Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

by Matt Eley, 24 June 2005



A MULTI-MILLION pound development that would have changed the face of Camden
Town has been thrown out by the Deputy Prime Minister.

London Underground chiefs are reeling after their ambitious £130million
plans for the tube station were thrown out.

The scheme would have seen a seven-storey glass office block, houses and
shops rising above Camden Town.

The plan was originally rejected by Camden Council and now John Prescott has
agreed that, although the Northern Line station needs an upgrade, the block
would have ruined the area.

The decision means that landmark buildings that had been earmarked for
demolition, including the Electric Ballroom, Buck Street Market and Trinity
United Reformed Church, are safe, for the immediate future.

Kate Fuller, Electric Ballroom owner, said: "I had no idea what the outcome
was going to be so it came as a complete and utter surprise.

"Hopefully they realised the importance of the Electric Ballroom as a famous
venue and maybe now they will leave us alone. It is a big weight off our
shoulders so we will have a party to celebrate."

A report from the office of the Deputy Prime Minister published this week
states: "The Secretary of State concludes that the proposed above ground
development at an important location would not preserve or enhance the
character and appearance of the conservation area and would have a
detrimental impact on the vitality and viability of Camden Town centre."

Brian Coleman, Camden and Barnet member of the London Assembly, slammed the
decision.

He said: "It's an absolute betrayal by the government of users of the
Northern Line.

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the users
of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

rest of story SNIPPED

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

snip

So what are the chances that South Kentish Town (Castle Road) will be
reopened?

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent on
rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent on
rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.

But surely there's only a limited number of routes for which Camden
Road would be a viable alternative?

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Alan (in Brussels) wrote:

A MULTI-MILLION pound development that would have changed the face of
Camden Town has been thrown out by the Deputy Prime Minister.

The plan was originally rejected by Camden Council and now John Prescott
has agreed that, although the Northern Line station needs an upgrade,
the block would have ruined the area.

Hmm. How exactly you could make Camden any more horrible than it already
is is a bit of a mystery to me. Or would making it a bit smarter ruin it?
That said, the change of use embodied in the plans was awful, so i guess
i'm with Big John on this one.

The ideal plan would be to preserve the buildings, improve the station,
then murder every goth, drug dealer, tourist, tat merchant and other
variety of idiot in a five-mile radius. Now that's what i call urban
renewal!

Brian Coleman, Camden and Barnet member of the London Assembly, slammed
the decision.

He said: "It's an absolute betrayal by the government of users of the
Northern Line.

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the
users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Good to see society's intellectually challenged are being given good homes
in the London Assembly. Does he think LU are just going to give up on
Camden? Surely all they have to do is tone the plans down so they don't
completely destroy the town centre, and they'll be accepted.

tom

--
.... but when you spin it it looks like a dancing foetus!

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...

"the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent
on rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the
North London Line every day for about a century.

Do explain. Just how does the NLL help people currently using the Northern
line get to where they want to go? Forty thousand trains to Stratford
doesn't someone wanting to get to Waterloo much good.

Now, if you could wangle some sort of North London Decline out of that
money, so you could take trains off the NLL and into King's Cross, or onto
the Thameslink route, i might agree, but if you're just talking about more
trains to Stratford, then sorry, but what?

tom

--
.... but when you spin it it looks like a dancing foetus!

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:43:59 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Alan (in Brussels) wrote:
Brian Coleman, Camden and Barnet member of the London Assembly, slammed
the decision.

He said: "It's an absolute betrayal by the government of users of the
Northern Line.

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the
users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Good to see society's intellectually challenged are being given good homes
in the London Assembly. Does he think LU are just going to give up on
Camden? Surely all they have to do is tone the plans down so they don't
completely destroy the town centre, and they'll be accepted.

But the plans can't be "toned down" too much or else you'll build
something that is not big enough and which will not comply with today's
safety and capacity requirements. While not fully familiar with the
desired level of capacity for the site the only other options are to dig
a new station that is largely underground thus reducing the surface
property issues. The issue with that is that it will (probably) cost so
much that there is no business case for proceeding. I think it is that
paradox that Mr Coleman might be referring to.

Camden Town station cannot cope properly with the demands made of it -
however it cannot be expanded at any price because there would be an
outcry from taxpayers about LU being profligate with public funds. I'd
call it a catch 22 - which seem to be a speciality of Mr Prescott's
department. First Thameslink and now this. What's he going to stop next
- the ELLX or Crossrail?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On 24 Jun 2005 01:38:09 -0700, "TheOneKEA"
wrote:

snip

So what are the chances that South Kentish Town (Castle Road) will be
reopened?

Minimal.


SKT is a fair walk from Camden Tn and has only 50% of the service.

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:13:14 +0100, Robert Woolley
wrote:

On 24 Jun 2005 01:38:09 -0700, "TheOneKEA"
wrote:

snip

So what are the chances that South Kentish Town (Castle Road) will be
reopened?

Minimal.


SKT is a fair walk from Camden Tn

Not so much of an issue for those who live closer to SKT than to
Camden Town (which is who the reopening would be aimed at, thus taking
pressure off Camden Town)

and has only 50% of the service.

Still pretty good if you take the first train and change at CT if
necessary. Since it would take you less time to walk to the station,
that would more than compensate for a slightly longer wait.

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:43:59 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Alan (in Brussels) wrote:
Brian Coleman, Camden and Barnet member of the London Assembly, slammed
the decision.

He said: "It's an absolute betrayal by the government of users of the
Northern Line.

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the
users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Good to see society's intellectually challenged are being given good homes
in the London Assembly. Does he think LU are just going to give up on
Camden? Surely all they have to do is tone the plans down so they don't
completely destroy the town centre, and they'll be accepted.

But the plans can't be "toned down" too much or else you'll build
something that is not big enough and which will not comply with today's
safety and capacity requirements. While not fully familiar with the
desired level of capacity for the site the only other options are to dig
a new station that is largely underground thus reducing the surface
property issues. The issue with that is that it will (probably) cost so
much that there is no business case for proceeding. I think it is that
paradox that Mr Coleman might be referring to.

How about rebuilding the station above ground, demolishing what's there,
but replacing it with new buildings with the same or similar use? Markets,
venues, public spaces, not shops and flats or whatever. I think that would
address most of the objection.

Or is it that LU can only afford to rebuild if they can recoup some of the
costs through making money off property?

tom

--
Why do we do it? - Exactly!

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...

"the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to
get more people to switch to Camden Road. I roughly
calculated that the money to be spent on rebuilding
Camden Town station would fund a decent service
on the North London Line every day for about a century.

Do explain. Just how does the NLL help people currently
using the Northern line get to where they want to go?

By removing from the Northern Line station all the people who want to go to
Wood Green, Seven Sisters, Wembley, etc, and who would use the North London
Line if only it were not so infrequent and lacking in quality interchanges.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is
to get more people to switch to Camden Road. I roughly
calculated that the money to be spent on rebuilding Camden
Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.

But surely there's only a limited number of routes
for which Camden Road would be a viable alternative?

Yes, but you don't have to remove all the people from Camden Town. A 25%
reduction at the weekend might make the station workable for 20 years or so,
and who knows how unfashonable Camden might be by then.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...

"the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people
to switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be
spent on rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on
the North London Line every day for about a century.

Do explain. Just how does the NLL help people currently using the
Northern line get to where they want to go?

By removing from the Northern Line station all the people who want to go
to Wood Green, Seven Sisters, Wembley, etc, and who would use the North
London Line if only it were not so infrequent and lacking in quality
interchanges.

Ah, i see. That does make quite a lot of sense. Sorry i ever doubted you!

Hang on, though: if the station was actually busy, where would the dealers
sell their smack? You have to think about the knock-on effects!

tom

--
hip whizzo teddy bear egghead realpolitik tiddly-om-pom-pom sacred cow
gene blues celeb cheerio civvy street U-boat tailspin ceasefire ad-lib
demob pop wizard hem-line lumpenproletariat avant garde kitsch sudden
death Big Apple sex drive-in Mickey Mouse bagel dumb down pesticide racism
spliff dunk cheeseburger Blitzkrieg Molotov cocktail snafu buzz ****ed off
DNA mobile phone megabucks Wonderbra cool Big Brother brainwashing fast
food Generation X hippy non-U boogie sexy psychedelic beatnik cruise
missile cyborg awesome bossa nova peacenik byte miniskirt acid love-in
It-girl microchip hypermarket green Watergate F-word punk detox Trekkie
naff all trainers karaoke power dressing toy-boy hip-hop beatbox
double-click OK yah mobile virtual reality gangsta latte applet
hot-desking URL have it large Botox kitten heels ghetto fabulous
dot-commer text message google bling bling 9/11 axis of evil sex up chav

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:59:32 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
th.li...
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, John Rowland wrote:

"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...

"the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to
get more people to switch to Camden Road. I roughly
calculated that the money to be spent on rebuilding
Camden Town station would fund a decent service
on the North London Line every day for about a century.

Do explain. Just how does the NLL help people currently
using the Northern line get to where they want to go?

By removing from the Northern Line station all the people who want to go to
Wood Green, Seven Sisters, Wembley, etc, and who would use the North London
Line if only it were not so infrequent and lacking in quality interchanges.

True to a certain degree, but I think you'd need to do some serious
market research to find out how many people would potentially switch,
and whether it would be worthwhile. Given the zoning issues, I would
expect that a lot of people are already doing soi to avoid Zone 1.
For example, I'm nearest to Bounds Green, and flatmate who works in
Camden always uses the NLL already, so she doesn't have to pay for a
Z1 TC. Likewise, even though I have a Z1-3 TC for work, I'll often
use the NLL to get to Kew Gardens when I'm at the National Archives,
rather than the more crowded Picc/District.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:43:59 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Alan (in Brussels) wrote:
Brian Coleman, Camden and Barnet member of the London Assembly, slammed
the decision.

He said: "It's an absolute betrayal by the government of users of the
Northern Line.

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the
users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Good to see society's intellectually challenged are being given good homes
in the London Assembly. Does he think LU are just going to give up on
Camden? Surely all they have to do is tone the plans down so they don't
completely destroy the town centre, and they'll be accepted.

But the plans can't be "toned down" too much or else you'll build
something that is not big enough and which will not comply with today's
safety and capacity requirements. While not fully familiar with the
desired level of capacity for the site the only other options are to dig
a new station that is largely underground thus reducing the surface
property issues. The issue with that is that it will (probably) cost so
much that there is no business case for proceeding. I think it is that
paradox that Mr Coleman might be referring to.

How about rebuilding the station above ground, demolishing what's there,
but replacing it with new buildings with the same or similar use? Markets,
venues, public spaces, not shops and flats or whatever. I think that would
address most of the objection.

Or is it that LU can only afford to rebuild if they can recoup some of the
costs through making money off property?

Buildings of a similar size would presumably have similar congestion
problems. Sorting out the congestion involves spreading out some of
the entrances and other facilities - therefore more total space needed.
And the cost is so high that the only way it is affordable is through
property development above and around the station site.

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent on
rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town
redevelopment would be paid for by the property developer. I don't see
a similar opportunity for the new trains and/or signalling needed to do
what you suggest.

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, "umpston" wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent on
rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town
redevelopment would be paid for by the property developer. I don't see
a similar opportunity for the new trains and/or signalling needed to do
what you suggest.

Err, I don't think he was suggesting that someone pay for a century's
worth of decent service up front.

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

What is really needed on the Northern Line is a division in to 2
separate lines: one from Edgware to Kennington via Charing Cross, the
other from High Barnet to Morden via Bank. That would put an end to the
endless signalling problems at Camden Town and Kennington, but
unfortunately a reconstructed Camden Town is vital to allow for the
large numbers of passengers changing there.


- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

asdf wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, "umpston" wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent on
rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the North
London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town
redevelopment would be paid for by the property developer. I don't see
a similar opportunity for the new trains and/or signalling needed to do
what you suggest.

Err, I don't think he was suggesting that someone pay for a century's
worth of decent service up front.

Well somebody does have to pay up front, or nothing will ever be built
or improved. I doubt much of an improvement in NLL services can be
made without a major investment in trains and signalling systems
(without even considering station facilities). All this would have to
be paid up front, whether funded privately or publicly.

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, umpston wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the
users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent
on rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the
North London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town redevelopment
would be paid for by the property developer.

This is the problem though. When does property development stop. e.g we
could sell off Hyde park and pay for crossrail etc.

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

steve wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, umpston wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station, now the
users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more people to
switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money to be spent
on rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent service on the
North London Line every day for about a century.


But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town redevelopment
would be paid for by the property developer.

This is the problem though. When does property development stop. e.g we
could sell off Hyde park and pay for crossrail etc.

Well, in the case of Camden Town, it has been stopped.

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

"umpston" wrote in message
ups.com...
asdf wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, "umpston" wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more
people to switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money
to be spent on rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent
service on the North London Line every day for about a century.

But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town
redevelopment would be paid for by the property developer. I don't see
a similar opportunity for the new trains and/or signalling needed to do
what you suggest.

Err, I don't think he was suggesting that someone pay for a century's
worth of decent service up front.

Well somebody does have to pay up front, or nothing will ever be built
or improved. I doubt much of an improvement in NLL services can be
made without a major investment in trains and signalling systems
(without even considering station facilities). All this would have to
be paid up front, whether funded privately or publicly.

I didn't make myself clear, but my calculation concerned the funding
required to provide the current peak service all day, 7 days a week, not an
increase on the current peak service. I don't think any infrastructure would
be needed, just more drivers.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

John Rowland wrote:
"umpston" wrote in message
ups.com...
asdf wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 03:15:49 -0700, "umpston" wrote:

John Rowland wrote:
"Alan (in Brussels)" wrote in message
...
Press report forwarded FYI by:

- Alan (in Brussels)

"Campaigners' joy as station plan is axed

www.hamhigh.co.uk

"This is the end of the project. We needed that new station,
now the users of the Northern Line face decades of misery."

Rubbish. The solution to Camden Town's problems is to get more
people to switch to Camden Road. I roughly calculated that the money
to be spent on rebuilding Camden Town station would fund a decent
service on the North London Line every day for about a century.

But how would you raise the money to do it? The Camden Town
redevelopment would be paid for by the property developer. I don't see
a similar opportunity for the new trains and/or signalling needed to do
what you suggest.

Err, I don't think he was suggesting that someone pay for a century's
worth of decent service up front.

Well somebody does have to pay up front, or nothing will ever be built
or improved. I doubt much of an improvement in NLL services can be
made without a major investment in trains and signalling systems
(without even considering station facilities). All this would have to
be paid up front, whether funded privately or publicly.

I didn't make myself clear, but my calculation concerned the funding
required to provide the current peak service all day, 7 days a week, not an
increase on the current peak service. I don't think any infrastructure would
be needed, just more drivers.


Maybe you're right but wouldn't it also need more trains, allowing for
those which need to be taken out of service for maintenance in the
off-peak period, plus the increased wear and tear on everything?

Camden station redevelopment rejected
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

Well somebody does have to pay up front, or nothing will ever be built
or improved. I doubt much of an improvement in NLL services can be
made without a major investment in trains and signalling systems
(without even considering station facilities). All this would have to
be paid up front, whether funded privately or publicly.

I didn't make myself clear, but my calculation concerned the funding
required to provide the current peak service all day, 7 days a week, not
an
increase on the current peak service. I don't think any infrastructure
would
be needed, just more drivers.

More drivers wouldn't solve the problem of what to do with all the freight
trains that there is no longer room for.

Peter Smyth