First Class within Zones 1-6
 

I seem to remember reading somewhere, possibly on this group (but now
of course I can't find it), that within zones 1-6 there was no such
thing as first class, i.e. if you had a travelcard you could sit in
first class carriages on NR services up to the boundary of the zones on
your travelcard.

I'm assuming this is no longer the case, as the announcer on my regular
morning train from Waterloo to Feltham is always very emphatic that
passengers sitting in the first class area must have a valid first
class ticket.

Was it ever the case, or have I completely made this up in my mind?

Patrick

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Jack Taylor wrote:

I'm assuming this is no longer the case, as the announcer on my
regular morning train from Waterloo to Feltham is always very
emphatic that passengers sitting in the first class area must have a
valid first class ticket.

Was it ever the case, or have I completely made this up in my mind?

You're possibly getting confused with the fact that SWT have often used
stock with first class accommodation on the Windsor lines on services
advertised as standard class only and it *may* (at the discretion of the
guard - although always, in practise, on class 450s by means of a PIS
message) be declassified on some services.

I'm reminded of some of the rows on Epsom to Waterloo services a decade ago
when the occasional slam door train was put on, complete with first class
compartments that weren't used on the standard only stock that was
otherwised for all services out of Epsom. Often passengers would crowd into
the first class compartments and ticket inspectors would shrug their
shoulders. Things could get messy when trains were taken out of service at
Wimbledon and everyone then piled onto the slam door trains that otherwise
ran fast on the Surbiton (?) line.

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Jack Taylor wrote:

wrote:
I seem to remember reading somewhere, possibly on this group (but now
of course I can't find it), that within zones 1-6 there was no such
thing as first class, i.e. if you had a travelcard you could sit in
first class carriages on NR services up to the boundary of the zones
on your travelcard.

Not true.


I'm assuming this is no longer the case, as the announcer on my
regular morning train from Waterloo to Feltham is always very
emphatic that passengers sitting in the first class area must have a
valid first class ticket.

Was it ever the case, or have I completely made this up in my mind?

You're possibly getting confused with the fact that SWT have often used
stock with first class accommodation on the Windsor lines on services
advertised as standard class only and it *may* (at the discretion of the
guard - although always, in practise, on class 450s by means of a PIS
message) be declassified on some services.

I've read about this in the past on the uk.railway ng. It is apparently
OK to travel in so-called "declassified" first class accomodation *if*
the train is advertised as standard class only - the definition of it
being advertised seems a bit murky - it seems it can either be in
advertised in the timetable or on posters at stations.

It also sounds possible that you'll be be berated for doing this by a
guard or inspector who doesn't understand that first class has been
declassified for that particular service.

Courtesy of the Google Groups archive you can read a couple of posts
from 2004 concerning this, they are both from the same thread so you
can read around the issue a bit more there as well. Watch for the
screen-wrap on these long URLs...

Stevie D's post:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....501bb643d60293

Martin WY's post:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....27751ecebbcc7b

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Jack Taylor wrote:
wrote:
I seem to remember reading somewhere, possibly on this group (but now
of course I can't find it), that within zones 1-6 there was no such
thing as first class, i.e. if you had a travelcard you could sit in
first class carriages on NR services up to the boundary of the zones
on your travelcard.

Not true.

By contrast, I presume a First Day Travelcard (on TOCs that do one) are
actually only valid in Standard Class except for the initial journey
into the Zones and back out. I wonder if this causes trouble...

I wonder why there is no First Class supplement for use within the
Zones? There is one in the German joint-tariff systems.

Neil

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Jack Taylor wrote:
wrote:
I seem to remember reading somewhere, possibly on this group (but now
of course I can't find it), that within zones 1-6 there was no such
thing as first class, i.e. if you had a travelcard you could sit in
first class carriages on NR services up to the boundary of the zones
on your travelcard.

Not true.


I'm assuming this is no longer the case, as the announcer on my
regular morning train from Waterloo to Feltham is always very
emphatic that passengers sitting in the first class area must have a
valid first class ticket.

Was it ever the case, or have I completely made this up in my mind?

You're possibly getting confused with the fact that SWT have often used
stock with first class accommodation on the Windsor lines on services
advertised as standard class only and it *may* (at the discretion of the
guard - although always, in practise, on class 450s by means of a PIS
message) be declassified on some services.


People are still a bit squeamish about using first class on the 450s,
even though there wouldn't be such a thing as first class on some whole
routes they run on at the moment, let alone services. So it's often
emptier. But when I get an empty train, I prefer the standard class
because the window alignment is actually better than in first class
(that is, it's bad in first class). Also, in first class, the plug
sockets stop me resting my foot on the heater.

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

MIG wrote:
Jack Taylor wrote:

You're possibly getting confused with the fact that SWT have often
used stock with first class accommodation on the Windsor lines on
services advertised as standard class only and it *may* (at the
discretion of the guard - although always, in practise, on class
450s by means of a PIS message) be declassified on some services.

I assume you meant some *other* services, since if the Windsor services
are advertised as standard class only, then surely the guard has no
discretion. Stopping services on the Hounslow loop are all advertised
as standard class only, and run with 450s, but I've never heard an
announcement about the firsts being declassified (if that's what you
mean by a "PIS message").

People are still a bit squeamish about using first class on the
450s, even though there wouldn't be such a thing as first class on
some whole routes they run on at the moment, let alone services.

Not surprising, since there's no guidance on the subject. If you get on
a Waterloo train at Feltham, the firsts may or may not be declassified
depending where it's come from.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

In article .com,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

First Day Travelcard (on TOCs that do one)

First Capital Connect?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Richard J. wrote:
MIG wrote:
Jack Taylor wrote:

You're possibly getting confused with the fact that SWT have often
used stock with first class accommodation on the Windsor lines on
services advertised as standard class only and it *may* (at the
discretion of the guard - although always, in practise, on class
450s by means of a PIS message) be declassified on some services.

I assume you meant some *other* services, since if the Windsor services
are advertised as standard class only, then surely the guard has no
discretion. Stopping services on the Hounslow loop are all advertised
as standard class only, and run with 450s, but I've never heard an
announcement about the firsts being declassified (if that's what you
mean by a "PIS message").



I haven't heard it lately, but this (as made clear to me a few threads
ago) was announced by the voice mysteriously saying "One", while the
display said something like "All seats on this service are
declassified."

Neither of these quite give the message "anyone can sit in the first
class section".

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Neil Williams wrote:
Jack Taylor wrote:
wrote:
I seem to remember reading somewhere, possibly on this group (but now
of course I can't find it), that within zones 1-6 there was no such
thing as first class, i.e. if you had a travelcard you could sit in
first class carriages on NR services up to the boundary of the zones
on your travelcard.

Not true.

By contrast, I presume a First Day Travelcard (on TOCs that do one) are
actually only valid in Standard Class except for the initial journey
into the Zones and back out. I wonder if this causes trouble...

What is your source for that? Are you saying that if someone wanted to
make a day-trip from, say, Cambridge to East Croydon via King's Cross
Thameslink and travel first class all the way they couldn't use a first
class peak travelcard but would have to buy two separate first class
day returns?

PaulO

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

First Class has become a peculiar anomaly the FGW trains I take from
Ealing Broadway most days: it's really Third Class. What seems to
happen is that nobody appears to actually pay for and travel in First
Class, which is usually entirely populated by drunks and/or the most
aggressive looking kids - essentially people who the conductors won't
touch. It is always the filthiest and smelliest section on the train.

It seems that the bigger seats are reserved for those who are most
confident in telling any staff to f*** off rather than anybody who pays
for it. To be fair to the conductors, I have occasionally seen them
attempt to move people on from First Class (a couple of times, I have
even seen people complaining) but never successfully.

Jase


wrote:
I seem to remember reading somewhere, possibly on this group (but now
of course I can't find it), that within zones 1-6 there was no such
thing as first class, i.e. if you had a travelcard you could sit in
first class carriages on NR services up to the boundary of the zones
on your travelcard.

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Paul Oter wrote:

What is your source for that? Are you saying that if someone wanted to
make a day-trip from, say, Cambridge to East Croydon via King's Cross
Thameslink and travel first class all the way they couldn't use a first
class peak travelcard but would have to buy two separate first class
day returns?

Wouldn't surprise me. I don't believe there is such a thing as a First
Class 1-6 Travelcard.

Neil

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Neil Williams wrote:
Paul Oter wrote:

What is your source for that? Are you saying that if someone wanted to
make a day-trip from, say, Cambridge to East Croydon via King's Cross
Thameslink and travel first class all the way they couldn't use a first
class peak travelcard but would have to buy two separate first class
day returns?

Wouldn't surprise me. I don't believe there is such a thing as a First
Class 1-6 Travelcard.

You already said that. What is the source of your "belief"?

Section K of the National Fares Manuals (page K1.2) explains how to
calculate prices for First ClassTravelcard season tickets for travel
within various combinations of zones including zones 1-6 and even zone
1 only.

So there *is* such a thing as a First Class 1-6 Travelcard, at least
for 7 day seasons and longer.

PaulO

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Paul Oter wrote:

Section K of the National Fares Manuals (page K1.2) explains how to
calculate prices for First ClassTravelcard season tickets for travel
within various combinations of zones including zones 1-6 and even zone
1 only.

So there *is* such a thing as a First Class 1-6 Travelcard, at least
for 7 day seasons and longer.

I have read it, and stand corrected. Given, however, that a First
Class ODTC is a TOC-specific (Thameslink) product - I think it's only
them - I'm not sure how it applies to that.

Has anyone else spotted the mistake in the example for excess fares
calculation? The outboundary-to-outboundary one (somewhere to St
Albans) is wrong; it suggests a ticket from Boundary Zone 3 when the
correct ticket would be from Boundary Zone 5.

--quote--
Example:
A holder of a Zone R345 Period Travelcard wants to travel from
Purley to St. Albans.
Issue two excess tickets -
1. A point-to-point from the cheapest Boundary Zone 3 station
on line of route (Streatham) to cover travel across London
to Cricklewood (remember to set the cross-London marker).
Take the fare from Section C, and
2. a ticket from Boundary Zone 3 to St. Albans, taking the fare
from K3.
First check that this combined fare is cheaper than the
point-to-point fare from Streatham to St. Albans.
--end quote--

Neil

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
oups.com...
Paul Oter wrote:

Section K of the National Fares Manuals (page K1.2) explains how to
calculate prices for First ClassTravelcard season tickets for travel
within various combinations of zones including zones 1-6 and even zone
1 only.

So there *is* such a thing as a First Class 1-6 Travelcard, at least
for 7 day seasons and longer.

I have read it, and stand corrected. Given, however, that a First
Class ODTC is a TOC-specific (Thameslink) product - I think it's only
them - I'm not sure how it applies to that.

Has anyone else spotted the mistake in the example for excess fares
calculation? The outboundary-to-outboundary one (somewhere to St
Albans) is wrong; it suggests a ticket from Boundary Zone 3 when the
correct ticket would be from Boundary Zone 5.

--quote--
Example:
A holder of a Zone R345 Period Travelcard wants to travel from
Purley to St. Albans.
Issue two excess tickets -
1. A point-to-point from the cheapest Boundary Zone 3 station
on line of route (Streatham) to cover travel across London
to Cricklewood (remember to set the cross-London marker).
Take the fare from Section C, and
2. a ticket from Boundary Zone 3 to St. Albans, taking the fare
from K3.
First check that this combined fare is cheaper than the
point-to-point fare from Streatham to St. Albans.
--end quote--

There are actually two more mistakes in that example! Purley is in zone 6 so
another ticket would be needed Purley - South Croydon. Secondly I am not
sure where Streatham comes from as the zone 3-5 travelcard would be valid as
far as Herne Hill.

Peter Smyth

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Neil Williams wrote:
Paul Oter wrote:

Section K of the National Fares Manuals (page K1.2) explains how to
calculate prices for First ClassTravelcard season tickets for travel
within various combinations of zones including zones 1-6 and even zone
1 only.

So there *is* such a thing as a First Class 1-6 Travelcard, at least
for 7 day seasons and longer.

I have read it, and stand corrected. Given, however, that a First
Class ODTC is a TOC-specific (Thameslink) product - I think it's only
them - I'm not sure how it applies to that.

In what sense is it TOC-specific? Day Travelcards from Cambridge to KX
aren't TOC-specific.

PaulO

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

I have read it, and stand corrected. Given, however, that a First
Class ODTC is a TOC-specific (Thameslink) product - I think it's only
them - I'm not sure how it applies to that.

In what sense is it TOC-specific? Day Travelcards from Cambridge to KX
aren't TOC-specific.


The Thameslink First Class one-day travelcard (I don't know if it is still
available)
used to be valid on Thameslink only (i.e. not Midland Mainline).
It was the same price as the standard class ODTC, which was valid on any
train.

Thameslink first class isn't really worth the bother, even for no extra
fare,
and you were unable to use the faster trains.

--
Peter

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

Paul Oter wrote:

In what sense is it TOC-specific? Day Travelcards from Cambridge to KX
aren't TOC-specific.

If it still exists (and it's not on the FCC site so maybe it doesn't),
I'm fairly sure it is/was routed THAMESLINK. That makes it
TOC-specific. Thameslink were the only TOC I am aware of that had such
a product (an outboundary First Class ODTC), and I have not heard of
another since.

Similarly, a Standard Class ODTC from Milton Keynes (like the one I
used today) can either be routed Any Permitted, or for less money
SILVERLINK ONLY. The former isn't TOC-specific (as far as BZ6), the
latter is.

Neil

First Class within Zones 1-6
 

In article ,
Jack Taylor wrote:
wrote:
I seem to remember reading somewhere, possibly on this group (but now
of course I can't find it), that within zones 1-6 there was no such
thing as first class, i.e. if you had a travelcard you could sit in
first class carriages on NR services up to the boundary of the zones
on your travelcard.

Not true.


I'm assuming this is no longer the case, as the announcer on my
regular morning train from Waterloo to Feltham is always very
emphatic that passengers sitting in the first class area must have a
valid first class ticket.

Was it ever the case, or have I completely made this up in my mind?

You're possibly getting confused with the fact that SWT have often used
stock with first class accommodation on the Windsor lines on services
advertised as standard class only and it *may* (at the discretion of the
guard - although always, in practise, on class 450s by means of a PIS
message) be declassified on some services.

And today on the Reading service arriving at about 12:45, they had a 4
car train instead of an 8 car train and they were just letting anyone
sit in FC without charging them extra because the train was so full.