Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Following from the Tower Bridge thread, can anybody explain to me the
logic that "unsigned roads are subject to a 30mph limit" ?

I sort of remember this from when I took my driving test some 20+
years ago but thought it was stupid (and ambiguous). However, I keep
reading reports of people have been prosecuted for allegedly going too
fast where no speed limit was posted.

How can this be ? As far as I am concerned, whenever I see a speed
limit sign facing me, that speed limit is in force until I see another
one (lower or higher than it), right ?
(Obviously, some signs get vandalised and obscured)

but what on earth constitutes an "unsigned road" ? How far does one
have to travel on a road without seeing a sign, before declaring it
"unsigned" ? I seem to remember that this "default 30mph limit" only
applies (a) in urban areas, (b) where the street lamps are 185m
apart.

If I see a 50mph sign, travel for several km at say 47mph, and
an urban area (discuss definition) shows up, does that mean I have
to slow to 30mph. How do I know when I can speed up again ?

This seems a very poor definition.

Is it something like the NSL marker where, (for an ordinary car)
wherein the speed limit automatically changes 60/70 as the road becomes
single/dual carriageway ?

Richard [in PE12]

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

Following from the Tower Bridge thread, can anybody explain to me the
logic that "unsigned roads are subject to a 30mph limit" ?

I sort of remember this from when I took my driving test some 20+
years ago but thought it was stupid (and ambiguous). However, I keep
reading reports of people have been prosecuted for allegedly going too
fast where no speed limit was posted.

How can this be ? As far as I am concerned, whenever I see a speed
limit sign facing me, that speed limit is in force until I see another
one (lower or higher than it), right ?
(Obviously, some signs get vandalised and obscured)

but what on earth constitutes an "unsigned road" ? How far does one
have to travel on a road without seeing a sign, before declaring it
"unsigned" ? I seem to remember that this "default 30mph limit" only
applies (a) in urban areas, (b) where the street lamps are 185m
apart.

If I see a 50mph sign, travel for several km at say 47mph, and
an urban area (discuss definition) shows up, does that mean I have
to slow to 30mph. How do I know when I can speed up again ?

This seems a very poor definition.

Is it something like the NSL marker where, (for an ordinary car)
wherein the speed limit automatically changes 60/70 as the road becomes
single/dual carriageway ?

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and
unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show
otherwise)"

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters every so
often. If they aren't there, then the default applies, regardless of the
last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights, NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if
there aren't. Motorways are default 70, streetlights or not.

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Adrian wrote in
70:

Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying :

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class
C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless
signs show otherwise)"

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters
every so often. If they aren't there, then the default applies,
regardless of the last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights,
NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if there aren't. Motorways are default 70,
streetlights or not.

The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Martin Underwood wrote:
Adrian wrote in
70:

Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying :

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class
C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless
signs show otherwise)"

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters
every so often. If they aren't there, then the default applies,
regardless of the last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights,
NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if there aren't. Motorways are default 70,
streetlights or not.

The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

If you are a on a road of that kind with a speed limit other than 30mph
there will be repeater signs at intervals (can't be bothered to look up
the guidance on the interval distance). If the speed limt on that road
then changes to 30mph there will be '30' signs at the point of change.

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:29:12 -0000, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

Adrian wrote in
. 170:

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class
C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless
signs show otherwise)"

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters
every so often. If they aren't there, then the default applies,
regardless of the last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights,
NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if there aren't. Motorways are default 70,
streetlights or not.

The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

I thought that the street lights had to be closer together than 200
yards for it to be a de jure 30 limit. No street lights and you need
repeater 30 signs. No speed limit, or one above 30 and you need
repeater signs on the lamp posts.

Our County Council wouldn't move the 30 limit markers on one road, but
instead put a 40 limit to the end of the street lights, complete with
repeaters. The Parish Council have just improved our lane's street
lights, and extended them past the 30 limit, but haven't wired the
extra ones up yet. I'm waiting to see if they move the signs this
time.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Terry Harper wrote in
:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:29:12 -0000, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

I thought that the street lights had to be closer together than 200
yards for it to be a de jure 30 limit. No street lights and you need
repeater 30 signs. No speed limit, or one above 30 and you need
repeater signs on the lamp posts.

Gosh - is as far apart as 200 yards? I nearly said 50 yards: I'm glad I
didn't now. 200 yards is two "diagonal bar" signs on a motorway junction
countdown which is a hell of a long way - at 30 mph it would take you nearly
15 seconds. I'm sure most street lights in built-up areas pass much more
frequently than this. At 200 yards apart, there'd be a lot of dark space
between the pool of light from each street lamp. I presume the spacing is a
maximum of 200 yards apart *on the same side of the road* and that typically
street lights are interspersed on opposite sides of the road so in reality
there are lights (on one side of the road or the other) every 100 yards.

I'll check my HC tomorrow - and pace out the spacing of the street lights on
my road when I go to post a letter.

What are the rules about the visibility of speed limit signs? Even in
November, with few leaves on the trees, there are several signs which you
can only see when you get very close: too close really to slow down safely
from 60 to 30 in the remaining distance, even though you can see the road
much further ahead. I wish all speed limit reduction signs, especially going
from 60 to 40 or 30, were preceded by 300, 200, 100 yard countdown markers
to help judge the point at which you need to reach the lower speed. Even on
roads that I drive every day, where I think "I know there's a 30 limit
coming up soon" it's difficult to locate the exact point without either
overshooting it or slowing down unnecessarily early. I remember seeing the
3,2,1 countdown idea (either as signs or as white lines across the road)
proposed in the AA Magazine "Drive" many years ago. It's a shame no-one
picked the idea up and made it law.

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message . 170, at
21:19:04 on Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Adrian remarked:
Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

Following from the Tower Bridge thread, can anybody explain to me the
logic that "unsigned roads are subject to a 30mph limit" ?

I sort of remember this from when I took my driving test some 20+
years ago but thought it was stupid (and ambiguous). However, I keep
reading reports of people have been prosecuted for allegedly going too
fast where no speed limit was posted.

How can this be ? As far as I am concerned, whenever I see a speed
limit sign facing me, that speed limit is in force until I see another
one (lower or higher than it), right ?
(Obviously, some signs get vandalised and obscured)

but what on earth constitutes an "unsigned road" ? How far does one
have to travel on a road without seeing a sign, before declaring it
"unsigned" ? I seem to remember that this "default 30mph limit" only
applies (a) in urban areas, (b) where the street lamps are 185m
apart.

If I see a 50mph sign, travel for several km at say 47mph, and
an urban area (discuss definition) shows up, does that mean I have
to slow to 30mph. How do I know when I can speed up again ?

This seems a very poor definition.

Is it something like the NSL marker where, (for an ordinary car)
wherein the speed limit automatically changes 60/70 as the road becomes
single/dual carriageway ?

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and
unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show
otherwise)"

Although you need to be careful as to what constitutes "Street
lighting". Having a few lights along the edge of the street may or may
not be "street lighting". It depends how far they are apart, and how
long a stretch of road is illuminated.

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters every so
often. If they aren't there, then the default applies, regardless of the
last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights, NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if
there aren't. Motorways are default 70, streetlights or not.

There are many places on roads where NSL applies, and upon which you can
encounter isolated junctions with street lighting (it often happens
where an unlit bypass has a junction with the "old" road through a
village). But they rarely trigger an automatic 30mph limit for that
short stretch of the road.

--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message .com, at
14:07:31 on Sun, 27 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

If you are a on a road of that kind with a speed limit other than 30mph
there will be repeater signs at intervals (can't be bothered to look up
the guidance on the interval distance).

Not if the interval at which you repeaters have to be installed is less
than the length of lit road!

One of the things I've always wondered about is how these various
"lengths" are defined. For example, if a road has such a length of
lighting up to a lit roundabout over a more major road, and then another
short stretch of lit road the other side. Is that three sections of road
each of which has to meet the limits, or just one?

And when one such approach section suddenly gets "40" repeaters, does
that mean they've upped the limit from 30 to 40, or reduced it from 50
to 40?

--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message , at
00:42:59 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Martin Underwood remarked:

I presume the spacing is a maximum of 200 yards apart

The rules (which have rotted off the dtlr site according to the urlI
used to have) are almost certainly couched in metres. An up to date cite
for the exact numbers would be useful.

*on the same side of the road* and that typically
street lights are interspersed on opposite sides of the road so in reality
there are lights (on one side of the road or the other) every 100 yards.

That's a very good question. Similarly for lights on the verge
interspersed between the verge and a central reservation.

I'll check my HC tomorrow - and pace out the spacing of the street lights on
my road when I go to post a letter.

What are the rules about the visibility of speed limit signs? Even in
November, with few leaves on the trees, there are several signs which you
can only see when you get very close:

On the approach to the village I used to live in, the 30 sign was
entirely inside the (overgrown) hedge. There wasn't one the other side
of the road.
--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In article ,
Martin Underwood writes
I remember seeing the
3,2,1 countdown idea (either as signs or as white lines across the road)
proposed in the AA Magazine "Drive" many years ago. It's a shame no-one
picked the idea up and made it law.

There are countdown signs on the approaches to some villages near where
I live: the usual diagonal stripes with a speed limit sign above, except
that the red ring is grey (presumably to stop it being a speed limit
sign).

I don't think they're necessary in most places, but they should be
provided where there are sighting issues.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
14:07:31 on Sun, 27 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

If you are a on a road of that kind with a speed limit other than 30mph
there will be repeater signs at intervals (can't be bothered to look up
the guidance on the interval distance).

Not if the interval at which you repeaters have to be installed is less
than the length of lit road!


One of the things I've always wondered about is how these various
"lengths" are defined. For example, if a road has such a length of
lighting up to a lit roundabout over a more major road, and then another
short stretch of lit road the other side. Is that three sections of road
each of which has to meet the limits, or just one?


There should be full size signs (not repeaters) at the point the
speed-limit changes.
Speed limits other than the national speed limit or the urban 30mph
require a Traffic Order which will include a definition (in words
and/or on a map) of the affected length of road. Therefore the
'street-lighting rule' does not apply if a traffic order is in place
including that length of road. The order is invalid if the signs were
never there or if the authority has not made a reasonable effort to
maintain them.

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message . com, at
07:12:41 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
14:07:31 on Sun, 27 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at
least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some
distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

If you are a on a road of that kind with a speed limit other than 30mph
there will be repeater signs at intervals (can't be bothered to look up
the guidance on the interval distance).

Not if the interval at which you repeaters have to be installed is less
than the length of lit road!

One of the things I've always wondered about is how these various
"lengths" are defined. For example, if a road has such a length of
lighting up to a lit roundabout over a more major road, and then another
short stretch of lit road the other side. Is that three sections of road
each of which has to meet the limits, or just one?

There should be full size signs (not repeaters) at the point the
speed-limit changes.

That is not the way people normally describe the "30 mph limit where
there are street lights". If it needs a sign, as well as the existence
of street lights, why do people continually refer to a rule which says
that all you need is street lights?

Speed limits other than the national speed limit or the urban 30mph
require a Traffic Order which will include a definition (in words
and/or on a map) of the affected length of road.

I think the bit of road I'm describing is one that might (or might not)
come under the "urban" definition. If the definition is all about street
lights, and there's part of the definition which says, in effect, you
need more than (say) 500m of street lights before the "urban" definition
is triggered: What happens when a road has 400m of street lights, a lit
roundabout (say 100m), then another 400m of street lights? Is that three
roads of 400m, 100m, 400m, none of which is "urban"; or is it one road
of 900m all of which is then "urban"? [I will ignore the fact that this
is all in open countryside.]

ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?
--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Roland Perry wrote:

That is not the way people normally describe the "30 mph limit where
there are street lights". If it needs a sign, as well as the existence
of street lights, why do people continually refer to a rule which says
that all you need is street lights?


Because if starting your journey in an urban area (or in the middle of
nowhere for that matter) you may drive a long way without the speed
limit changing. If there are periodic repeater signs, then it is
obvious what the speed limit is. If there are none then it must either
be the national speed limit or the urban 30mph and you must make your
own judgement by taking note of your surroundings.

Speed limits other than the national speed limit or the urban 30mph
require a Traffic Order which will include a definition (in words
and/or on a map) of the affected length of road.

I think the bit of road I'm describing is one that might (or might not)
come under the "urban" definition. If the definition is all about street
lights, and there's part of the definition which says, in effect, you
need more than (say) 500m of street lights before the "urban" definition
is triggered: What happens when a road has 400m of street lights, a lit
roundabout (say 100m), then another 400m of street lights? Is that three
roads of 400m, 100m, 400m, none of which is "urban"; or is it one road
of 900m all of which is then "urban"? [I will ignore the fact that this
is all in open countryside.]

If you have not passed any speed-limit signs then I reckon the national
speed limit applies throughout. However you would, of course, be
reckless to drive at 60mph through the roundabout and could therefore
be guilty of another offence if you tried.


ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?
--

I think the other person who said it is 200 yards (or the metric
equivalant) is correct.

However, the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 can be found on the HMSO
website.
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions are somewhere on the
Department for Transport site.
The relevant chapter (Regulatory Signs) of the Traffic Signs Manual is
unfortunately not yet on line.

All the above are lengthy, complex and full of legal and technical
jargon. However, a good article, quoting from them all, can be found
on the Association of British Drivers website at:
http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

ABD believe a greater use of 30mph repeater signs should be used in
places where, although there may be street lamps, it is not so obvious
that the urban speed limit applies. I agree with that although I also
believe 30mph repeaters in every residential road/shopping street etc
would be an unnecessary waste.

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:25:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote in :

ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?



"You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your
vehicle (see the table below). Street lights usually mean that there is
a 30 mph speed limit unless there are signs showing another limit.
Law RTRA sects 81,86,89 & sch 6"

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103


"Part VI of the RTRA 1984 deals specifically with speed limits, with
Sections 81-84 dealing with different speed limits and the speed limit
order making process. Section 81 of the RTRA 1984 specifically makes it an
offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than
30mph on a Restricted Road (i.e. on an urban street lit road)."

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...032880-06.hcsp


section 81

section 81: General speed limit for restricted roads. (1) A motor vehicle
can not be driven at a speed exceeding 30 miles per hour on a restricted
road. (2) The speed fixed by subsection (1) can be altered by the
Ministers acting jointly and making an order by statutory instrument and
approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.

http://www.wales-legislation.org.uk/...?id=587&lang=E


For your information: Section 81(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
states:
The speed limit on a restricted road is 30mph. A restricted road is a road:
On which there is provided a system of street lights not more than 200 yards
apart (unless the traffic authority have directed otherwise) speed restriction
signs are not required, or
Which has been directed to be so by the traffic authority speed restriction
signs are required.

http://www.sussexsafetycameras.gov.u...ts%2008-03.pdf


Earl Attlee: Further to the Minister's response to the noble Earl, Lord Mar
and Kellie, on what constitutes a "restricted road", perhaps I might have the
temerity to refer her to Section 82 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act.
It says that,

"a road is a restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of this Act if
there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of
lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart".

There is nothing about such roads being in an urban area. That is extremely
important for rural areas and villages because a village road with street
lamps is automatically a restricted road and therefore subject to a 30 mph
speed limit.

http://www.pacts.org.uk/parliament/R...sard-4July.pdf


18. Section 81 of the 1984 Act makes it an offence for a person to drive a
motor vehicle on a restricted road at a speed of more than 30 mph. Section
82(1) of that Act defines a restricted road as one on which there is a
system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than
200 yards apart. A road which is a restricted road for the purposes of
Section 82(1) can by means of a direction issued under Section 82(2) by
the Traffic Authority cease to be a restricted road for the purposes of
Section 82(1).

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ads_505174.pdf


HMSO doesn't appear to carry electronic versions of Acts from 1984.

--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:25:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote in :

ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?


- long, long snip



HMSO doesn't appear to carry electronic versions of Acts from 1984.


Yes, my error - sorry to mislead anybody.

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message , at 17:50:32 on
Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Dr Ivan D. Reid remarked:
ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document where
things like the "500m" above are defined?

"You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your
vehicle (see the table below). Street lights usually mean that there is
a 30 mph speed limit unless there are signs showing another limit.

The ABD page: http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm provided
elsewhere in this thread has the distances to which I refer. It's quite
complex, and also mentions the "200 yds" distance which makes a street
officially "lit".

Assuming that it's not almost entirely written with cul-de-sacs in mind,
I assume that when they refer to (eg) "Lit road more than 600m in length
on which the national speed limit applies" that what they really mean is
"Road with more than 600m of it lit ..."

So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where the
limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required. [1].

Which brings me back to my original question: If there is a lit
roundabout (say 100m across) with 500m of lighting on each of two of the
approach roads, is that 1.1km of lit road [therefore requiring
repeaters], or three separate stretches of road of 500m, 100m & 500m,
not requiring repeaters.

[1] And if somehow you know it's longer than that, it could be 250m
before you can tell by the absence of repeaters (either 40 or NSL), that
you should have been doing 30mph from the start.
--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message . com, at
09:38:57 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
All the above are lengthy, complex and full of legal and technical
jargon. However, a good article, quoting from them all, can be found
on the Association of British Drivers website at:
http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

Thanks; used in an adjacent posting.
--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In this age of enforcing speed limits to several decimal places,
isn't it time all this "street lamps this" and "urban area that"
bollox was abolished and speed restrictions were, hey, just clearly
signed, with frequent repeaters?

You can drive around some areas passing speed camera signs on every
lamppost (so it can't be a cost problem), but no indication of what
the actual speed limit IS. Even if you know that you're on an urban
road, the street lamps are 8.7 furlongs apart and it's Tuesday so the
limit is 50, chances are the muppet in front thinks it's a 30 and
the one behind rummaging through the crap in your boot thinks it's
70.


--
Ian

"Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Roland Perry typed:
In message , at 17:50:32
on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Dr Ivan D. Reid
remarked:
ps Does anyone have a link to the current version of the document
where things like the "500m" above are defined?

"You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for
your vehicle (see the table below). Street lights usually mean that
there is a 30 mph speed limit unless there are signs showing another
limit.

The ABD page: http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm provided
elsewhere in this thread has the distances to which I refer. It's
quite complex, and also mentions the "200 yds" distance which makes a
street officially "lit".

Assuming that it's not almost entirely written with cul-de-sacs in
mind, I assume that when they refer to (eg) "Lit road more than 600m
in length on which the national speed limit applies" that what they
really mean is "Road with more than 600m of it lit ..."

So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where the
limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required.

But the guidelines do say that for lit stretches of 600m or more, the
first and last repeaters should be not more than 450m from the start/end
of the lit section, so it would be reasonable to expect at least one
repeater in a lit section of more than 450m.

However, the guidance is poor in my view. I much prefer the French
practice of often putting several repeater signs close together just
after the start of the limit, which leaves you in no doubt what the
limit is. In Britain, if you miss the initial sign, you will often
drive for 450m before you see a repeater, and for over 1000m if the
first repeater is on the right-hand side of the road when it can be
obscured by oncoming traffic.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message , at
21:33:43 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Richard J.
remarked:
So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where the
limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required.

But the guidelines do say that for lit stretches of 600m or more, the
first and last repeaters should be not more than 450m from the
start/end of the lit section, so it would be reasonable to expect at
least one repeater in a lit section of more than 450m.

Yes, if the lit section is more than 600m. Especially if you are new to
the area, you may not know how far the lights go.

However, the guidance is poor in my view. I much prefer the French
practice of often putting several repeater signs close together just
after the start of the limit, which leaves you in no doubt what the
limit is. In Britain, if you miss the initial sign,

Which initial sign is that? We are mainly talking about isolated
stretches of lit road (whether they be thorough a village, or merely
adjacent to a junction) where there's no sign at the start of the lit
section.

you will often drive for 450m before you see a repeater, and for over
1000m if the first repeater is on the right-hand side of the road when
it can be obscured by oncoming traffic.

--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message , Roland
Perry writes
There are many places on roads where NSL applies, and upon which you
can encounter isolated junctions with street lighting (it often happens
where an unlit bypass has a junction with the "old" road through a
village). But they rarely trigger an automatic 30mph limit for that
short stretch of the road.

That's an aspect which still has me confused, and I've seen a good many
more of these recently. I agree that they are rarely marked with
explicit 30 mph limits, but if there are two or more street lights with
less than 200 yards separating them, doesn't that mean that they
automatically impose a 30 mph limit? It sounds as if you think not,
but I'd be grateful for a fuller explanation of why you think that.


--
Clive Page

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

nRoland Perry typed:
In message , at
21:33:43 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Richard J.
remarked:
So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where
the limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required.

But the guidelines do say that for lit stretches of 600m or more, the
first and last repeaters should be not more than 450m from the
start/end of the lit section, so it would be reasonable to expect at
least one repeater in a lit section of more than 450m.

Yes, if the lit section is more than 600m. Especially if you are new
to the area, you may not know how far the lights go.

No, what I mean is that it would be reasonable to apply the "first
repeater within 450m" rule for lit sections of between 450 and 600m as
well as for those of 600m.

However, the guidance is poor in my view. I much prefer the French
practice of often putting several repeater signs close together just
after the start of the limit, which leaves you in no doubt what the
limit is. In Britain, if you miss the initial sign,

Which initial sign is that? We are mainly talking about isolated
stretches of lit road (whether they be thorough a village, or merely
adjacent to a junction) where there's no sign at the start of the lit
section.

In which case the previous limit still applies. Where the limit
changes, they should sign it properly, and it stays in force until the
next limit change. If there's likely to be any doubt, put in extra
repeaters as necessary. But all this stuff about street lights and
whether they are close enough together is not helpful. (I mean the DfT
rules are unhelpful, not your discussion of them.) It's led to ludicrous
rules like it being illegal to put up 30mph repeaters in a lit street
unless there is a speed camera within 1km.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message , at
00:16:32 on Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Richard J.
remarked:

So there is the possibility of stretches of 599m of lit road where
the limit is still NSL, without any repeaters being required.

But the guidelines do say that for lit stretches of 600m or more, the
first and last repeaters should be not more than 450m from the
start/end of the lit section, so it would be reasonable to expect at
least one repeater in a lit section of more than 450m.

Yes, if the lit section is more than 600m. Especially if you are new
to the area, you may not know how far the lights go.

No, what I mean is that it would be reasonable to apply the "first
repeater within 450m" rule for lit sections of between 450 and 600m as
well as for those of 600m.

I'm not sure that a repeater 450 yards into a 500 yard lit section is
every helpful. What's really needed is a repeater at the *first*
lamp-post. I have no idea why this rather simple thing isn't part of the
recommendations.

However, the guidance is poor in my view. I much prefer the French
practice of often putting several repeater signs close together just
after the start of the limit, which leaves you in no doubt what the
limit is. In Britain, if you miss the initial sign,

Which initial sign is that? We are mainly talking about isolated
stretches of lit road (whether they be thorough a village, or merely
adjacent to a junction) where there's no sign at the start of the lit
section.

In which case the previous limit still applies.

No, and this is the whole point. Where there are lights the previous
limit is irrelevant, and the limit is automatically 30mph. *Except* for
very short lit sections, and except when there are repeaters. But
because you don't encounter the repeaters immediately, nor do you
encounter the other end of the lit section immediately (so can't tell if
it's "very short" or not), there is always a doubt about what the limit
is until you've surveyed the stretch in advance.

Where the limit changes, they should sign it properly,

"Properly" seems to be defined by these recommendations about "450m"
etc. I agree that it seems inadequate.

and it stays in force until the next limit change. If there's likely
to be any doubt, put in extra repeaters as necessary. But all this
stuff about street lights and whether they are close enough together is
not helpful. (I mean the DfT rules are unhelpful, not your discussion
of them.)

And another thing. How is the 200yds measured? Is it literally from lamp
standard to lamp standard (which may be on alternate sides of the road)
or is it measured along the middle of the road between perpendiculars to
each lamp?

It's led to ludicrous rules like it being illegal to put up 30mph
repeaters in a lit street unless there is a speed camera within 1km.

That's interesting. I've seen some villages in Essex with 30mph
repeaters. I always thought that was because Essex took a different view
on where they could be installed. I will look a bit closer at the lamp
spacing next time, and see if the roads aren't in fact "lit" officially.
There are no speed cameras.
--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

In message , at 23:30:26 on Mon, 28
Nov 2005, Clive Page remarked:
In message , Roland
Perry writes
There are many places on roads where NSL applies, and upon which you
can encounter isolated junctions with street lighting (it often
happens where an unlit bypass has a junction with the "old" road
through a village). But they rarely trigger an automatic 30mph limit
for that short stretch of the road.

That's an aspect which still has me confused, and I've seen a good many
more of these recently. I agree that they are rarely marked with
explicit 30 mph limits, but if there are two or more street lights with
less than 200 yards separating them, doesn't that mean that they
automatically impose a 30 mph limit? It sounds as if you think not,
but I'd be grateful for a fuller explanation of why you think that.

Looking at the rules as expressed on the ABD site - and assuming the
lamps are close enough together (200yds) to make the road officially
"lit":

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

If the lit section is less than 350m (and the speed limit either side is
40 or NSL), then no repeaters are required. This is difficult to unpick.
However, from the general tone of the rules I believe that it's correct
to assume that such a stretch of road has "missing" 40/NSL repeaters,
rather than "missing" 30mph signs.

Similarly if the lit section is less than 450m, and the road either side
has a 50mph limit. (Very few roads have explicit 60mph limits, so let's
not worry about that one).

On the other hand:

If the lit section of road is between 350m and 600m long, and has NSL
either side, then one would expect to find a "derestricted" repeater in
the first 250m. The lack of such a repeater would imply the road is
30mph.

If the lit section of road is over 600m long, and has NSL either side,
the first repeater must be within 450m. The lack of such a repeater
would imply the road is 30mph.

[And similar rules for the last two for 40mph, 50mph and 60mph roads].
--
Roland Perry

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

There are countdown signs on the approaches to some villages near where
I live: the usual diagonal stripes with a speed limit sign above, except
that the red ring is grey (presumably to stop it being a speed limit sign).

When I first saw one of those combined "countdown and speed-limit" signs,
I interpreted it as "there is a speed limit HERE, because there is
a junction in x00 metres", not "there will be a speed limit in x00 metres"

Richard [in PE12]

Unsigned Roads (30mph limit)
 

Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III typed:
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

There are countdown signs on the approaches to some villages near
where I live: the usual diagonal stripes with a speed limit sign
above, except that the red ring is grey (presumably to stop it being
a speed limit sign).

When I first saw one of those combined "countdown and speed-limit"
signs, I interpreted it as "there is a speed limit HERE, because
there is a junction in x00 metres", not "there will be a speed limit
in x00 metres"

When countdown signs for temporary speed limits on motorways were first
introduced, they had a black circle instead of a red one, which made it
clear that it wasn't an immediate change of limit. But nowadays, the
circles are red, which leads to the confusion you describe. I often see
what appears to be a speed limit sign, and ease off my speed, and then
notice that it's not for 300 yards because it's got three little stripes
below it. Not a good design, I feel.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)