wrote:

Aidan Stanger wrote:

My plan for Line 1 also involves taking over some longer distance
services so that it is more profitable.


(snip)

What do you have against the (far more profitable) longer distance
distinations such as Milton Keynes?

Two words: performance pollution. Crossrail as currently envisioned
would essentially be a tube line on a larger scale - the distance
beyond the conurbation it runs would be comparable with that of the
Metropolitan line.

Won't passengers get a bit hacked off if what is essentially a suburban
commuter service was to be disrupted because of delays on a regional
train eighty miles away?

Why would the distance away that the delays occur at cause any problems?
If anything, I'd expect a delay further away to be less of a problem
because there would be more opportunity to recover.

Personally, I suspect RER-style services work best on a segregated
suburban basis.

Anything is bound to be more reliable if it's entirely self contained,
but the benefits of using the WCML outweigh the risk. Consider
Thameslink - do you think it would be better value if they tried to keep
it self contained?

Under my plan, Crossrail would almost have the WCML slow lines to
itself. And there would be recovery time built into the schedule so that
delays would be minimized. But totally eliminating delays is extremely
difficult, even on a line that's operationally isolated, as I'm sure
regular users of the Jubilee Line would tell you...

The current Crossrail proposal does have its problems -
the waste of trains not going west of Paddington,

Do you at least concede that running them to Milton Keynes is more
sensible than turning them back at Paddington?

missing out City Airport,

That's only because CLRL didn't think it was worth the money to put a
station in the vicinity! It's strange, but they try to save a few
million pounds on a line that wastes billions.

and the rather halfhearted nature of the attempt to serve
North Kent and South East London - but being restricted to fairly local
destinations is not one of them. Neither is serving Whitchapel, which
is likely to become a much more important interchange once the ELL is
completed.

But again, how much do you think a Whitechapel stop is worth? If the
line were going there anyway then putting in a station would be a
sensible move. But under the current plans, the delays to the 95+% of
Crossrail passengers not going to Whitechapel outweigh the time savings
to the few who are (who could easily get there by Tube anyway).

"Aidan Stanger" wrote

Under my plan, Crossrail would almost have the WCML slow lines to
itself.

Stand on the Slow Line platform at, say, Watford Junction and watch how much
freight uses the slow lines.

Peter

Aidan Stanger wrote:
wrote:


Won't passengers get a bit hacked off if what is essentially a suburban
commuter service was to be disrupted because of delays on a regional
train eighty miles away?

Why would the distance away that the delays occur at cause any problems?
If anything, I'd expect a delay further away to be less of a problem
because there would be more opportunity to recover.


If Crossrail was to go to Milton Keynes, then it'd be very difficult to
segregate its tracks. A delay on a regional train between London and
the West Midlands could have a knock on effect on a tube-like service
in east London (after all, with trains every two minutes through the
central tunnel there'd be no time to recover if a train missed its
slot). If my tube train was delayed because of a problem eighty miles
away I'd be a mite hacked off.

Personally, I suspect RER-style services work best on a segregated
suburban basis.

Anything is bound to be more reliable if it's entirely self contained,
but the benefits of using the WCML outweigh the risk. Consider
Thameslink - do you think it would be better value if they tried to keep
it self contained?

I do believe it would be better focused on Greater London, actually.
Providing a link between Gatwick and Luton is a good think because of
the airports, but I've never quite been convinced that there's a market
for people to go from Bedford to Brighton. There will be a market for
people to go from Bedford to Blackfriars, yes; but I think there's
probably a bigger market of people in the south London and Surrey/Kent
suburbs who want to go to King's Cross or Farringdon.


The current Crossrail proposal does have its problems -
the waste of trains not going west of Paddington,

Do you at least concede that running them to Milton Keynes is more
sensible than turning them back at Paddington?


Yes, but I think turning them back at Watford or somewhere comparable
would be more sensible still.


missing out City Airport,

That's only because CLRL didn't think it was worth the money to put a
station in the vicinity! It's strange, but they try to save a few
million pounds on a line that wastes billions.


That one I agree with you on.


But again, how much do you think a Whitechapel stop is worth? If the
line were going there anyway then putting in a station would be a
sensible move. But under the current plans, the delays to the 95+% of
Crossrail passengers not going to Whitechapel outweigh the time savings
to the few who are (who could easily get there by Tube anyway).

It's not about passengers that are going to Whitechapel - it's about
passengers that are going to Croydon, Peckham or Hoxton. The idea of
having two major new railway projects in London, that will between them
bring tube-like services to new swathes of the city, crossing and not
providing a connection in this day and age is just... odd, frankly.
Plus, stopping Crossrail at Whitechapel makes up somewhat for not
having a Central Line-ELL interchange.

Jonn

Aidan Stanger wrote:
Why would the distance away that the delays occur at cause any problems?
If anything, I'd expect a delay further away to be less of a problem
because there would be more opportunity to recover.

Only if you have a lot of slack time.

Also, trains can get even later once they've lost their path.

On 5 Jan 2006 03:01:34 -0800, wrote:

Aidan Stanger wrote:
wrote:

Anything is bound to be more reliable if it's entirely self contained,
but the benefits of using the WCML outweigh the risk. Consider
Thameslink - do you think it would be better value if they tried to keep
it self contained?

I do believe it would be better focused on Greater London, actually.
Providing a link between Gatwick and Luton is a good think because of
the airports, but I've never quite been convinced that there's a market
for people to go from Bedford to Brighton. There will be a market for
people to go from Bedford to Blackfriars, yes; but I think there's
probably a bigger market of people in the south London and Surrey/Kent
suburbs who want to go to King's Cross or Farringdon.

There is also a market for people travelling from south of Gatwick,
who wish to go to Luton Airport or to a station at which they can
connect with MML same platform or over the bridge. You should also
reflect on the fact that Farringdon can be a better connecting station
for travel to Liverpool Street and points from there, and Euston or
Marylebone and points from there. City Thameslink is also good for
buses along the Strand or High Holborn.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:09:10 +0000, Terry Harper
wrote:

I've never quite been convinced that there's a market
for people to go from Bedford to Brighton

Plenty of poofters in Bedford, last time I looked :-_)

Oh, I'm sure there's a market for all sorts of journey's that
Thameslink allows. I've just always been surprised that there aren't
more allowed by focusing on serving the densly populated M25 area than
by running to towns that lie further off - I'm assuming that either

a) they've done studies and I am entirely wrong; or

b) the cost-benefit ratio for longer distance journeys is superior
because of the higher fares you can charge outside the travelcard
zones.

Nonetheless, I've always been surprised that Thameslink 2000 focused on
bringing in places like Littlehampton and King's Lynn, rather than
providing a better service to south east London suburbs that don't have
the tube.

On 5 Jan 2006 16:14:53 -0800, wrote:

Oh, I'm sure there's a market for all sorts of journey's that
Thameslink allows. I've just always been surprised that there aren't
more allowed by focusing on serving the densly populated M25 area than
by running to towns that lie further off - I'm assuming that either

a) they've done studies and I am entirely wrong; or

b) the cost-benefit ratio for longer distance journeys is superior
because of the higher fares you can charge outside the travelcard
zones.

Nonetheless, I've always been surprised that Thameslink 2000 focused on
bringing in places like Littlehampton and King's Lynn, rather than
providing a better service to south east London suburbs that don't have
the tube.

ISTR reading an SRA report on Crossrail, which discussed whether it
should be a "regional metro" (LU-style - all trains stopping at all
stations) or a "regional express" (a bit like Thameslink
Bedford-Brighton).

It concluded that the former was the more beneficial.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:09:10 +0000, Terry Harper
wrote:


I've never quite been convinced that there's a market

for people to go from Bedford to Brighton


Plenty of poofters in Bedford, last time I looked :-_)

Midnight Ploughboy.

--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

Aidan Stanger wrote:
Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:
Aidan Stanger wrote:
Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:
Aidan Stanger wrote:

My website at http://www.bettercrossrail.co.uk is now up and running. It
features a plan for getting Crossrail constructed at a fraction of the
cost of the CLRL plan (or of the Superlink plan) so that more Crossrail
lines can subsequently be constructed.

Aidan,

Your opening statement seems to imply that Crossrail is too expensive.
But, I see nothing in you proposals that reduce cost.

I am greatly concerned by this, as it means I will probably have to
reorganize the site. But I am surprised as I thought it was pretty
clear. What do other readers think? Should I do separate pages for
Line 1 and the rest of the Bettercrossrail plan?

My proposals save money by making Crossrail Line 1 more like the earlier
cheaper version of the scheme. The main ways it would save money are by
controlling costs more carefully (so that contractors are rewarded for
working more efficiently, but aren't liable for unforeseen geological
problems etc) and the really important saving of...

...less tunneling!

In the present business climate I think cost control WILL be a
priority,

Unfortunately costs are out of control on many large civil engineering
projects in Britain, particularly railway ones - and even where costs
are under control they're far higher than their continental equivalents.

The new order for the railways, i.e. DfT control is going to mean much
less cash and therefor tighter control. Lean times are coming. This
project had better be within budget.

By not including the Canary Wharf branch as part of Line 1, and not
diverting the line through Whitechapel, it saves a couple of *billion*
pounds. Journeys between zone 1 and Stratford get much faster, and by
diverting a small fraction of the saving to boat subsidies, Canary Wharf
gets more passenger capacity sooner.

But, Docklands is a very important destination. It is the new 'city'.
It is the London employment center of the future.

And under my plan it will have better transport links immediately. It
won't get a Crossrail line so soon, but when it does get one it will
have twice as many trains per hour and thrice as many stations as CLRL's
planned branch. My plan also includes taking over the Tilbury line from
Dagenham, extending the "London employment center of the future" along
the entire Thames Gateway.

You have a point. But, don't expect Crossrail 2 to follow any time
soon. Hackney to Chelsey has been on the agenda for a VERY long time.
I think it needs to be built and soon. Moreover it needs to be to be
built to a 'mainline' loading guage. But, HMG is not going to sanction
two new underground lines in London at the same time. Crossrail 1 will
have to 'bed in' first.

Do you regard Victoria, Piccadilly Circus and Kings Cross as the London
employment center of the past? AIUI more people are employed there than
in Docklands. Should the problems of the present be ignored so that the
future conforms to one particular (rather limited) vision?

Of course they are very important to the present and future. Again,
HMG is not going to finance improvement to all London's transportation
infrastructure at once.

Moreover, interchange with the extended East London Line synergizes
both projects.

How much is synergy worth? How many minutes is it worth delaying every
train for the rather low proportion of passengers who would be
interchanging there?

Between Docklands and Croydon, a great deal. It is just a pitty that
the East London Line project has no worthwhile northern terminus.

My plan synergizes it far better, with some ELL trains initially running
to Stratford, and provision to later run some to Liverpool Street. There
is also scope for running trams from the City alongside the ELL
extension, as it only uses two tracks of a former four track railway.

Maybe, but I just don't see HMG authorizing/financing all this
construction activity at once. And then there is the purchase of new
trains....

My plan for Line 1 also involves taking over some longer distance
services so that it is more profitable.

But, this is a TfL project

Although TfL are involved, it is not just a TfL project.

geared to relieving the Underground system.
It is better to focus on financing, constructing and operating the
system with that goal in mind.

Why restrict yourself to such a ludicrously narrow goal? Why should the
problems of overcrowding on trains be ignored just because they're not
part of the Underground system? Why should options that make financing
it easier be overlooked because they also bring benefits to passengers
outside London?

By adding capacity to the London Underground Crossrail ! will improve
the lot of longer distance travellers.

My plan for Line 2 also involves less tunneling than the official
Line 2 plan, while Line 3 will serve the Docklands and Thames Gateway -
but with the advantage of experience constructing the first two lines
(making cost control easier), the advantage of serving a more developed
area (with regeneration spurred by the DLR and boats). Central London
gets the advantage of not having to compete so much for scarce funding,
and everybody gets the advantage of not being restricted by CLRL's
flawed plans and false assumptions.

Moreover, the present Crossrail plan has strength in its simplicity.
You proposals are more complex.

My proposals for line 1 are actually far simpler. It is only because my
proposals go much further that they are more complete.
[I meant to write "It is only because my proposals go much further that
they are more complex"]

Your campaign would be more effective in you focused on just the
'Crossrail one' line. The other material clouds the issue. But, I do
respect, and like, the way you are presenting your views.

If I restricted myself to Line 1 then I would get a lot of opposition
from people who want better transport in the Docklands area, people
concerned about freight services being squeezed off by passenger
services, and people who think we should make the Crossrail Line 1 plan
try to solve all of London's transport problems because the money will
never be available again.

But I will make a separate page for Line 1.

Wise move. Your presentation is good. And, your debating skills are
excellent. You clearly believe in your cause.

In my opinion the current Crossrail proposal is a good one East of
Paddington.

You think it's good to build a multibillion pound branch that only gets
half a service while the Victoria Line gets no congestion relief???
Do you also think it's worth diverting trains on the Stratford branch to
Whitechapel? Or running some of the Shenfield trains but not taking over
the entire service?

I doubt re-equipping the Hammersmith branch will run to billions.

It wouldn't, but the Docklands branch would.

And, I would like to see Crossrail take over ALL the Shenfield local
service.

Under the current Crossrail proposal it won't.

Then I'm with you on this one. The freed-up capacity at Liverpool
Street call improve service on the other lines beyond Stratford. BTW,
can anyone comment on the freight situation on the Shenfield line?

As for the Victoria Line, one new project cannot solve all of
London's transit problems.

But if Line 1 were cheaper, Line 2 could be built to solve a lot more of
them.

Would that our beloved politions, not to mention Dft accountants saw it
that way. :-)


Although I think there is a case for a station at Holborn.
It is West of Paddington that the current plans fall short of an
optimum solution. Turning 10 tph around at Paddington seems to be a
formula to inconvenience the maximum number of passengers.

In Modern Railways, October 2005, a Mr. Adam Edwards suggests Crossrail
should take over the Hammersmith branch. I endorse this proposal. The
cons a 1. The probable need for platform lengthening on the branch.
2. The need to re-electrify the branch at 25kV. 3. The loss of
Hammersmith depot for Circle Line trains.
4. The Crossrail trains would run nearly empty.

No more so than the present H & C trains.

True in absolute terms, but false relatively - the much longer Crossrail
trains would have far more empty seats.

I still content that this is better than reversing trains at
Paddington. I wonder if reducing the Hammersmith service to four tph
rather than six could be an answer.

I suspect a better service would attract more passengers.

Some new passengers, yes, but the number would probably be quite low.

This MUST be better than turning trains at Paddington.

I admit it is slightly better, but it still not a good option.

5. Fewer trains between Edgware Road (Circle) and Baker Street

If this is a critical issue, which I doubt,

Not critical, but significant enough to include on the list.

District Line trains could
be reversed at Baker Street. This may require signaling changes. But
if your comment above is true, the H&C trains are running nearly empty.

No, my comment was relative to train capacity - I'm not accusing H&C
trains of running nearly empty at all. Reversing services where there is
no third track to reverse into can be quite disruptive for through
services.

Since Crossrail will be conveyng passengers eastwards towards Moorgate
I think it will give the Northern half of the Circle considerable
relief. And, the loss of the H&C service between between Edgeware Road
and Baker Street will not be missed. Indeed if reliability improves on
the Circle it wil be a gain.
The pros a 1. The
Hammersmith Branch is self contained. There is NO risk of timetable
pollution. 2. Circle Line operation is greatly simplified. One
junction is eliminated. 3. 6tph are NOT turned around at Paddington.
4. This will allow more Met. trains to reach Moorgate or Aldgate, with
knock-on benefits to Metroland commuters.

As for platform lengthening, this could be counterbalanced by
rationalizing the number of stations on the branch. Do we really need
Royal Oak? for example.

What have you got against the people of Royal Oak? They've already lost
their main line station!

Nothing, but it is so close to Paddington,

All the more reason for a station! Paddington is a high growth area -
Docklands is not the only London employment center of the future!

and, a long walk from any residences or businesses.

Maps and aerial photographs show otherwise, unless all those big
buildings are empty!

My recollection is that it is an unpleasant walk under Westway to reach
anything north of Royal Oak Station. There are residences to the
south. However, I concede this point!

Royal Oak never had a Mainline Station.

I stand corrected. As other readers correctly guessed, I had confused it
with Westbourne Park.

At my computer, I sit! :-)

Re-electrification could be avoided by
utilizing dual voltage trains.
...which are significantly more expensive if you require high
performance UIVMM.

But, re-electrification is probably the
simpler and more resilient option. If I recall correctly, Circle Line
trains were once maintained at District Line facilities. I wonder how
easy it would be to do so these days?

As for the remaining 4tph, perhaps these could be reversed at Ealing
Broadway, this is surely preferable to doing so at Paddington.

What do you have against the (far more profitable) longer distance
destinations such as Milton Keynes?
This is a London plan.

Which is the better kind of London plan:

The one that benefits London the most?
Or the one that benefits only Londoners?

One reason London is so successful is because it's easy to get to. Many
corporations locate their headquarters in London because its large
catchment area makes it easier to recruit a skilled workforce.

It is designed to relieve the Underground.

Indeed it is, and that is an objective I support. My plan is also
designed to relieve the Underground, and does so as much as CLRL's plan.
But because my plan for Line 1 is cheaper, more of the Underground could
subsequently be relieved. CLRL's plan is worse than doing nothing,
because if the government does spend that much, their successors will
come to the conclusion that public transport is a waste of money. That
is likely to lead to decades of underinvestment.

The logical termination point for Milton Keynes and Northampton trains is
Birmingham New Street.

Although there is an obvious advantage in having major destinations at
both termini, I disagree. Firstly you don't need anywhere near as much
capacity into Birmingham as you do into London? Secondly, how many
people commute into Birmingham from S of Milton Keynes?

The Virgin trains are better for long distance commuting into London,
serving all the major towns N of Milton Keynes except Northampton.
Therefore it appears that the best thing to do would be to make
Northampton the boundary station. But if you look at a timetable or a
geographical map, you'll see that Milton Keynes Central and Wolverton
are quite close, while it's a long way from Wolverton to Northampton.
Therefore ISTM a better solution would be to terminate the high capacity
Crossrail trains at Wolverton, divert a few of the high speed Virgin
trains to serve Northampton, and extend the (much cheaper to run)
Central Trains service to Milton Keynes Central via Northampton.

This is hardly in Mr. Livingston's bailiwick.

Not Birmingham, but have you any idea how many London Underground
workers live in Milton Keynes? Its future is certainly linked to that of
London.

At first site the Silverlink AC tracks look like 'low hanging fruit'.
But, I think they are 'service polution' waiting to happen. Don't
forget the trains have plenty of opportunity to be delayed on the GW
main line as they make their way to your new connection at Willesden.
Between the two mainlines and their freight users timetabling would be
aweful.

Moreover, Silverlink Metro services to Watford are soon to transfer to
the Bakerloo Line.

I thought that was just a proposal. When is it going to happen? And how
will the people who want to get to Euston get there?

You are right. My knowledge is based on an article in December's
Modern Railways. It does look like LUL will be taking over the Metro
franchise currently owned by Silverlink. What actually happens,
remains to be seen. My guess is that we will evenually see ELL trains
terminating at Queens Park. Euston will be accessed by changing at
Primrose Hill/Chalk Farm.

I think we should examine the results of that
change before we relieve Euston of any more services.

I don't think we should relieve Euston of any useful services like that!

Let us see what happens.

My plan would give passengers from Watford and beyond (and also from
Willesden) much better access to more of London. For many people it
would be much more convenient than the Virgin service between Watford
and Euston, so they would change trains there instead. This means that
passengers who actually did want to get to Euston could change *onto*
the Virgin trains at Watford. As they are faster, nobody would be
disadvantaged by journey time[*] and the most inconvenience anyone would
have would be having to change trains at Watford Junction!

[*] except a few people in Bushey and North London where the semi fast
trains currently stop, but I expect most of them would prefer Crossrail
anyway.

Adrian, http://www.losangelesmetro.net/author/