London Banter - Grand Trunk Railway

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Grand Trunk Railway

I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

Thanks,

Phil

Grand Trunk Railway

Phil Clark wrote:
I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

There was a North American railroad called the "Grand Trunk Railway"
(not all railway companies in North America call/called themselves
"Railroads").

Adam

Grand Trunk Railway

In message , Phil Clark
writes
I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

I'm pretty sure it refers to the Canadian company of that name and that
its position there is linked in some way with the proximity of Canada
House, the former Canadian High Commission.

(The company ran the original Toronto - Montreal line before Canada
became a Dominion as such when Ontario and Quebec were the provinces of
Upper and Lower Canada respectively. It was an important factor in
joining the two very different provinces.)

Apologies if the building refers to another Grand Trunk Railway and I'm
on the wrong track [1] altogether. Someone here will know.

[1] I *really* didn't mean that pun. Honestly.

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Grand Trunk Railway

There was a North American railroad called the "Grand Trunk Railway"
(not all railway companies in North America call/called themselves
"Railroads").

Adam

And they still don't. Of the largest U.S. companies, the class I's, I
believe that BNSF, Norfolk Southern, and KCS use the word Railway in their
titles. The two Canadian class I's use the word Railway. Union Pacific
Pacific is the only U.S class I company to use the word Railroad in its
title. The other U.S. class I is CSX and it uses the word Transportation
in its full title.

Dave Wilcox.

Grand Trunk Railway

Ian Jelf wrote:

Phil Clark writes:

I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on
Warwick House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and
opposite the Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk
Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

I'm pretty sure it refers to the Canadian company of that name and
that its position there is linked in some way with the proximity of
Canada House, the former Canadian High Commission.

(The company ran the original Toronto - Montreal line before Canada
became a Dominion as such when Ontario and Quebec were the provinces
of Upper and Lower Canada respectively. It was an important factor
in joining the two very different provinces.)

The railway was primarily supported by British financiers. It was one
of the first constructed in North America, starting in Portland, Maine,
USA, and was then routed through Montreal and Toronto to Chicago. They
had plans to build into Western Canada around the south of the Great
Lakes, but the Canadian government didn't like the idea of serving the
western part of the Dominion through the USA. The Canadian Pacific,
which was also British financed, won the right to build around the north
of the lakes.

The Grand Trunk eventually went bankrupt, and became part of the
government-owned Canadian National in 1919, and the name disappeared,
except for the US portion of the railroad, which retained the name Grand
Trunk Western. CN's European operations were run out of 17 Cockspur
Street until very recently. I suspect the real estate was simply too
valuable to stay.

One other notable piece of trivia is that the President of the Grand
Trunk at the time went down on the Titanic, following a visit to England
for a meeting with the owners.

Grand Trunk Railway

Colin Rosenstiel writes:
Wasn't it an LNWR precursor?

Colin is perhaps thinking of the Grand Junction Railway, which ran from
Birmingham to Warrington or thereabouts.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "We don't use clubs; they weren't invented here.
| We use rocks." -- David Keldsen

Grand Trunk Railway

Ian Jelf:
(The company ran the original Toronto - Montreal line before Canada
became a Dominion as such when Ontario and Quebec were the provinces
of Upper and Lower Canada respectively. It was an important factor
in joining the two very different provinces.)

Canadian history nitpick: Upper and Lower Canada were already history
when the Grand Trunk was started in the 1850s. In 1841 they had been
united under a single colonial government as the Province of Canada.
Denying a separate government to the largely French-descended population
of Lower Canada, then called Canada East, was an attempt to force their
assimilation into British culture; it ended in 1867 when the dominion
of Canada was created and the old boundary becaue the Ontario/Quebec
provincial border.

James Robinson:
The railway was primarily supported by British financiers. It was
one of the first constructed in North America, starting in Portland,
Maine, USA, and was then routed through Montreal and Toronto to Chicago.

And thus it was a notable example of a company that put its business
interests ahead of national ones. Which in turn meant that Canadian
governments weren't too fond of them. And so:

... the Canadian government didn't like the idea of serving the
western part of the Dominion through the USA. The Canadian Pacific,
which was also British financed, won the right to build around the
north of the lakes.

The Conservative government of the day first awarded the contract
to build the line to a syndicate whose intentions proved to be
fraudulent. After the syndicate was caught making a political
payoff, the government fell and the Liberals got in. They tried
building the railway as a government project, which they in turn
proceeded to botch. When the Conservatives were reelected, they
reprivatized the line and this time put it in the hands of the right
people, whose successors are the CPR company that still exists.

The CPR got its financing wherever it could, Canadian and American
money as well as British; I don't remember the proportions. Canada's
then largest bank, the Bank of Montreal, was into the railway to
such an extent that if the company had gone bankrupt during con-
struction, as was feared several times, the bank would probably
have failed as well.

The Grand Trunk eventually went bankrupt, and became part of
the government-owned Canadian National in 1919,

Not formally part of CN until a bit later, but in practice yes.

During WW1 the Canadian government encouraged the building of more
railways. In the end *two* more transcontinental lines were built.
In western Canada one was built by the GTR while the other was an
extension of the existing routes of a regional railway called the
Canadian Northern. I believe it was because the two companies
were too pigheaded to consider cooperating that they ended up
building routes that ran practically side by side for some 1,000
miles out of Winnipeg, as far as Jasper in the Rocky Mountains.

The result was that both companies went bankrupt just after the
war, and were united as the Canadian National Railways. The CNR,
or in later years CN for short, operated as a government agency
for many decades, before eventually being privatized (and along
the way, losing the S in Railways). In an echo of the old GTR's
internationalism, a few years ago they bought the former Illinois
Central Gulf Railroad, giving CN access to the Gulf of Mexico as
well as Canadian ports on the Atlantic and the Pacific. (Their line
to Hudson Bay, however, has been sold off to a separate comany.)
--
Mark Brader | "...most people who borrow over $1,000,000 from a bank
Toronto | would at least remember the name of the bank."
| -- Judge Donald Bowman, Tax Court of Canada

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Grand Trunk Railway

Thanks, Guys - more information than I expected, but you're right in
that the Canadian High Commission is just over the road.

Phil

Grand Trunk Railway

In article ,
Phil Clark wrote:
I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

2nd leg of the west coast route, linking (IIRC) the London and Birmingham
with the Lancaster and Carlisle. Merged into the London and North Western
in the 1840s.

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

Grand Trunk Railway

Andrew Robert Breen wrote:
Phil Clark wrote:
I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

2nd leg of the west coast route, linking (IIRC) the London and Birmingham
with the Lancaster and Carlisle. Merged into the London and North Western
in the 1840s.

It was the Grand Junction Railway that ran north from Birmingham.
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632798.html
("Toffee apple" 31 008 at Colchester, 20 Apr 1980)

Grand Trunk Railway

In article ,
Chris Tolley wrote:
Andrew Robert Breen wrote:
Phil Clark wrote:
I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

2nd leg of the west coast route, linking (IIRC) the London and Birmingham
with the Lancaster and Carlisle. Merged into the London and North Western
in the 1840s.

It was the Grand Junction Railway that ran north from Birmingham.

Drat. You're right.

I think there /was/ a Grand Trunk Railway mooted for UK, but IIRC it
was one of the first or second mania schemes.

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

Grand Trunk Railway

In message , Mark Brader
writes
Ian Jelf:
(The company ran the original Toronto - Montreal line before Canada
became a Dominion as such when Ontario and Quebec were the provinces
of Upper and Lower Canada respectively. It was an important factor
in joining the two very different provinces.)

Canadian history nitpick: Upper and Lower Canada were already history
when the Grand Trunk was started in the 1850s.
My apologies, Mark. It *was* late when I wrote it and it's a *long*
time since I had to write essays about the parti bleu and parti rouge
and so on!

Sorry if I sounded like an uninformed Imperialist! ;-))
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Grand Trunk Railway

Phil Clark wrote:
I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

Thanks,

Phil

Amazing! I was only in that same spot last week (waiting for a grand
old lady on the 159 route) thinking exactly the same thing. It is is
an impressive position, very high up on the building. Looks like it is
made of solid marble and that it will be there until the building gets
demolished.

Grand Trunk Railway

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:46:48 GMT, Phil Clark
wrote:

I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

Thanks,

Phil

As others have noted, a Canadian railway (mostly). Chairman for a
while was Edward Watkin of Great Central fame. He seems to have
rescued GTR from collapse at one stage, but not permanently.
I believe it originally used a non-standard gauge, one broader than
usual, but how broad I do not know.
Watkin being his usual self got involved in other major events such as
the purchase of the Hudson Bay Company by the British Government, and
an attempt to run a telegraph line across Canada which did succeed but
was beaten to the post by a US route.
All this was around 1863 when he was still General Manager of the
Manchester Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway (later GCR).
Am I an historian, I hear you ask? No, but I have had to do a lot of
research whilst building up a talk with slides on how the railway came
to Gerrards Cross where the station celebrates its centenary next
year.

Guy Gorton

Grand Trunk Railway

Guy Gorton writes:
I believe [the Grand Trunk] originally used a non-standard gauge,
one broader than usual, but how broad I do not know.

It was 5'6" (1.676 m), but at the time that was the local standard
gauge. It was called the "provincial gauge" and applied in the
Province of Canada -- today's southern Ontario and southern Quebec.
North American railways did not converge on the 4'8½" (1.435 m)
standard gauge until after the Civil War in the US. From a quick
look, I think http://www.vwl.uni-muenchen.de/ls_komlos/northam.pdf
would be a good source if you want to read about this process in
detail.

According to other Internet sources, the law requiring provincial
gauge was repealed in 1870 and the GTR converted in 1873.
--
Mark Brader | A standard is established on sure bases, not capriciously
Toronto | but with the surety of something intentional and of a logic
| controlled by analysis and experiment. ... A standard is
| necessary for order in human effort. -- Le Corbusier

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Grand Trunk Railway

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Guy Gorton wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:46:48 GMT, Phil Clark
wrote:

I noticed the other day that on the gable end of a building on Warwick
House Street, by the junction with Cockspur Street (and opposite the
Two Chairmen pub) there are the word "Grand Trunk Railway".

Does anyone know what this was, and was it a London railway, or was
this the London office of a national or regional company?

As others have noted, a Canadian railway (mostly). Chairman for a while
was Edward Watkin of Great Central fame. He seems to have rescued GTR
from collapse at one stage, but not permanently. I believe it originally
used a non-standard gauge, one broader than usual, but how broad I do
not know. Watkin being his usual self got involved in other major events
such as the purchase of the Hudson Bay Company by the British
Government, and an attempt to run a telegraph line across Canada which
did succeed but was beaten to the post by a US route. All this was
around 1863 when he was still General Manager of the Manchester
Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway (later GCR).

Am I an historian, I hear you ask? No, but I have had to do a lot of
research whilst building up a talk with slides on how the railway came
to Gerrards Cross where the station celebrates its centenary next year.

Hang on - it came *via Canada*?

:)

tom

--
When I see a man on a bicycle I have hope for the human race. --
H. G. Wells