wrote in message
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C! wrote:
Neillw001 wrote:
I've never found them to be as hot as parts
of the District/Circle in high summer.

The problem on the circle line seems to be all the heat coming from
under the seats

Yes, and the fact that none of the windows open. This is crazy! The
only stock with opening windows is the A60 and D78 - the more modern
stock does not (except a small bit of the end-doors).

It seems pure madness to have double-glazing throughout, for example,
on the C69/77 stock (Circle Line etc.) which is PURELY to house the
doors when they are open! More modern stock, e.g. 1992 stock on
Northern Line at least has the doors opening oustide the body, so no
double-glazing needed, but why did they not devise opening windows for
that stock?

I have today found out that on 1973 stock (Piccadilly Line), if one
sits on the VERY end seat, i.e. nearest the driver's bulkhead, a faint
stream of airconditioning breeze can be felt if one sits with one's
head right against the glass! I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I
think that this is the ONLY ventillated seat in driving carriages.

Marc.


When has 92TS ran on the Northern Line?
Andrew

There was an item on the news last night about overheating on the tube - but
in the stations, not on the trains. Engineers at Victoria (and later on at
other stations which get very hot) will use the water that is pumped out of
the ground (which would otherwise flood the station) to cool the ambient air
in a heat exchanger. They quoted reductions of temperatures of about 5 deg
C - to 25 deg C.

But none of this addresses the problem of the trains themselves getting
unbearably hot, which mainly happens because so few windows on modern stock
can open so you don't get a draught through the train.

Neil Williams wrote:
...which would instead cause similar crowds in stations or just
outside.

It wouldn't work, which is probably why it hasn't been done.

Why can't we air condition the stations at least? These can be just as
unbearable, and it can't be TOO difficult to do. Expensive, yes, but a
decent system could clean and filter the air too.

I know the deep level stations have the problem of heat extraction, but
if you can sort out the stations then it must help overall passenger
comfort. Else have part of a train that collects the extracted heat,
which is then vented at a station?

Jonathan

"awful S-stock" ?

Say 32% less seating for those unfortunates on the Met Line.

Jonathan Morris wrote:

Neil Williams wrote:
...which would instead cause similar crowds in stations or just
outside.

It wouldn't work, which is probably why it hasn't been done.

Why can't we air condition the stations at least? These can be just as
unbearable, and it can't be TOO difficult to do. Expensive, yes, but a
decent system could clean and filter the air too.

I know the deep level stations have the problem of heat extraction, but
if you can sort out the stations then it must help overall passenger
comfort. Else have part of a train that collects the extracted heat,
which is then vented at a station?

Jonathan

"Might" be feasible on a small station, but a place like Oxford Circus
has a total of 4 2/3 miles* of passageway (inc non public). Now look at
the air con plants at your place of work and consider where you'd put
one big enough to make a difference round OXO C
, or any other decent sized central London station. And as for Bank ...

The trains have a similar problem - any aircon plant big enough to deal
with 100 people per carriage is going to be too big to fit under the
floor or seats (scale up a four person car plant ...). And you have to
carry the heat out of the tunnel, not dump it in so you would need one
hell of a heat sink - with the same space constraint problem, as well
as a reliable system of dumping the heat when in the open and not in
the tunnel - and thats without the problem of the Victoria Line where
the trains only surface when in the depot...

The other issue is cost / benefit. After all do you really want to pay
for all this expensive engineering when the number of days the tube is
really unbearable is in finger counting territory in a typical year ?

Yes, and the fact that none of the windows open. This is crazy! The
only stock with opening windows is the A60 and D78 - the more modern
stock does not (except a small bit of the end-doors).

Admit defeat on this one - don't know why. Suspect the nanny state over
the years.
Haven't looked, but do the refurbished D78s have opening windows ? And
I can't remember whether the Pic '72s had them before their
refurbishment. If so we can approximately date the likely change in
standards.


It seems pure madness to have double-glazing throughout, for example,
on the C69/77 stock (Circle Line etc.) which is PURELY to house the
doors when they are open! More modern stock, e.g. 1992 stock on
Northern Line at least has the doors opening oustide the body, so no
double-glazing needed, but why did they not devise opening windows for
that stock?

They are not double glazed, there are two panes of glass :O)
Not as daft as it sounds, there is no seal and quite some airflow, and
the temperature of the air in the cavity is effectively the same as the
outside.

The trend to outside hung doors has more to do with the gaining of a
couple of inches of space ...

On 11 Jun 2006 00:44:42 -0700, "Mark W"
wrote:

The other issue is cost / benefit. After all do you really want to pay
for all this expensive engineering when the number of days the tube is
really unbearable is in finger counting territory in a typical year ?

Do you travel in the rush hour?

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

Neil Williams wrote:

Merseyrail is always pleasantly cool in summer, and I believe this is
in part down to groundwater - so the story on the BBC website about
cooling that may be helpful.


Perhaps they shoudHighbury an Islington are very cool, especially
compared with the neighbouring Victoria Line ones that are very hot

In article . com, Mark
W writes

Jonathan Morris wrote:

Neil Williams wrote:
...which would instead cause similar crowds in stations or just
outside.

It wouldn't work, which is probably why it hasn't been done.

Why can't we air condition the stations at least? These can be just as
unbearable, and it can't be TOO difficult to do. Expensive, yes, but a
decent system could clean and filter the air too.

I know the deep level stations have the problem of heat extraction, but
if you can sort out the stations then it must help overall passenger
comfort. Else have part of a train that collects the extracted heat,
which is then vented at a station?

Jonathan

"Might" be feasible on a small station, but a place like Oxford Circus
has a total of 4 2/3 miles* of passageway (inc non public). Now look at
the air con plants at your place of work and consider where you'd put
one big enough to make a difference round OXO C
, or any other decent sized central London station. And as for Bank ...

snip
But if we can cool the stations even a bit then when the trains stop
some of the internal heat can be exhausted.
I agree that air-con on the trains is virtually a non-starter - there is
nowhere for the heat to go and not enough space for the heat exchanger.
However, if we cool the stations then there is a chance that the tunnels
and trains will also be a bit cooler.
Obviously any ground water already pumped away should be used as a heat
sink, but surely we could also use water to transfer heat from the
platforms to the surface (heat exchanger both ends?

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On 8 Jun 2006 14:38:45 -0700, "John B" wrote:


[*] hmm, tautologous? Anyone know of an SMU?

http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/smu.htm ?

There have been railcars and multiple-vehicle units powered by steam,
but I don't know about ones which could work in multiple (rather than
just be coupled together or to a trailer)
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK