"Neil Williams" wrote in news:1150213202.886907.103880
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

CJB wrote:
All they have to do is to restrict boarding to the
front doors only.

Which would slow down boarding and alighting. That isn't the point.

I think it works poorly on Amsterdam trams, and a better investment
would be additional inspectors. Increase the penalty fare if it is
necessary to pay for them.


Not sure. My experience of Amsterdam trams, and Amsterdam transport in
general, is quite positive. Relatively well enforced as people have to
board through the front, apart from days when Ajax are playing at home when
there's a kind of amnesty and it's free for everyone.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:10:26 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

The counter argument, of course, is that pre-payment is now so high in
London and that so many forms of fraud have been removed by structural
changes you can argue just how effective a big effort would be. We have
flat fares so no over-riding, we have one bus zone so no "out of zone"
season ticket fraud, Travelcards are valid on all buses so rail zones
are irrelevant, all Oyster personalised and registered cards can be
barred from use, smartcard technology facilitates sophisticated fraud
analysis, Oyster checking helps the driver detect out of date or out of
value cards more readily and children travel free. This really only
leaves out of date passes / permits, forgeries and stolen cards, non
validated cards on cashless routes and blatant non payment - again
probably only on cashless / heritage routes to any level as drivers
check on all other routes. Many people complain about the London fare
structure but it many ways the policy is ingenious in that it has
designed out the opportunity for many frauds to be committed.

Is it not possible to board a bendy with only a PAYG Oyster, but not
touch in unless/until you see revenue inspectors boarding, thus
getting lots of free rides with almost no chance of getting caught?

"CJB" wrote in message

their bendy buses. All they have to do is to restrict boarding to the
front doors only. CJB.

I hope that TfL don't do this. I'd rather have a bus that's
quick to board and suffer a certain percentage of fare evaders.

Having to show your ticket to the driver is going to slow things down.
At the moment, I can present my Oyster Card to a reader after the bus
has been moving a few seconds. I wouldn't want to have to do this
serially with other people.

Anyway, if you did have to board at the front, how are you going to
enforce it ? If a driver sees someone entering through the exit doors,
what's he going to do ? Call the BTP ? Walk down the bus and remove
them ?

I'd rather bus DRIVERS do just that: battle through London's traffic
and have bus conductors (maybe one per three buses) who check tickets
at random, so that people have say a 40% chance of getting checked some
where along the jny.

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Tristán White wrote:

Not sure. My experience of Amsterdam trams, and Amsterdam transport in
general, is quite positive.

As is mine - but the location of the rear "kiosk" and the driver mean
that it, like most UK buses, is too slow at the stops because people
have to queue to board.

Given that trams are designed to carry high volumes, this can slow them
down a lot at busy times. It'd make a lot more sense to have the
conductor roaming around the tram selling tickets like they do on many
of the UK systems, if you're going to have one.

OK, it makes it difficult if the tram is wedged, but so do the kiosks.

Neil

Richard M Willis wrote:

Anyway, if you did have to board at the front, how are you going to
enforce it ? If a driver sees someone entering through the exit doors,
what's he going to do ? Call the BTP ? Walk down the bus and remove
them ?

The usual approach on the deckers (where this does apply) is to stop
the engine and announce (if PA is fitted) / shout inaudibly (if not)
that the bus isn't moving until the offender pays. It tends to work;
either the offending individual moves themselves, or the other
passengers assist them in doing so.

I'd rather bus DRIVERS do just that: battle through London's traffic
and have bus conductors (maybe one per three buses) who check tickets
at random, so that people have say a 40% chance of getting checked some
where along the jny.

Agreed.

Neil

asdf wrote:

Is it not possible to board a bendy with only a PAYG Oyster, but not
touch in unless/until you see revenue inspectors boarding, thus
getting lots of free rides with almost no chance of getting caught?

They might see you do that. It'd be tremendously suspicious if, on
boarding, there was a queue at the machine.

Neil

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 20:13:50 +0100, "Chris Read"
wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

There will now follow a torrent of posts telling me I'm talking out of
the top of my head and that TfL is the evil empire and should be nuked
by George Dubya.

I reckon that, were the Routemaster to be re-introduced to oust the bendies,
there would be a torrent of complaints - not least from those who fought the
scrapping of the RM so vociferously over the last couple of years.

In terms of fare evasion, I am a semi-regular on the Heritage 15, and there
have been several occasions where the Conductor has not ventured upstairs
for the entire journey, despite only having to 'look after' about 20
passengers in total. Of course, this was widespread when the Routemaster was
in normal service.

However, to my mind, the Bendies should be heavily targetted by Inspectors.
I rather suspect that, as is human nature, the Inspectors go for 'easy
targets' - ie nice quiet suburban routes - wherever possible. I'm willing to
be proven wrong here, however. I use bendies maybe twice a week, and have
never been asked to produce my ticket since the Red Arrow 507 went over in
2002(?).

At the 453 stop just before the E&C roundabout, I see a squad of inspectors
and police around once a week or more, targeting the bendies coming from
Peckham. They almost always have a miscreant or two in tow after a bus stops.

I've also noted that the inspectors have a new Oyster reader that's about the
same size (if a bit thicker) as a 4-banger calculator. Very nifty and much
better than the huge readers they started out with.
--
Chris Hansen | chrishansenhome at btinternet dot com
|http://www.hansenhome.demon.co.uk or
|http://www.livejournal.com/users/chrishansenhome/

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 02:44:10 +0100, asdf wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:10:26 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

The counter argument, of course, is that pre-payment is now so high in
London and that so many forms of fraud have been removed by structural
changes you can argue just how effective a big effort would be. We have
flat fares so no over-riding, we have one bus zone so no "out of zone"
season ticket fraud, Travelcards are valid on all buses so rail zones
are irrelevant, all Oyster personalised and registered cards can be
barred from use, smartcard technology facilitates sophisticated fraud
analysis, Oyster checking helps the driver detect out of date or out of
value cards more readily and children travel free. This really only
leaves out of date passes / permits, forgeries and stolen cards, non
validated cards on cashless routes and blatant non payment - again
probably only on cashless / heritage routes to any level as drivers
check on all other routes. Many people complain about the London fare
structure but it many ways the policy is ingenious in that it has
designed out the opportunity for many frauds to be committed.

Is it not possible to board a bendy with only a PAYG Oyster, but not
touch in unless/until you see revenue inspectors boarding, thus
getting lots of free rides with almost no chance of getting caught?

I presume that the touch pads are deactivated before the bus stops for
inspectors. If not, they should be.
--
Chris Hansen | chrishansenhome at btinternet dot com
|http://www.hansenhome.demon.co.uk or
|http://www.livejournal.com/users/chrishansenhome/

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
ups.com...
asdf wrote:

Is it not possible to board a bendy with only a PAYG Oyster, but not
touch in unless/until you see revenue inspectors boarding, thus
getting lots of free rides with almost no chance of getting caught?

They might see you do that. It'd be tremendously suspicious if, on
boarding, there was a queue at the machine.

More to the point, when the inspector reads the card, they'll see
that the date-stamp for the last xaction was "only a few seconds ago"

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Ian Jelf wrote:

I've been asked a couple of times on the 521. I don't use suburban
buses much in London but I've never encountered *any* inspections on
those I have used.

I once had my ticket checked on the tube to Ealing Broadway, then I got
on a bus and was inspected again.
--
Thoss