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Graeme Wall wrote:
In message .com
"MIG" wrote:

[snip]

And of course the 1991 Iraq war, when the US told Saudi Arabia that
Iraqi troops were massing on their border to get US bases in there,

You mean the Iraquis hadn't invaded Kuwait?

and after which the US deliberately kept Sadam Hussein in power rather than
help the opposition.


"No UN mandate for regime change" The US did what people like you wanted,
got out of Iraq as soon as the UN requirements were fulfilled, which was to
eject the Iraquis from Kuwait.


There was a local rebellion against the regime. They thought the
invading troops would help. They didn't; they shafted them instead.

That wasn't regime change imposed from outside. Unfortunately, that
sort of regime change wouldn't have given Iraq's resources to US and
British companies.

We are straying a bit anyway. Shouldn't this topic be about what kind
of trains they have in Iraq?

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In message cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-C27MKJWQnhWC@localhost
"Ian Johnston" wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:35:41 UTC, Graeme Wall
wrote:

: The people currently doing the killing in Iraq are nuslims killing other
: muslims, a bit like the situation in Northern Ireland.

Or like the resistance shooting collaborators?


No

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

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What general policy is that?

The people currently doing the killing in Iraq are nuslims killing other
muslims, a bit like the situation in Northern Ireland.


Your political views are clearly different from mine. However, pretty
much everything predicted over the last few years by those whose views
are similar to mine is coming true.

I don't think the people in Northern Ireland would see it the same way.
One group felt that they were resisting the invading Catholic hordes,
and the other group felt that they were resisting the invading British
Empire. They certainly didn't see themselves as all being the same and
they definitely saw outside influence as a cause of their disputes.

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In message .com
"MIG" wrote:



Graeme Wall wrote:
In message .com
"MIG" wrote:

[snip]

And of course the 1991 Iraq war, when the US told Saudi Arabia that
Iraqi troops were massing on their border to get US bases in there,

You mean the Iraquis hadn't invaded Kuwait?

and after which the US deliberately kept Sadam Hussein in power rather than
help the opposition.


"No UN mandate for regime change" The US did what people like you
wanted, got out of Iraq as soon as the UN requirements were fulfilled,
which was to eject the Iraquis from Kuwait.


There was a local rebellion against the regime. They thought the
invading troops would help.

Try getting your chronology right, the 'invading troops' had been withdrawn
before the uprising

They didn't; they shafted them instead.

When did the Americans ever do anything else?


That wasn't regime change imposed from outside. Unfortunately, that
sort of regime change wouldn't have given Iraq's resources to US and
British companies.

The rebellion wasn't about regime change but secession from Iraq. The UN
refused to allow support by third countries, not that the US were interested.
The reason Dubya ignored the UN this time was partly because his perceived
view that the UN had deliberatley thwarted his Dad's plans for an
all-American world.


We are straying a bit anyway. Shouldn't this topic be about what kind
of trains they have in Iraq?


Stanier 8Fs I believe.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

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In message .com
"MIG" wrote:

What general policy is that?

The people currently doing the killing in Iraq are nuslims killing other
muslims, a bit like the situation in Northern Ireland.


Your political views are clearly different from mine.

Are they?

However, pretty much everything predicted over the last few years by those
whose views are similar to mine is coming true.

Given your apparent ignorance of the true state of affairs in the real world,
how can you tell?


I don't think the people in Northern Ireland would see it the same way.
One group felt that they were resisting the invading Catholic hordes,
and the other group felt that they were resisting the invading British
Empire.

So you don't even understand the basics of that dispute?

They certainly didn't see themselves as all being the same and they
definitely saw outside influence as a cause of their disputes.


Did I say they saw themselves as all the same? Presumably you are totally
unable to see a parallel between the conflicts of two subsects of
Christianity and two subsects of Islam?

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

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On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:28:43 UTC, Graeme Wall
wrote:

: In message cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-C27MKJWQnhWC@localhost
: "Ian Johnston" wrote:
:
: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:35:41 UTC, Graeme Wall
: wrote:
:
: : The people currently doing the killing in Iraq are nuslims killing other
: : muslims, a bit like the situation in Northern Ireland.
:
: Or like the resistance shooting collaborators?

: No

How do you think they see themselves, then?

Ian

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On 22 Jul 2005 12:08:14 GMT, Ian Johnston wrote in
cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-Njxhc0urG6Qh@localhost, seen in uk.railway:
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:42:03 UTC, Ross
wrote:

: Without extremists, there is no terrorism.

Isn't that because /we/ define terrorists as extremists? The
terrorists themselves may think that what they are doing is quite
reasonable.

Yes. After all, it's the difference between terrorists and freedom
fighters - it depends on which side you're looking at it from.

I think we *can* class the terrorists (and I'm not just talking about
Al Qaeda) as extremists because they are outside the mainstream of
their own espoused system, they have to distort ("interpret") the
teachings of the system they espouse to justify their actions and
their actions do harm (physical, political or other) to their own
people more than to their enemy.


It would be so much easier if they went around in capes
and black masks carrying spherical bombs with long fizzing fuses...

And wearing name badges showing the organisation to which they
belonged:-

[Al-Qaeda]
[Hi! I'm name]
[Let me help you to paradise]

Sorry, that's probably a bit sick.

--
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

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Can you be sure it was the police?


Given that the BBC says it was, probably not, no.

The BBC is of course not perfect.

But would you prefer to get so-called "news" and "information" from
Rupert Murdoch and his minions?

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In message cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-YXUQyXn7rHWv@localhost
"Ian Johnston" wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:28:43 UTC, Graeme Wall
wrote:

: In message cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-C27MKJWQnhWC@localhost
: "Ian Johnston" wrote:
:
: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:35:41 UTC, Graeme Wall
: wrote:
:
: : The people currently doing the killing in Iraq are muslims killing
: : other muslims, a bit like the situation in Northern Ireland.

Or like the resistance shooting collaborators?

: No

How do you think they see themselves, then?


"My version of whatever religion is the only true religion and anyone
professing to be a true whatever who doesn't agree with me is a worthless
heretic who must be eliminated for the greater good"

Other religions don't count as they are by definition not religions at all.
Means you can carry on fighting amongst yourselves to your hearts content.
An extension of gang warfare. Applies to Catholics-Protestants in NI,
Sunnis-Shi'ites in the Arab world, Arabs-Jews in the Middle East. Al
Quaeda's objective is to widen it to Islam-Christianity. The common factor
is that all the various sects involved are rooted in the Old Testament with
its emphasis on intolerance and its championing of a 'chosen people'.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

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In message
Ross wrote:

[snip]

And wearing name badges showing the organisation to which they
belonged:-

[Al-Qaeda]
[Hi! I'm name]
[Let me help you to paradise]

Sorry, that's probably a bit sick.


Very sick, I like it.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html