planned Fleet/Jubilee line route via City Thameslink and Aldwych, and take over the abandoned Jubilee line tunnels and platforms at Charing Cross. I don't think the present DLR stock will fit in the Jubilee tunnels from Aldwych to Charing Cross. Jubilee tunnels from Aldwych to Charing Cross? Tell me more! Phase 1 of the Jubilee Line (Baker St to Charing Cross) was constructed approximately as far as Aldwych. This is so that trains could pull into ChX at speed with minimal risk of hitting a dead end. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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In message , Stevie writes
The one that they particular mentioned was Lewisham to Catford which they say scores quite favourably and they've got the support of Lewisham council for. A fly in the ointment, is that it would allow Duhg access to London, so that he can harass all the motorists. -- Clive |
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In article , Peter
Goodland writes The idea of the Fleet/Jubilee line extension to the city was presumably abandoned some time before the current extension further south was built. IIRC, the original Fleet line plan was to include stations at Aldwych, Holborn Viaduct and Bank. Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Cannon Street, Fenchurch Street, St.Katherine's Dock, Wapping, then via ELL and BR lines to Lewisham. I was speculating on whether this new plan would follow the same route, after all there are abandoned platforms at Charing Cross and some tunnel east of there towards Aldwych. DLR trains are almost certainly too big to fit. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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In article , Tim Roll-Pickering
writes then along the course of the Fleet Actually it would be at right angles to the Fleet! The Fleet actually tracks, pretty closely, the Thameslink line from Kentish Town to Blackfriars. Holborn Viaduct (the road) is a viaduct *over the Fleet valley*. (hence the planned name "Fleet Line"), Actually that was from Fleet Street. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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In article ,
londoncityslicker writes Also the WAGN services which are peak only at the moment (I think). The WAGN services at Moorgate run Monday to Friday from about 0600 to 2200. Do you mean the Thameslink services? There is a possibility of them being wound down, in which case DLR could make use of these platforms. I'm not too sure of the logistics of that one though. Getting up from the depths at Bank to the subsurface platforms at Moorgate, while at the same time turning through a large angle and without hitting any of the other tunnels down there, seems somewhat impractical. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article , londoncityslicker writes Also the WAGN services [...] There is a possibility of them being wound down, in which case DLR could make use of these platforms. I'm not too sure of the logistics of that one though. Getting up from the depths at Bank to the subsurface platforms at Moorgate, while at the same time turning through a large angle and without hitting any of the other tunnels down there, seems somewhat impractical. Just how deep is the DLR at Bank? ISTR that the DLR is capable of climbing relatively steep gradients - steeper than the 1:30 that's the rule-of-thumb limit on heavy rail. It's almost 600 metres from Bank to Moorgate, and more along the looping route that a tunnel would have to take - even at 1:30, that would allow 20 metres of climbing. Is that not enough? I suspect it's the loopiness that would be the real challenge: to get from the north-north-west direction at Bank to the west-north-west direction at Moorgate would involve a rather tight S-bend, with a radius of curvature as little as 100 metres. And as for doing that without hitting tunnels or foundations ... Is there anything the Midland City stub could be used for, after it's severed from Thameslink? Would it be possible to use it to handle Metropolitan trains to Moorgate? Would there be any point? tom -- It's almost over now. |
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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article , Peter Goodland writes there are abandoned platforms at Charing Cross and some tunnel east of there towards Aldwych. DLR trains are almost certainly too big to fit. I'm confused. Are DLR trains bigger than tube trains? tom -- It's almost over now. |
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Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Clive D. W. Feather wrote: In article , Peter Goodland writes there are abandoned platforms at Charing Cross and some tunnel east of there towards Aldwych. DLR trains are almost certainly too big to fit. I'm confused. Are DLR trains bigger than tube trains? Yes. In particular, DLR stock is about half a metre taller than tube stock. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Richard J. wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Clive D. W. Feather wrote: In article , Peter Goodland writes there are abandoned platforms at Charing Cross and some tunnel east of there towards Aldwych. DLR trains are almost certainly too big to fit. I'm confused. Are DLR trains bigger than tube trains? Yes. In particular, DLR stock is about half a metre taller than tube stock. Okay, didn't realise that. I suppose i think of DLR stock as wee little midget trains. Thinking about it, though, given that tunnels weren't really part of the original plan, there was no reason to make them any shorter than the mainline trains whose alignments they inherited! tom -- Oh no - I've just turned my arse into a hand grenade! |
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Tom Anderson wrote: Just how deep is the DLR at Bank? According to this http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/company/facts.asp , 41.4 metres, and they ought to know. ISTR that the DLR is capable of climbing relatively steep gradients - steeper than the 1:30 that's the rule-of-thumb limit on heavy rail. It's almost 600 metres from Bank to Moorgate, and more along the looping route that a tunnel would have to take - even at 1:30, that would allow 20 metres of climbing. Is that not enough? I think you'd need to make the DLR a rack railway to get up the gradient that would be required! The tracks really are a long way down at Bank. |
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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: Just how deep is the DLR at Bank? According to this http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/company/facts.asp , 41.4 metres, and they ought to know. Cripes! That *is* deep. Aren't most tubes around the 20 metre mark? I suppose there's already the Central and Northern lines at Bank, so the DLR had to tuck in under those. ISTR that the DLR is capable of climbing relatively steep gradients - steeper than the 1:30 that's the rule-of-thumb limit on heavy rail. It's almost 600 metres from Bank to Moorgate, and more along the looping route that a tunnel would have to take - even at 1:30, that would allow 20 metres of climbing. Is that not enough? I think you'd need to make the DLR a rack railway to get up the gradient that would be required! The tracks really are a long way down at Bank. Indeed - since there's about 40 metres of climb rather than 20, it would have to be more like 1:15. I'm not sure the world is yet ready for the Docklands Light Funicular ... tom -- I know you wanna try and get away, but it's the hardest thing you'll ever know |
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Tom Anderson wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 30 Jun 2005:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 wrote: I think you'd need to make the DLR a rack railway to get up the gradient that would be required! The tracks really are a long way down at Bank. Indeed - since there's about 40 metres of climb rather than 20, it would have to be more like 1:15. I'm not sure the world is yet ready for the Docklands Light Funicular ... What is its gradient as it comes to the surface now? -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 May 2005 |
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Bow Road District line is 1:28, IIRC?
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In terms of a westbound extension though should consider going to
Waterloo and taking part off the Waterloo and City. A new station could be provided in between at Blackfriars, improving links further with Thameslink and Waterloo. Although a large proportion of the line would have to be in new tunnel, it would slot in nicely to the existing platforms at Waterloo. In terms of capacity it would provide a great deal extra as a three car DLR train could provide as much capacity as Waterloo and City train and provide a higher frequency. Maybe longer term the line could then be projected to Victoria with stops at Lambeth Bridge on the southside and Horseferry Road(an area with poor transport). From Victoria the line could then go to Hyde Park Corner, Park Lane with a new Mayfair stop, Marble Arch and on to Paddington it could then surface where the Hammersmith and City line platforms are and continue to Hammersmith. Very blue sky thinking but then again I bet the cost would be half of what Crossrail is projected to be and create many new links in the process. Very wishful thinking but food for thought and the links would be very well used. Martin Mark Etherington wrote: Stevie wrote: Peter Goodland wrote: Modern Railways mentions that the DLR are considering possible extensions to Farringdon and/or Charing Cross. Both of these could be very interesting. The Wharf mentioned a few weeks ago that they're currently got a shortlist of 10 possible DLR extensions that they're now whittling down to just 3 or 4. The one that they particular mentioned was Lewisham to Catford which they say scores quite favourably and they've got the support of Lewisham council for. Any idea what the route might be? They wouldn't take over the South Eastern Trains service via Ladywell, would they? -- Mark Etherington |
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