Northern Line suspended
 

From the BBC site at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4335994.stm :

"Services on the Northern Line ... have been suspended and may remain
closed on Thursday. Union bosses called for trains to be withdrawn on
Wednesday, after one ran through a red light at Mill Hill East, and its
emergency brakes failed. [I think this means the driver was instructed
to pass a red signal with the usual precautions, but the tripcock reset
itslef without stopping the train.]

It was the fifth incident on the line, and dozens of drivers are
refusing to work on safety grounds. Commuters trying to get home on
Wednesday struggled to get onto overcrowded buses, after the gates
closed at Northern Line stations.

Last Friday almost half the line's fleet did not run as a result of
brake safety checks and an extra driver being put on each train."

I would have thought that in light of this latest incident,
double-manning would have been reinstated. But it sounds as if LU
expected its drivers to continue driving single-manned trains, and many
drivers refused. Anyone know what's really happening? At the moment,
all the LU site is saying is that the line has no trains "due to
signalling system problems".

BBC1 London news this evening showed pictures of the rope that is
supposed to be at the heart of the problem. It looked like the rope that
used to be the manual tripcock resetting device on older tube stock. Is
that still its use? Seems a bit primitive for 1995 stock.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern Line suspended
 

Richard J. wrote:
BBC1 London news this evening showed pictures of the rope that is
supposed to be at the heart of the problem. It looked like the rope that
used to be the manual tripcock resetting device on older tube stock. Is
that still its use? Seems a bit primitive for 1995 stock.


Indeed the 95 and 96 stocks still use the rope reset, as do the D
stocks. The C stocks have a push-button reset. Not sure about the
others.

It's no problem simply pulling on the rope to reset the tripcock.
After all, it's (hopefully) not that often that it should need to be
used!

I've never seen the news due to working, but I'm not sure how the rope
could be the problem. This is only used for resetting the tripcock.
As I understand it, the tripcock wasn't activating when hit by the
trainstop which is the problem? Obviously I am happy to be corrected -
as I say, I'm always working when the local news is on!

Northern Line suspended
 

In message .com,
writes

Indeed the 95 and 96 stocks still use the rope reset, as do the D
stocks. The C stocks have a push-button reset. Not sure about the
others.

It's no problem simply pulling on the rope to reset the tripcock.
After all, it's (hopefully) not that often that it should need to be
used!

I've never seen the news due to working, but I'm not sure how the rope
could be the problem.

According to the report, the ropes have been replaced with ones that are
several millimetres too thick. I presume they are therefore getting
stuck, making it very difficult to reset the tripcock.

--
Paul Terry

Northern Line suspended
 

In article , Paul Terry
writes
In message .com,
writes

Indeed the 95 and 96 stocks still use the rope reset, as do the D
stocks. The C stocks have a push-button reset. Not sure about the
others.

It's no problem simply pulling on the rope to reset the tripcock.
After all, it's (hopefully) not that often that it should need to be
used!

I've never seen the news due to working, but I'm not sure how the rope
could be the problem.

According to the report, the ropes have been replaced with ones that are
several millimetres too thick. I presume they are therefore getting
stuck, making it very difficult to reset the tripcock.

Or perhaps the rope is too thick and doesn't move when the tripcock is
hit and so the tripcock is prevented from working?
--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

Northern Line suspended
 

"John" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul Terry
writes
In message .com,
writes

According to the report, the ropes have been replaced with ones that are
several millimetres too thick. I presume they are therefore getting
stuck, making it very difficult to reset the tripcock.

Or perhaps the rope is too thick and doesn't move when the tripcock is
hit and so the tripcock is prevented from working?

Just heard on BBC London this morning that service is still suspended.

:-(
--
Brian

Northern Line suspended
 

In message , Brian Watson
writes

Just heard on BBC London this morning that service is still suspended.

:-(

According to TfL this is now due to signalling problems affecting the
entire Northern line. :(

--
Paul Terry

Northern Line suspended
 

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Brian Watson
writes

Just heard on BBC London this morning that service is still
suspended.

:-(

According to TfL this is now due to signalling problems affecting
the entire Northern line. :(

LU have been blaming the tripcock problem on the "signalling system"
from the start.

Another question: what, if any, differences are there between the
tripcock systems on the 1995 (Northern) and 1996 (Jubilee) trains, which
are generally of similar design from the same manufacturer?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern Line suspended
 

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:34:12 +0100, Paul Terry
wrote:

In message , Brian Watson
writes

Just heard on BBC London this morning that service is still suspended.

:-(

According to TfL this is now due to signalling problems affecting the
entire Northern line. :(

And no doubt some media will continue to say that there's "a signal
failure".

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

Northern Line suspended
 

Richard J. wrote:
Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Brian Watson
writes


Just heard on BBC London this morning that service is still
suspended.

:-(

According to TfL this is now due to signalling problems affecting
the entire Northern line. :(


LU have been blaming the tripcock problem on the "signalling system"
from the start.

You seem to be implying this is in accurate. I would say that the
tripcock system is part of the signalling system just as much as any set
of lights, cables or signalboxes (or whatever LU call them). Just
because this part of the system is train and not track mounted, doesn't
make it any less part of the signalling system.

Robin

Northern Line suspended
 

wrote:

I've never seen the news due to working, but I'm not sure how the rope
could be the problem. This is only used for resetting the tripcock.
As I understand it, the tripcock wasn't activating when hit by the
trainstop which is the problem?

I have heard that the problem is that trains *are* being tripped, but are
then immediately resetting themselves without any manual intervention. The
thickness of the reset rope could well influence this. Just rumour, though,
at present.



MetroGnome

Northern Line suspended
 

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:47:54 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Brian Watson
writes

Just heard on BBC London this morning that service is still
suspended.

:-(

According to TfL this is now due to signalling problems affecting
the entire Northern line. :(

LU have been blaming the tripcock problem on the "signalling system"
from the start.

Another question: what, if any, differences are there between the
tripcock systems on the 1995 (Northern) and 1996 (Jubilee) trains, which
are generally of similar design from the same manufacturer?


I think it has to do with the company that maintain the Northern Line
stock, who are different from Jubilee Line stock maintainers.

Life without sex just isn't life.
Make love not war!

Northern Line suspended
 

Just rumour, though,
at present.


Oooh, we all love a bit of rumour;-)

Northern Line suspended
 

Excuse my ignorance, but why in the 21st Century are saftey-critical
devices on one of the most heavily-used urban metro systems in the
World reliant on a bit of string?

Neill

Northern Line suspended
 

On 13 Oct 2005 06:16:55 -0700, "Neillw001"
wrote:

Excuse my ignorance, but why in the 21st Century are saftey-critical
devices on one of the most heavily-used urban metro systems in the
World reliant on a bit of string?

What would you prefer? A switch, a relay, an actuator and a bit of
wire? Why be complicated if a simple mechanism works?

Northern Line suspended
 

In article , Laurence Payne wrote:

Excuse my ignorance, but why in the 21st Century are saftey-critical
devices on one of the most heavily-used urban metro systems in the
World reliant on a bit of string?

What would you prefer? A switch, a relay, an actuator and a bit of
wire?

Right now? Yes.

Brian
--
* * * * ** * * ** ** * *
* ** * * ** * * * *
* * * * * *

Northern Line suspended
 

R.C. Payne wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Brian Watson
writes


Just heard on BBC London this morning that service is still
suspended.

:-(

According to TfL this is now due to signalling problems affecting
the entire Northern line. :(


LU have been blaming the tripcock problem on the "signalling
system" from the start.

You seem to be implying this is in accurate.

Primarily I was correcting the misleading impression given by the word
"now".

I would say that the tripcock system is part of the signalling
system just as much as any set of lights, cables or signalboxes
(or whatever LU call them). Just because this part of the system
is train and not track mounted, doesn't make it any less part of
the signalling system.

I can almost agree with that. However, LU are now saying that the
suspension is in force "while work to modify safety equipment on
Northern line trains is carried out", which is much clearer.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern Line suspended
 

Neillw001 wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why in the 21st Century are saftey-critical
devices on one of the most heavily-used urban metro systems in the
World reliant on a bit of string?

If there was indeed a "bit of string" instead of a great thick rope, we
probably wouldn't have the current problem. We'd just have bits of
string breaking occasionally when drivers tried to reset the tripcock,
but that wouldn't affect safety.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern Line suspended
 

It's not a piece of string, it's quite a substantial piece of rope, which
adds to the resetting difficulty. The trains were originally part of a super
line upgrade so the tripcock reset cord was installed as a temporary measure
until ATP/ATO was introduced.
The cord itself goes through several tight bends from the loop that the
driver pulls in the offside cabinet down to the trip itself. The bends and
cord thickness have been a problem since we first tested train set 1 on the
test track at Washwood Heath.

Whilst conducting the conversion training for the drivers we used to tell
them to stick their J Door Key through the loop to get better leverage and
failing that, get out of the cab and attempt a reset pulling where the cord
is visible (about 6 inches from the trip).


"Neillw001" wrote in message
oups.com...
Excuse my ignorance, but why in the 21st Century are saftey-critical
devices on one of the most heavily-used urban metro systems in the
World reliant on a bit of string?

Neill

Northern Line suspended
 

"Christine" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:47:54 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Brian Watson
writes

Just heard on BBC London this morning that service is still
suspended.

:-(

According to TfL this is now due to signalling problems affecting
the entire Northern line. :(

LU have been blaming the tripcock problem on the "signalling system"
from the start.

Another question: what, if any, differences are there between the
tripcock systems on the 1995 (Northern) and 1996 (Jubilee) trains, which
are generally of similar design from the same manufacturer?


I think it has to do with the company that maintain the Northern Line
stock, who are different from Jubilee Line stock maintainers.

Life without sex just isn't life.
Make love not war!
They are both maintained by (Tubelines) Alstrom. The diffrence is that ILRC
is the Northen line was a Alstrom design and build and the Jubliee line was
a LU design and Alstrom build. Therefore despite them only being a year
diffrent in age 95 Nor 96 Jub there are signifcant diffrences.

Northern Line suspended
 

In article ,
(Bob Rodden) wrote:

It's not a piece of string, it's quite a substantial piece of rope,
which adds to the resetting difficulty. The trains were originally
part of a super line upgrade so the tripcock reset cord was installed
as a temporary measure until ATP/ATO was introduced.

The cord itself goes through several tight bends from the loop that the
driver pulls in the offside cabinet down to the trip itself. The bends
and cord thickness have been a problem since we first tested train set
1 on the test track at Washwood Heath.

That would explain the old-fashioned trip cock technology but not the
complexity of the rope arrangement. Ropes have been routed outside in
the past in modification programmes.

Whilst conducting the conversion training for the drivers we used to
tell them to stick their J Door Key through the loop to get better
leverage and failing that, get out of the cab and attempt a reset
pulling where the cord is visible (about 6 inches from the trip).

But why is the contemporary 96TS not subject to the same problems? It's
actually older as the 95TS came into service after the 96.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Northern Line suspended
 

What would you prefer? A switch, a relay, an actuator and a bit of
wire? Why be complicated if a simple mechanism works?

You could say the same about the rest of the train control
systems. Camshafts worked , so why bother using solid state
electronics? Why bother having in cab video when the driver
is quite capable of sticking his head out the window and looking down
the platform (tho obviously this would mean
him getting off his arse for a non tea/toilet related event so its
probably banned by union rules).

B2003

Northern Line suspended
 

On 13 Oct 2005 14:26:55 -0700, "Boltar"
wrote:

You could say the same about the rest of the train control
systems. Camshafts worked , so why bother using solid state
electronics? Why bother having in cab video when the driver
is quite capable of sticking his head out the window and looking down
the platform (tho obviously this would mean
him getting off his arse for a non tea/toilet related event so its
probably banned by union rules).

This is exactly how Hamburg U-Bahn trains were dispatched from some
stations in the evenings, when the platforms were not manned and
stations weren't all fitted with the in-cab video transmission
equipment.

There was even a removable microphone for the driver to shout the
characteristic "Zurueckbleiben bitte" with his head out!

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Northern Line suspended
 

With all this media fuss and the unions doing their usual
phoney heroic sacrifice-for-the-good-of-the-public bull****
routine , no one seems to have made the mental link that
lots of tripcock failures in service = lots of drivers going
through red lights. If they hadn't then this problem wouldn't
have been noticed. Perhaps someone should be asking why
these overpaid knuckle draggers are having so many SPADs
on this 1 line.

B2003

Northern Line suspended
 

Boltar wrote:
With all this media fuss and the unions doing their usual
phoney heroic sacrifice-for-the-good-of-the-public bull****
routine , no one seems to have made the mental link that
lots of tripcock failures in service = lots of drivers going
through red lights.

Non-sequitur.
You've already raised this is a separate thread - see my reply.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Northern Line suspended
 

Neillw001 wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why in the 21st Century are saftey-critical
devices on one of the most heavily-used urban metro systems in the
World reliant on a bit of string?

Maybe you are the kind of person who would fit a complex, unknown system
to a train saying `Its the latest hi-tech system`, it is what you need,
string is so 18th century?

If a piece of string works, then what is the problem?


You could put in electronics, a button, introduce a software controlled
system and a processor.

The simple fact is that the mechanical properties of a piece of string
have been understood for centuries.

(although, according to another thread, this still means people are
silly enough to buy the wrong sized string :) )

Tim

Northern Line suspended
 

"Tim Bray" wrote in message
.. .
Neillw001 wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but why in the 21st Century are saftey-critical
devices on one of the most heavily-used urban metro systems in the
World reliant on a bit of string?

Maybe you are the kind of person who would fit a complex, unknown system
to a train saying `Its the latest hi-tech system`, it is what you need,
string is so 18th century?

If a piece of string works, then what is the problem?

Isn't the reason that the trains aren't running because the bit of string
DOESN'T work?

--
Brian

Northern Line suspended
 

You've already raised this is a separate thread - see my repl

That message was supposed to have been cancelled. Oh well.

B2003

Northern Line suspended
 

Boltar wrote in uk.transport.london on 14 Oct 2005 12:01:32 -0700
ups.com:

You've already raised this is a separate thread - see my repl

That message was supposed to have been cancelled. Oh well.

I think, instead of cancelling it, you inadvertently repeated the same
comment in: .com:

Besides which , just how hard is it to spot a red light?

Which is, as you'd have seen if you didn't treat Usenet as a
write-only medium, not the point at issue.

--
hike
- a walking tour or outing, esp. of the self-conscious kind
Chambers 20th Century Dictionary