On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:17:44 GMT, Alix wrote:

If I go from a zone 4 station to another zone 4 station then I guess
Oyster would charge me for one zone.

But what if the route I took went via Zone 3 and I never left any
station in between? Would Oyster charge me for 1 zone or 2 zones?

All Oyster would know is that I started in zone 4 and left in zone 4.

Not so.

Or is Oyster a lot smarter than that?

Yes! It knows the exact stations you started and finished at.

FOR EXAMPLE:
(1) Get on the tube at South Woodford (zone 4, Central line).
(2) Must travel via Stratford (zone 3).
(3) Get off at Ilford (zone 4, railway station served by One Rail).

Charged for one zone or two zones?

As has been noted, pre-pay is not valid on 'one' to Ilford, but the
example can be fixed by using Barking instead. In that case, the
system knows that a journey from South Woodford to Barking must pass
through zones 3 and 4, and would charge you accordingly (in the same
way as if you went to the ticket machine at South Woodford and bought
a ticket to Barking, it would sell you a Z34 single rather than a Z4
one).

Actually, this still isn't a very good example as the Z34 fare happens
to be the same as the Z4 one, but anyway.

You may then ask, does it know whether you decide to go via Mile End
(Z2), in order to make the journey with just one change of train? The
answer is that it doesn't, and would still only charge you the Z34
fare. AFAICS there's no way you could be liable for any sort of
penalty fare, either.

asdf wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:17:44 GMT, Alix wrote:

If I go from a zone 4 station to another zone 4 station then I guess
Oyster would charge me for one zone.

But what if the route I took went via Zone 3 and I never left any
station in between? Would Oyster charge me for 1 zone or 2 zones?

All Oyster would know is that I started in zone 4 and left in zone 4.

Not so.

Or is Oyster a lot smarter than that?

Yes! It knows the exact stations you started and finished at.

FOR EXAMPLE:
(1) Get on the tube at South Woodford (zone 4, Central line).
(2) Must travel via Stratford (zone 3).
(3) Get off at Ilford (zone 4, railway station served by One Rail).

Charged for one zone or two zones?

As has been noted, pre-pay is not valid on 'one' to Ilford, but the
example can be fixed by using Barking instead. In that case, the
system knows that a journey from South Woodford to Barking must pass
through zones 3 and 4, and would charge you accordingly (in the same
way as if you went to the ticket machine at South Woodford and bought
a ticket to Barking, it would sell you a Z34 single rather than a Z4
one).

Actually, this still isn't a very good example as the Z34 fare happens
to be the same as the Z4 one, but anyway.

You may then ask, does it know whether you decide to go via Mile End
(Z2), in order to make the journey with just one change of train? The
answer is that it doesn't, and would still only charge you the Z34
fare. AFAICS there's no way you could be liable for any sort of
penalty fare, either.

Sometimes it can work against you too, though; for some journeys, you
are always charged for a certain route even if a cheaper (but longer)
one exists. Potential example (though I haven't checked): Putney Bridge
(Z2) to Notting Hill Gate (boundary Z1/2) charged as a Zone 1 & 2
journey although a cheaper Zone 2 & 3 route exists (via Earl's Court and
Ealing Broadway).

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In article , asdf
writes
[Z34 journey]
You may then ask, does it know whether you decide to go via Mile End
(Z2), in order to make the journey with just one change of train? The
answer is that it doesn't, and would still only charge you the Z34
fare.

Right.

AFAICS there's no way you could be liable for any sort of
penalty fare, either.

Not on the automated system, no. But if there happened to be an on-train
inspection the situation would change.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:10:20 +0000, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

[Z34 journey]
You may then ask, does it know whether you decide to go via Mile End
(Z2), in order to make the journey with just one change of train? The
answer is that it doesn't, and would still only charge you the Z34
fare.

Right.

AFAICS there's no way you could be liable for any sort of
penalty fare, either.

Not on the automated system, no. But if there happened to be an on-train
inspection the situation would change.

Would it, though? You'd have touched in at the start of your journey,
and would be travelling on a "reasonable" route to your destination,
so I can't see what you'd be doing wrong.

Come to think of it, would the situation change if you had a Z34
Travelcard season on your Oyster? (Bearing in mind that you're allowed
to travel outside your zones, at least on routes where pre-pay is
valid, as the system is "supposed" to charge you the excess
automatically.)

AFAICS there's no way you could be liable for any sort of
penalty fare, either.

Not on the automated system, no. But if there happened to be an on-train
inspection the situation would change.

Would it, though? You'd have touched in at the start of your journey,
and would be travelling on a "reasonable" route to your destination,
so I can't see what you'd be doing wrong.

You are right. If you are using Oyster card to pay as you go and your card is
inspected while travelling on a train all they are going to do is look for the record
of you "touching in".

In article , Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
You may then ask, does it know whether you decide to go via Mile End
(Z2), in order to make the journey with just one change of train? The
answer is that it doesn't, and would still only charge you the Z34
fare.

Right.

AFAICS there's no way you could be liable for any sort of
penalty fare, either.

Not on the automated system, no. But if there happened to be an on-train
inspection the situation would change.

Why? Assuming you have pre-pay credit on your card, how on earth could
you be doing anything wrong? You 'tapped in', and 'tapped out', what
else were you supposed to do? Possibly the on-train inspector might do
something to your card which caused you to get charged a bit more
for entering the extra zone, but I can't see any way you could be
fined, surely?

In article , TKD
writes
You are right. If you are using Oyster card to pay as you go and your card is
inspected while travelling on a train all they are going to do is look
for the record
of you "touching in".

Good point. Until you touch out, they don't know where you're going.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article , (Clive D. W. Feather) wrote:

In article , TKD
writes
You are right. If you are using Oyster card to pay as you go and
your card is inspected while travelling on a train all they are going
to do is look for the record of you "touching in".

Good point. Until you touch out, they don't know where you're going.

I note the new fares leaflet has a note on Oyster capping on page 20:

*Some journeys have been defined as requiring
travel via Zone 1 and will be charged and
capped accordingly, irrespective of the actual
route taken.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:46:50 +0000, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

You are right. If you are using Oyster card to pay as you go and your card is
inspected while travelling on a train all they are going to do is look
for the record
of you "touching in".

Good point. Until you touch out, they don't know where you're going.

However, if, for example, you have touched in at South Woodford, and
are inspected on a train heading *towards* South Woodford, you might
have some explaining to do. (The hand-held readers do tell them what
station you started your journey at.)

I wonder if there are any rules (like on NR) about what route you can
take? One of the advantages of pre-pay is that you don't have to
decide on your destination before you start your journey - you can
change your mind because of, e.g., a mobile phone conversation on the
train, or a new idea, or remembering something you'd forgotten.
Changing your destination mid-journey might result in an unusual
route, so it would be useful to know. I think a read through the
Conditions of Carriage is needed.

[Later]

For paper tickets the following applies:

"Can be used to travel by any reasonably direct route to the
destination, unless a particular route is specified by the words on
the ticket, the ticket machines or price list or by one of our staff."

However, there is NO corresponding condition for Oyster pre-pay, so it
would *appear* (though IANAL) that you can take any route at all,
including doubling-back and even passing through your origin station
again by train, without being in violation of the CoC.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily stop them PFing you, so you might
have to be prepared to fight it out in court. I also note from the CoC
that all travel is subject to the following:

"If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or Oyster
card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this happens,
we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the ticket or
Pre Pay, or refund any deposit paid for the Oyster card."

....which appears (again, IANAL) to give them free rein to withdraw
your Oyster complete with all stored value, if they happen not to like
what you're doing with it.

In message , at 01:16:17 on
Wed, 4 Jan 2006, asdf remarked:
"If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or Oyster
card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this happens,
we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the ticket or
Pre Pay, or refund any deposit paid for the Oyster card."

...which appears (again, IANAL) to give them free rein to withdraw
your Oyster complete with all stored value, if they happen not to like
what you're doing with it.

Not quite. They would still have to prove intent to defraud. And that
requires a published definition of fraudulent use (at the very least by
comparing with a leaflet that describes non-fraudulent use), which seems
to be absent.
--
Roland Perry