LUL false advertising
 

There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.

--
Work like the ponies in coalmines.
Dance like the teardrop explodes.
Love like you're Frank in Blue Velvet.
Sing as though your little throat would burst.

LUL false advertising
 

"Alan OBrien" typed


There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.

Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

LUL false advertising
 

I think they've changed the propaganda to say "pay the *right* fare",
not quite so positive a message.

LUL false advertising
 

Alan OBrien wrote:
There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.

If you do neither, then you do not have a valid ticket and are
deliberately trying to avoid the fare, rendering you liable for either a
penalty fare or prosecution. If you deliberately don't touch in or out,
then the same presumably applies.

Additionally, if you only do one, then you incur an unresolved journey
which may be charged at a high rate (e.g. exiting mainline gates at
London rail terminals), may prevent you from using your card (thus
losing your deposit if you don't top up) and will definitely prevent
capping from working (thus resulting in more expense).

The cheapest fare is the cheapest valid ticket for your journey. If you
don't have a valid ticket at all and don't intend to obtain one, you are
essentially a thief!

You could equally accuse Tesco of false advertising for saying that
their baked beans are cheaper than any other place's - Sainsbury's baked
beans are "free" if you shoplift them.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

LUL false advertising
 

Alan OBrien wrote:
There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.

Remember "best" can also mean "morally best"/"rightest", as well as
"most advantageous to yourself".

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

LUL false advertising
 

Alan OBrien wrote:
There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.

I guess "Oyster: it's more expensive than fare-dodging" isn't that great
a slogan.

LUL false advertising
 

Dave Arquati wrote:
Alan OBrien wrote:
There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.

If you do neither, then you do not have a valid ticket and are
deliberately trying to avoid the fare, rendering you liable for either a
penalty fare or prosecution. If you deliberately don't touch in or out,
then the same presumably applies.

With Oyster there is this new scenario that hasn't as far as I can see
occured before in transport ticketing - to have a valid ticket fore the
whole journey a passenger must perform the correct action at the end of
that journey i.e. touching out. Obviously when a stations automatic
gates are in operation enforcing this is easy, but otherwise it relies
on the passenger doing the right thing.

There are ways to encourage this to happen: having inspectors at the
exit station checking that people have touched out; the daily cap only
working if a user touches in and out for every journey: and the
possibility of a financial penalty if a user doesn't touch in and out
each time (so far only implemented on journeys through National Rail
mainline stations).

These are problems that will come to the fore when Oyster is
implemented across National Rail in London, given that number of
ungated stations.


Additionally, if you only do one, then you incur an unresolved journey
which may be charged at a high rate (e.g. exiting mainline gates at
London rail terminals), may prevent you from using your card (thus
losing your deposit if you don't top up) and will definitely prevent
capping from working (thus resulting in more expense).

I wonder if there are any plans to penalise those with unresolved
journeys (other than in the case of NR terminals). It would make the
system less open to abuse especially once it's been implemented across
NR in London, though I'm sure it would cause a fuss as well.

Dave - where you say above if you don't touch in/out this "may prevent
you from using your card (thus losing your deposit if you don't top
up)" what do you mean? From what I've seen unresolved journeys don't
lock up someones card, not yet at least.


The cheapest fare is the cheapest valid ticket for your journey. If you
don't have a valid ticket at all and don't intend to obtain one, you are
essentially a thief!

You could equally accuse Tesco of false advertising for saying that
their baked beans are cheaper than any other place's - Sainsbury's baked
beans are "free" if you shoplift them.

A strong point that essentially deals with the original question -
though the original poster was welcome in pondering on the language
used by LU and sharing his thoughts here.

LUL false advertising
 

"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message

Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Can't someone come up with a better verb than "touch" ?

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

LUL false advertising
 

Mizter T wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
Alan OBrien wrote:
There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.
If you do neither, then you do not have a valid ticket and are
deliberately trying to avoid the fare, rendering you liable for either a
penalty fare or prosecution. If you deliberately don't touch in or out,
then the same presumably applies.

With Oyster there is this new scenario that hasn't as far as I can see
occured before in transport ticketing - to have a valid ticket fore the
whole journey a passenger must perform the correct action at the end of
that journey i.e. touching out. Obviously when a stations automatic
gates are in operation enforcing this is easy, but otherwise it relies
on the passenger doing the right thing.

There are ways to encourage this to happen: having inspectors at the
exit station checking that people have touched out; the daily cap only
working if a user touches in and out for every journey: and the
possibility of a financial penalty if a user doesn't touch in and out
each time (so far only implemented on journeys through National Rail
mainline stations).

These are problems that will come to the fore when Oyster is
implemented across National Rail in London, given that number of
ungated stations.

Indeed. I imagine the solution will be to make sure that touching in and
out is always in the user's best interest, and this will probably be
achieved by combining "refund-at-exit" as you mention (i.e. charging a
higher fare at entry and refunding if necessary at exit) with the
lock-ups of users' cards if too many unresolved journeys occur (as
mentioned below).

Additionally, if you only do one, then you incur an unresolved journey
which may be charged at a high rate (e.g. exiting mainline gates at
London rail terminals), may prevent you from using your card (thus
losing your deposit if you don't top up) and will definitely prevent
capping from working (thus resulting in more expense).

I wonder if there are any plans to penalise those with unresolved
journeys (other than in the case of NR terminals). It would make the
system less open to abuse especially once it's been implemented across
NR in London, though I'm sure it would cause a fuss as well.

Fuss could probably be avoided if TfL improved the publicity and signage
regarding when to touch in and out, and provided explicitly clear
instructions and examples on how the damn system works! At the moment,
most of the Oyster knowledge on the group is a combination of collected
experience, inside knowledge and educated guesswork. As well as the
easy-to-understand "guides to Oyster" at stations, there should be a
detailed resource available.

Dave - where you say above if you don't touch in/out this "may prevent
you from using your card (thus losing your deposit if you don't top
up)" what do you mean? From what I've seen unresolved journeys don't
lock up someones card, not yet at least.

This is just from hearsay, but I think *multiple* unresolved journeys
prevent the card from working.

The cheapest fare is the cheapest valid ticket for your journey. If you
don't have a valid ticket at all and don't intend to obtain one, you are
essentially a thief!

You could equally accuse Tesco of false advertising for saying that
their baked beans are cheaper than any other place's - Sainsbury's baked
beans are "free" if you shoplift them.

A strong point that essentially deals with the original question -
though the original poster was welcome in pondering on the language
used by LU and sharing his thoughts here.

True, it was just that the original poster's language implied that
fare-dodging was the desirable course of action, rather than merely a
possible one ("you should not swipe in..." rather than "you *could*
avoid swiping in"...). Probably just my over-reaction!

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

LUL false advertising
 

Richard M Willis wrote:
"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message

Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Can't someone come up with a better verb than "touch" ?

They'd better not!

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

LUL false advertising
 

Richard M Willis wrote:
Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Only PAYG users need to touch in. An Oyster travelcard is the same as a
paper card - it will open barriers where needed, and must be presented
to a revenue inspector for reading, but that's it.

However, if you have an Oyster travelcard and go out-of-zone without
previously having touched in, you can be issued with a £20 PF (eg if I
get on the Victoria Line at unbarriered Finsbury Park with a Z12 and
without touching in, and then head to Walthamstow).

So technically, the "always touch in and out for the best fare" advice
does apply people with Oyster travelcards as well, I guess...


Can't someone come up with a better verb than "touch" ?

"hold near"?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

LUL false advertising
 

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:35:51 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

With Oyster there is this new scenario that hasn't as far as I can see
occured before in transport ticketing - to have a valid ticket fore the
whole journey a passenger must perform the correct action at the end of
that journey i.e. touching out. Obviously when a stations automatic
gates are in operation enforcing this is easy, but otherwise it relies
on the passenger doing the right thing.

These are problems that will come to the fore when Oyster is
implemented across National Rail in London, given that number of
ungated stations.

Indeed. I imagine the solution will be to make sure that touching in and
out is always in the user's best interest, and this will probably be
achieved by combining "refund-at-exit" as you mention (i.e. charging a
higher fare at entry and refunding if necessary at exit) with the
lock-ups of users' cards if too many unresolved journeys occur (as
mentioned below).

And, as has been mentioned, that's what happens on NR at the moment.
AIUI, £5.00 is quite literally deducted from your pre-pay balance as
soon as you touch in at Marylebone, Euston, Liverpool Street, or
Fenchurch Street NR. The difference between that and the correct fare
is then refunded when (if!) you get off at a station pre-pay is valid
to, and touch out on a reader there.

Dave - where you say above if you don't touch in/out this "may prevent
you from using your card (thus losing your deposit if you don't top
up)" what do you mean? From what I've seen unresolved journeys don't
lock up someones card, not yet at least.

This is just from hearsay, but I think *multiple* unresolved journeys
prevent the card from working.

In the early months of pre-pay, when querying an unresolved journey at
a Tube ticket office, I was told that if you picked up too many
unresolved journeys (without getting them sorted out by the Helpline),
your card would/might* stop working. I don't know of any reports of it
actually happening though.

*I can't remember his exact words; perhaps he was just speculating.

The cheapest fare is the cheapest valid ticket for your journey. If you
don't have a valid ticket at all and don't intend to obtain one, you are
essentially a thief!

You could equally accuse Tesco of false advertising for saying that
their baked beans are cheaper than any other place's - Sainsbury's baked
beans are "free" if you shoplift them.

A strong point that essentially deals with the original question -
though the original poster was welcome in pondering on the language
used by LU and sharing his thoughts here.

True, it was just that the original poster's language implied that
fare-dodging was the desirable course of action, rather than merely a
possible one ("you should not swipe in..." rather than "you *could*
avoid swiping in"...). Probably just my over-reaction!

Perhaps he meant "best" fare as in the best of all possible fares that
could theoretically exist, rather than just the actual ones in the
table in the fares leaflet. Which would of course be £0.00 (at least
from the passenger's point of view, though perhaps not from the
taxpayer's). ;-)

LUL false advertising
 

Richard M Willis wrote:
"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message

Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

You need not touch in or out if you have a Travelcard loaded on your
Oyster that is valid for the entire journey. However if you're going to
travel out-of-zone on the Underground - i.e. go beyond the zones that
are covered by your Travelcard - then you'll need to ensure you
touch-in at the beginning of your journey, and touch-out at the end.
This is because you are combining the Travelcard with the Oyster
Pre-Pay function (the Pre-Pay function provides the ticket extension
for your out-of-zone travels).


An example - if you have a zones 1&2 Travelcard loaded on your Oyster
and normally travel from Olympia (an ungated station) to Temple on the
District line, there's no need to touch-in at the start of your
journey.

But if one day you were to travel out to Upminster (in zone 6), you
should touch-in at the start of your journey (on the Oyster readers at
Olympia) so when you get to Upminster the system knows where you've
come from and charges you accordingly (for the journey from zone 2 to
zone 6). If you didn't touch in, then as soon as you gott out of Zones
1 or 2 you'd be travelling without a valid ticket and subject to a
Penalty Fare.

If however you were to travel from Olympia up to Harrow & Wealdstone on
the direct National Rail Southern service, as Pre-Pay is not valid on
that route you'd need to buy a paper ticket extension to cover you from
the boundary of zone 2 up to H&W.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

LUL false advertising
 

Mizter T wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
Alan OBrien wrote:
There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.
If you do neither, then you do not have a valid ticket and are
deliberately trying to avoid the fare, rendering you liable for either a
penalty fare or prosecution. If you deliberately don't touch in or out,
then the same presumably applies.

With Oyster there is this new scenario that hasn't as far as I can see
occured before in transport ticketing - to have a valid ticket fore the
whole journey a passenger must perform the correct action at the end of
that journey i.e. touching out. Obviously when a stations automatic
gates are in operation enforcing this is easy, but otherwise it relies
on the passenger doing the right thing.

I believe there are some commuter type bus opperations somewhere (US, I
think), where in the evening peak, everyone boards at the start, and
pays their fare as they alight, so that the huge queue to pay on
boarding is avoided (because you all board together, but alight along a
spread out route).

Robin

LUL false advertising
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message You need not touch in or
out if you

However if you're going to
travel out-of-zone on the Underground - i.e. go beyond the zones that
are covered by your Travelcard - then you'll need to ensure you
touch-in at the beginning of your journey, and touch-out at the end.
This is because you are combining the Travelcard with the Oyster
Pre-Pay function (the Pre-Pay function provides the ticket extension
for your out-of-zone travels).

I wonder how this works for those situations where the "official"
routing for a journey involves zone 1, but you want to do it without
going through zone 1.

I had someone from Oyster explain to me the other day that Oyster
fares don't necessarily follow zonal conventions. She gave the example
of traveling from Saint John's Wood to South Ealing, saying that "The
System"
assumed such a journey would be made through zone 1, even if you managed
to do it without going through zone 1.

She said that if you have a Z2345 travelcard and you travel from SJW to SE
via
the Jub/Metro and Rayner's Lane lines, you need to pay for zone 1 even
though you
don't use it.

This seems to throw up a contradiction:
a) if you have a Z2345 TC, you don't have to touch in/out so if you go that
route you have a valid ticket all the way.
b) if you have a Z2345 TC and *do* touch in/out, Oyster will charge you
for a zone 1 journey which you don't have on your TC, so will take it out
of your PP balance.

This doesn't seem right to me.
Can anyone else explain how zones and Oyster PP interact ? It seems as if
it hasn't been throught through properly.

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

LUL false advertising
 

Richard M Willis wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message You need not touch in or
out if you

However if you're going to
travel out-of-zone on the Underground - i.e. go beyond the zones that
are covered by your Travelcard - then you'll need to ensure you
touch-in at the beginning of your journey, and touch-out at the end.
This is because you are combining the Travelcard with the Oyster
Pre-Pay function (the Pre-Pay function provides the ticket extension
for your out-of-zone travels).

I wonder how this works for those situations where the "official"
routing for a journey involves zone 1, but you want to do it without
going through zone 1.

I had someone from Oyster explain to me the other day that Oyster
fares don't necessarily follow zonal conventions. She gave the example
of traveling from Saint John's Wood to South Ealing, saying that "The
System"
assumed such a journey would be made through zone 1, even if you managed
to do it without going through zone 1.

First and obvious point - most people would not choose to go that way.
I certainly wouldn't advise that as a route! But it's an interesting
academic question.

She said that if you have a Z2345 travelcard and you travel from SJW to SE
via
the Jub/Metro and Rayner's Lane lines, you need to pay for zone 1 even
though you
don't use it.

I think it's fair enough for the system designers to assume that with
this example the route taken would be via zone 1 on the Central Line. I
guess if you did want to go via Rayner's Lane then you can ensure you
don't pay for zone 1 by exiting and re-entering the station via the
gates - thus ensuring the system knows what you're doing.


This seems to throw up a contradiction:
a) if you have a Z2345 TC, you don't have to touch in/out so if you go that
route you have a valid ticket all the way.
b) if you have a Z2345 TC and *do* touch in/out, Oyster will charge you
for a zone 1 journey which you don't have on your TC, so will take it out
of your PP balance.

In reply to (a) at St John's Wood you'd be forced to touch-in most of
the time as you'd have to go through the gates. If so, then exit and
re-enter at Rayner's Lane. If the gates are open, you could *not*
touch-in and continue to travel via Rayner's Lane legitimately.

In reply to (b) - that's because of the assumption built into the
system, which in the case of the example given is, as I've said
already, fair enough!


This doesn't seem right to me.
Can anyone else explain how zones and Oyster PP interact ? It seems as if
it hasn't been throught through properly.

I think the system has been thought through in a very detailed way, and
any assumptions it makes would be regarded as reasonable by most
people.

The potential complexity comes when Oyster Pre-Pay is implemented
London-wide on National Rail (NR). The possible issues here would be
similar to the above, where an A to B journey could go via C or D where
changing at D might be a slower but cheaper route than changing at C -
(similar to the 'route -not London' tickets that are already sold by
NR). The solution I guess would be to have Oyster readers at the
station that passengers must touch whilst they change trains. The
difficulty comes in trying to communicate this simply to passengers.

LUL false advertising
 

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:06:54 +0100, Richard M Willis wrote:

She said that if you have a Z2345 travelcard and you travel from SJW to SE
via the Jub/Metro and Rayner's Lane lines, you need to pay for zone 1 even
though you don't use it.

You can avoid paying for Z1 by leaving and re-entering the station at
Rayners Lane. (You have to walk past the gateline when changing trains
there anyway.) This effectively splits your journey into two journeys,
each of which is charged at the Z2-6/Z3-6 rate.

This seems to throw up a contradiction:
a) if you have a Z2345 TC, you don't have to touch in/out so if you go that
route you have a valid ticket all the way.
b) if you have a Z2345 TC and *do* touch in/out, Oyster will charge you
for a zone 1 journey which you don't have on your TC, so will take it out
of your PP balance.

This doesn't seem right to me.

It is right, in the sense that it's correct. (Of course, it's arguably
not right if you mean in the moral sense.)

Can anyone else explain how zones and Oyster PP interact ?

Looks to me like you already have it sussed.

LUL false advertising
 

On 29 Jun 2006 09:33:49 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

I think the system has been thought through in a very detailed way, and
any assumptions it makes would be regarded as reasonable by most
people.

The potential complexity comes when Oyster Pre-Pay is implemented
London-wide on National Rail (NR). The possible issues here would be
similar to the above, where an A to B journey could go via C or D where
changing at D might be a slower but cheaper route than changing at C -
(similar to the 'route -not London' tickets that are already sold by
NR).

At first I thought so too; but the more I think about this, the less
convinced I am that it would really be a problem (at least, no more so
than it currently is with the Tube).

Most of the time, the choice is between a faster route via Z1 or a
slower route avoiding it; but with NR, you almost always have to pass
through a barrier when crossing Z1 (assuming they put some in at
Waterloo; then I think FCC would be the only exception). So the system
would be able to know whether you went via Z1 or not.

Can you think of a concrete example on NR where there would really be
a problem? (I'm struggling to think of one where the "cheaper" route
isn't ridiculously slow.)

LUL false advertising
 

"John B" wrote in message
ups.com...
Richard M Willis wrote:
Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Only PAYG users need to touch in.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."



That goes for all Oyster cards, prepay and season tickets.

LUL false advertising
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
Richard M Willis wrote:
"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message

Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

You need not touch in or out if you have a Travelcard loaded on your
Oyster that is valid for the entire journey.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."



That is all Oyster cards.

LUL false advertising
 

Alan OBrien wrote:

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Only PAYG users need to touch in.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."

That goes for all Oyster cards, prepay and season tickets.

Yes but as discussed before not all passengers can touch in at some starts
and ends, due to lack of readers. I'm also left completely unclear as to
whether readers at National Rail stations with barriers (e.g. Ilford) are
sufficient or whether one has to again touch on to a reader when switching
to the tube.

On a daily basis I don't touch in when interchanging at Stratford, not least
because the readers on the platform are badly positioned given the crowds
the station has to cope with, and I've never had a problem when exiting the
system at a barrier.

LUL false advertising
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Alan OBrien wrote:

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Only PAYG users need to touch in.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."

That goes for all Oyster cards, prepay and season tickets.

Yes but as discussed before not all passengers can touch in at some starts
and ends, due to lack of readers. I'm also left completely unclear as to
whether readers at National Rail stations with barriers (e.g. Ilford) are
sufficient or whether one has to again touch on to a reader when switching
to the tube.

On a daily basis I don't touch in when interchanging at Stratford, not least
because the readers on the platform are badly positioned given the crowds
the station has to cope with, and I've never had a problem when exiting the
system at a barrier.

Woah - let's correct some things here.

The NCoC, whilst trying to be helpful, is wrong. As you've observed,
there aren't Oyster readers at most National Rail (NR) stations,
because Oyster Pre-Pay is not accepted as a way for paying for your NR
journey (this will change, but not a few years).

I'm going to make up a fantasy journey in your neck of the woods Tim to
illustrate a few things. Let's say you travel from Forest Gate (zone
3), a station *without* gates, into central London - say Oxford Circus
(zone 1), changing at Stratford onto the Central Line. In this case
you'll have a zones 1-3 Travelcard loaded onto your Oyster card (i.e.
you're not using Oyster Pre-Pay to pay for your journey at all).

You wouldn't need to touch-in at the beginning of your journey, not
simply because there aren't any readers at Forest Gate but because it's
not required (the NCoC is wrong here). Nor would you need to touch-in
your Oyster at a reader at Stratford when changing onto the Central
Line.

*If* you were to decide to go to West Ruislip (zone 6) at the end of
the Central Line in the west, then you *would* need to touch-in on an
Oyster reader on the Central Line platform at Stratford. This would
provide a start point for your journey on the Tube, and the gates at
West Ruislip would deduct the appropriate amount for the journey from
the edge of zone 3 to West Ruislip/zone 6.


In real life you start your journey from Ilford - but the gates you go
through are currently dumb, they don't mark an entry point onto the
transport system on your card (you are not touching-in here), they just
let you through as they can see you have the right zone on your card*.
Presuming you travel into central London, on the Central Line like the
fantasy journey above, you don't need to touch in at Straford, the
zones on your Travelcard have you covered. If you fancy seeing the
delights of West Ruislip then you need to touch-in at Stratford on the
Central Line platform.

I guess that's as clear as mud then, but it is right.

LUL false advertising
 

Alan OBrien wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
Richard M Willis wrote:
"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message

Yebbut if you get caught not touching in, you may end up with a £20
Penalty Fare. That might not be 'best'...

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

You need not touch in or out if you have a Travelcard loaded on your
Oyster that is valid for the entire journey.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."



That is all Oyster cards.

The NCoC is wrong here, both in terms of how the system works and in
terms of the physical reality. It is well intentioned though.

In terms of the system, if I hold a season Travelcard loaded onto my
Oyster and walk through the gates at a Tube or NR station, as long as I
stay within the zones I have then that is fine - I hold a valid ticket.
I do this, I get checked by inspectors, their handheld scanners show I
have a valid ticket and that is that.

In terms of the physical reality, there are *no* Oyster readers at the
majority of NR stations in Greater London. It is therefore impossible
to touch-in or out at these stations, full stop.

On the few NR routes where Oyster Pre-Pay is accepted, e.g. Elephant &
Castle to Kentish Town on the Thameslink route, then the NCoC is right
- you must touch-in and out to travel legitimately.

It would be difficult to word the NCoC to unambiguously to reflect the
reality of the situation. I'm sure the reason why the NCoC uses the
language it does is to ensure fare evaders can't hide behind it. And
perhaps the authors don't entirely understand how the system works.

LUL false advertising
 

Mizter T wrote:

I think it's fair enough for the system designers to assume that with
this example the route taken would be via zone 1 on the Central Line. I
guess if you did want to go via Rayner's Lane then you can ensure you
don't pay for zone 1 by exiting and re-entering the station via the
gates - thus ensuring the system knows what you're doing.

Actually I think that might cause problems as well. I've done this
(admittedly within my season ticket zones) when I was feeling a bit
grotty on one of the trains and decided to get some fresh air. So I
existed a station for about one or two minutes and then tried to
re-enter. This caused an error message and when I went to the gateline
staff they told me it was because I had just left.

I suppose that makes sense as exiting and then re-entering immediately
is rather odd behaviour and may indicate someone passing their card to
someone else.

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.

LUL false advertising
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Alan OBrien wrote:

Do you have to touch in if you are using a travelcard, rather than
PrePay ? I thought it was only PP users who had to touch all over the
place ?

Only PAYG users need to touch in.

The Conditions of Carriage state that "When you use London Underground
and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader
at
both the start and the end of your journey. Where the ticket gates at
stations are open you must continue to touch your Oyster card on the
reader."

That goes for all Oyster cards, prepay and season tickets.

Yes but as discussed before not all passengers can touch in at some
starts
and ends, due to lack of readers. I'm also left completely unclear as to
whether readers at National Rail stations with barriers (e.g. Ilford) are
sufficient or whether one has to again touch on to a reader when
switching
to the tube.

On a daily basis I don't touch in when interchanging at Stratford, not
least
because the readers on the platform are badly positioned given the crowds
the station has to cope with, and I've never had a problem when exiting
the
system at a barrier.

Woah - let's correct some things here.

The NCoC, whilst trying to be helpful, is wrong. As you've observed,
there aren't Oyster readers at most National Rail (NR) stations,
because Oyster Pre-Pay is not accepted as a way for paying for your NR
journey (this will change, but not a few years).

I'm going to make up a fantasy journey in your neck of the woods Tim to
illustrate a few things. Let's say you travel from Forest Gate (zone
3), a station *without* gates, into central London - say Oxford Circus
(zone 1), changing at Stratford onto the Central Line. In this case
you'll have a zones 1-3 Travelcard loaded onto your Oyster card (i.e.
you're not using Oyster Pre-Pay to pay for your journey at all).

You wouldn't need to touch-in at the beginning of your journey, not
simply because there aren't any readers at Forest Gate but because it's
not required (the NCoC is wrong here). Nor would you need to touch-in
your Oyster at a reader at Stratford when changing onto the Central
Line.

*If* you were to decide to go to West Ruislip (zone 6) at the end of
the Central Line in the west, then you *would* need to touch-in on an
Oyster reader on the Central Line platform at Stratford. This would
provide a start point for your journey on the Tube, and the gates at
West Ruislip would deduct the appropriate amount for the journey from
the edge of zone 3 to West Ruislip/zone 6.


In real life you start your journey from Ilford - but the gates you go
through are currently dumb, they don't mark an entry point onto the
transport system on your card (you are not touching-in here), they just
let you through as they can see you have the right zone on your card*.
Presuming you travel into central London, on the Central Line like the
fantasy journey above, you don't need to touch in at Straford, the
zones on your Travelcard have you covered. If you fancy seeing the
delights of West Ruislip then you need to touch-in at Stratford on the
Central Line platform.

I guess that's as clear as mud then, but it is right.


One slight issue.
The last three days the main gates at Stratford have been wide open and the
oyster readers dead (no light) I return travel to Holborn peak hours.
What would I be charged if on PAYG?
Will all incomplete journeys be sorted automatically?

LUL false advertising
 

David Howdon wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

I think it's fair enough for the system designers to assume that with
this example the route taken would be via zone 1 on the Central Line. I
guess if you did want to go via Rayner's Lane then you can ensure you
don't pay for zone 1 by exiting and re-entering the station via the
gates - thus ensuring the system knows what you're doing.

Actually I think that might cause problems as well. I've done this
(admittedly within my season ticket zones) when I was feeling a bit
grotty on one of the trains and decided to get some fresh air. So I
existed a station for about one or two minutes and then tried to
re-enter. This caused an error message and when I went to the gateline
staff they told me it was because I had just left.

I suppose that makes sense as exiting and then re-entering immediately
is rather odd behaviour and may indicate someone passing their card to
someone else.


Now you say it that issue does sound familiar, I think I've encountered
that.

In terms of exiting and re-rentering being a pain in the arse and you
as the passenger getting funny looks then that is a problem - you just
need to be let back in through the manual gates with the staff querying
your card using a handheld reader (if they can be bothered - or they
could always use a Oyster ticket machine to check your Oyster, I've
seen Tube staff do this). However it wouldn't be a problem in terms of
messing up your journey on the Oyster system. As this previous poster
explains [1]...

"Oyster can cope with an entry followed by two exits, as it just
extends the journey. However two entries followed by one exit will lead
to an unresolved journey."

....so you can go in (once), out (once), be let back in through the
manual gates and out (a second time). Being let back in at the gates
wouldn't count on your Oyster card.


[1] Link to Google Group archive of message:
http://tinyurl.com/pnybd

LUL false advertising
 

Andy wrote:
One slight issue.
The last three days the main gates at Stratford have been wide open and the
oyster readers dead (no light) I return travel to Holborn peak hours.
What would I be charged if on PAYG?
Will all incomplete journeys be sorted automatically?


The Oyster readers on the gates certainly seem dead if they have no
light on - this shouldn't be the case, they should always be on, but in
this case they may have been off (I've no idea why, especially for
three days running).

You'll be able to tell if you go to a Tube ticket machine and check
your journey history - there you can see if you have unresolved
journeys.

If all you do is travel from Stratford to Holborn and back, perhaps
with a bus journey at either end, then you won't be out of pocket.
Unless things have changed you'll be charged a single zone 1 fare on
exit at Holborn in the morning, and a further single zone 1 fare when
entering Holborn in the evening.

If however you've travelled much more than that on any day then you
wouldn't have benefited from the daily cap (the cap on how much you
spend each day), as this will only work on the condition that you
touch-in and out for each journey you make, any unresolved journeys
during that day and you forfeit your daily cap.

Obviously if you weren't able to touch-in/out at Stratford then this
isn't your fault. If you think you should've been capped but weren't,
you can either take this up at a Tube ticket office or perhaps better
get TfL to send you your recent journey history. As long as your card
is registered, if you call the Oyster helpline they'll send you the
last three months of your journey history at no cost. Then you can
identify any overcharging and get a refund.


See this FAQ answer on the 'Oyster help' website (what used to be
called 'Ask Oyster'):
http://tinyurl.com/jr97b

LUL false advertising
 

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:06:36 GMT, David Howdon
wrote:

I think it's fair enough for the system designers to assume that with
this example the route taken would be via zone 1 on the Central Line. I
guess if you did want to go via Rayner's Lane then you can ensure you
don't pay for zone 1 by exiting and re-entering the station via the
gates - thus ensuring the system knows what you're doing.

Actually I think that might cause problems as well. I've done this
(admittedly within my season ticket zones) when I was feeling a bit
grotty on one of the trains and decided to get some fresh air. So I
existed a station for about one or two minutes and then tried to
re-enter. This caused an error message and when I went to the gateline
staff they told me it was because I had just left.

I'm sure I did something similar to this a few months ago when I
arrived at a station by Tube, met a friend in the ticket hall, then we
immediately went back into the Tube. Can't remember whether I was
using pre-pay or a Travelcard, but the gates had no problem with me
exiting then entering again a very short time later.

I suppose that makes sense as exiting and then re-entering immediately
is rather odd behaviour and may indicate someone passing their card to
someone else.

Unlikely - that would generally involve an entry followed by another
entry, or an exit followed by another exit.

LUL false advertising
 

On 29 Jun 2006 15:46:07 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster can cope with an entry followed by two exits, as it just
extends the journey. However two entries followed by one exit will lead
to an unresolved journey."

...so you can go in (once), out (once), be let back in through the
manual gates and out (a second time). Being let back in at the gates
wouldn't count on your Oyster card.

Interesting. Does this apply to all exits, even ones at the barriers
on the way out of a station, where you can't just be changing to
another line? I'd have expected you to end up with a complete journey,
followed by an unresolved (unstarted) journey.

The other kind of validator is ones like the platform ones at Ealing
Broadway, where you might be ending your journey (transferring to NR)
or you might not be (either changing between District and Central, or
on your way to the station exit where there are barriers). AFAIK these
ones definitely work as you describe.

LUL false advertising
 

"David Howdon" wrote in
message

Actually I think that might cause problems as well. I've done this
(admittedly within my season ticket zones) when I was feeling a bit
grotty on one of the trains and decided to get some fresh air. So I
existed a station for about one or two minutes and then tried to
re-enter. This caused an error message and when I went to the gateline
staff they told me it was because I had just left.

This is just the passback time-out. It is, as you suggest,
to prevent people passing their card/ticket back to someone else
behind them. Hence the name. I've often exited station gate lines to
get some junk food and re-entered 90s later. The staff are well
accustomed to pass back time problems and I've never had any trouble
getting them to let me back in.

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Payment on exit (was: LUL false advertising)
 

With Oyster there is this new scenario that hasn't as far as I can see
occured before in transport ticketing - to have a valid ticket fore the
whole journey a passenger must perform the correct action at the end of
that journey i.e. touching out. ...

I believe there are some commuter type bus opperations somewhere (US, I
think), where in the evening peak, everyone boards at the start, and
pays their fare as they alight, so that the huge queue to pay on
boarding is avoided (because you all board together, but alight along a
spread out route).

Not only commuter. I don't know if it still is, but it used to be the
rule in Seattle on the ordinary city transit buses that on an outward
trip from the city center you paid on exit. Payment on exit has also
been used on the Rockaways line of the New York subway, and on some
parts of the Boston transit system. In Toronto, some TTC trips outside
the city use it. These last three cases have all been done as a way of
implementing fare zones without requiring people to produce a ticket
both on entry and on exit.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto,
"Have you ever heard [my honesty] questioned?"
"I never even heard it mentioned." -- Every Day's a Holiday

My text in this article is in the public domain.

LUL false advertising
 

On 29 Jun 2006 00:57:50 -0700, "John B" wrote:

Alan OBrien wrote:
There are posters on the Underground which say that people should always
swipe in and out so as to get the best fare.
If by 'best' they mean cheapest they are wrong.
Surely if you have the chance you should either not swipe in or swipe out,
or both.

Remember "best" can also mean "morally best"/"rightest", as well as
"most advantageous to yourself".

I think the posters actually say something along the lines of "TOUCH
in and out on every Tube/DLR journey to ensure you always pay the
CORRECT fare".

Nicholas

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Payment on exit (was: LUL false advertising)
 

In message , Mark Brader
writes
With Oyster there is this new scenario that hasn't as far as I can see
occured before in transport ticketing - to have a valid ticket fore the
whole journey a passenger must perform the correct action at the end of
that journey i.e. touching out. ...

I believe there are some commuter type bus opperations somewhere (US, I
think), where in the evening peak, everyone boards at the start, and
pays their fare as they alight, so that the huge queue to pay on
boarding is avoided (because you all board together, but alight along a
spread out route).

Not only commuter. I don't know if it still is, but it used to be the
rule in Seattle on the ordinary city transit buses that on an outward
trip from the city center you paid on exit. Payment on exit has also
been used on the Rockaways line of the New York subway, and on some
parts of the Boston transit system. In Toronto, some TTC trips outside
the city use it. These last three cases have all been done as a way of
implementing fare zones without requiring people to produce a ticket
both on entry and on exit.

I *think* there's an interurban or suburban tramway somewhere in the US
that does the exact opposite of this, ie you pay at exit on inward
journeys and at entry on outward. This was done in order to
concentrate the majority of revenue on one point which was (presumably)
a large and well-equipped City Centre terminal station.

It might have been in Philadelphia, but I could be wrong.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Payment on exit (was: LUL false advertising)
 

Ian Jelf wrote:

I *think* there's an interurban or suburban tramway somewhere in the US
that does the exact opposite of this, ie you pay at exit on inward
journeys and at entry on outward. This was done in order to
concentrate the majority of revenue on one point which was (presumably)
a large and well-equipped City Centre terminal station.

If it's a flat-fare system, which a lot of the US ones are, that makes
a bit of sense as it would mean that (assuming losses from people
fare-dodging for journeys not including the city centre were not
significant) you'd only need to maintain one set of barriers and
equipment.

Paying on exit does, however, have the disadvantage that you must get
at least a small proportion of people who only realise they don't have
appropriate means of payment after the debt has been incurred by
completion of the journey, rather than noticing when you pay beforehand
and therefore being able to address the issue before it's too late.

Neil

Payment on exit (was: LUL false advertising)
 

"Ian Jelf" wrote in message

journeys and at entry on outward. This was done in order to
concentrate the majority of revenue on one point which was (presumably)
a large and well-equipped City Centre terminal station.

So that any mugger who boards the train/bus would mug the passengers
rather than the driver (who wouldn't yet have taken the money) ?!
Neat.

Richard [in SG19]



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Payment on exit (was: LUL false advertising)
 

"Neil Williams" wrote

[snipped]

Paying on exit does, however, have the disadvantage that you must
get
at least a small proportion of people who only realise they don't
have
appropriate means of payment after the debt has been incurred by
completion of the journey, rather than noticing when you pay
beforehand
and therefore being able to address the issue before it's too late.

Which led to the famous song arising from the time when the Boston
MTA raised the subway fare from 10 cents to 15 cents some time in the
1940s (the song was revived in the 1960s) The MTA wasn't immediately
able to modify the turnstiles, so during the interim you had to pay
10 cents to get into the system, and another 5 cents to get out.

The song told of Charlie and the MTA

... he put 10 cents in his pocket, kissed his wife and family, and
went ride on the MTA

Did he ever return, no he never returned, and his fate is still
unlearned
He will ride for ever 'neath the streets of Boston, Charlie on the
MTA

Jeremy Parker