[crossposted to uk.transport.london - originally posted to uk.railway]

Andrew Wilson wrote:

I have TfL'd, Googled and Jeevesed for the following answers but they were
not forthcoming.
Could someone please tell me how much the discount is using a Disabled
Railcard on an all zones one day travel card for a Sunday. I have read a
third off but a minimum fare? applies and I can't find the actual price.
To qualify for the discount do I need to buy the travel card from national
rail, underground booking office or would they both sell me the discounted
ticket.
Many Thanks
aw56001


Quick answer - £4.80 for all zones, best to buy it from a National
Rail station if possible.

Longer answer - A Disabled Persons Railcard (DPRC) entitles you to a
discounted off-peak one day Travelcard at the price of £4.80. You can
buy an off-peak ODTC from 0930 onwards on weekdays and at anytime on
weekends and public holidays.

£4.80 is the 'minimum fare' for ODTCs purchased with any type of
railcard - you won't find this on the DPRC website or anywhere else
particularly easily - but you can find it on page F4 of section F of
the National Fares Manual (NFM) [1].

(Just for the record for holders of other types of railcards there are
further restrictions in force regarding minimum fares and the time and
day of the week - but no such restrictions apply for DPRC discounted
ODTCs.)

From what I've read on this newsgroup and on uk.transport.london people
have encountered difficulties with getting Underground ticket offices
to issue them with a railcard discounted ODTCs. Indeed some of the
railcard publicity states they can only be bought from a National Rail
station - this appears to be wrong, as some have managed it, but others
have had trouble. My quick inspection of the NFM reveals a stony
silence on the issue. You could always try I guess, but you might not
succeed.

Lastly just to agree that the online information about this is rubbish.
The DPRC website isn't helpful - in fact it has a glaring error on one
of it's pages. On the "Using the Card" page [2] it states that you can
get reductions on *Peak* Day Travelcards - this is wrong. Railcards
currently only offer discounts on off-peak ODTCs (this may change in
the future, but it hasn't happened yet).


[1] http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM/sectionf.pdf

[2] http://www.disabledpersons-railcard....sing/using.htm

Many thanks for this.
I do recall buying a ODTC some years ago with a Disabled Railcard and
finding that the discount was only 50p - obviously this has changed since
then. I also remember trying to get the discount at an LU ticket office and
was told that the discount didn't exist. I also wondered why the discounted
ODTC wasn't mentioned in the Disabled Railcard booklet only *Peak* Day
Travelcards which you mention. Does Ken not want us to know that a discount
exists for railcard holders?
aw56001
"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
[crossposted to uk.transport.london - originally posted to uk.railway]

Andrew Wilson wrote:

I have TfL'd, Googled and Jeevesed for the following answers but they were
not forthcoming.
Could someone please tell me how much the discount is using a Disabled
Railcard on an all zones one day travel card for a Sunday. I have read a
third off but a minimum fare? applies and I can't find the actual price.
To qualify for the discount do I need to buy the travel card from national
rail, underground booking office or would they both sell me the discounted
ticket.
Many Thanks
aw56001


Quick answer - £4.80 for all zones, best to buy it from a National
Rail station if possible.

Longer answer - A Disabled Persons Railcard (DPRC) entitles you to a
discounted off-peak one day Travelcard at the price of £4.80. You can
buy an off-peak ODTC from 0930 onwards on weekdays and at anytime on
weekends and public holidays.

£4.80 is the 'minimum fare' for ODTCs purchased with any type of
railcard - you won't find this on the DPRC website or anywhere else
particularly easily - but you can find it on page F4 of section F of
the National Fares Manual (NFM) [1].

(Just for the record for holders of other types of railcards there are
further restrictions in force regarding minimum fares and the time and
day of the week - but no such restrictions apply for DPRC discounted
ODTCs.)

From what I've read on this newsgroup and on uk.transport.london people
have encountered difficulties with getting Underground ticket offices
to issue them with a railcard discounted ODTCs. Indeed some of the
railcard publicity states they can only be bought from a National Rail
station - this appears to be wrong, as some have managed it, but others
have had trouble. My quick inspection of the NFM reveals a stony
silence on the issue. You could always try I guess, but you might not
succeed.

Lastly just to agree that the online information about this is rubbish.
The DPRC website isn't helpful - in fact it has a glaring error on one
of it's pages. On the "Using the Card" page [2] it states that you can
get reductions on *Peak* Day Travelcards - this is wrong. Railcards
currently only offer discounts on off-peak ODTCs (this may change in
the future, but it hasn't happened yet).


[1] http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM/sectionf.pdf

[2] http://www.disabledpersons-railcard....sing/using.htm

"Andrew Wilson" wrote in message
...
Many thanks for this.
I do recall buying a ODTC some years ago with a Disabled Railcard and
finding that the discount was only 50p - obviously this has changed since
then. I also remember trying to get the discount at an LU ticket office
and
was told that the discount didn't exist. I also wondered why the
discounted
ODTC wasn't mentioned in the Disabled Railcard booklet only *Peak* Day
Travelcards which you mention. Does Ken not want us to know that a
discount
exists for railcard holders?

More likely TfL can't get their heads around the travel needs of people who
don't live in Greater London - London residents who qualify for a Disabled
Railcard are likely to have a Freedom Pass, so don't need to purchase ODTCs,
or any other tickets within Greater London (except on National Rail before
0930 Mondays to Fridays).
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick.../index.shtml#2

Peter.

Andrew Wilson wrote:

Many thanks for this.
I do recall buying a ODTC some years ago with a Disabled Railcard and
finding that the discount was only 50p - obviously this has changed since
then. I also remember trying to get the discount at an LU ticket office and
was told that the discount didn't exist. I also wondered why the discounted
ODTC wasn't mentioned in the Disabled Railcard booklet only *Peak* Day
Travelcards which you mention. Does Ken not want us to know that a discount
exists for railcard holders?


The discount is really dependent upon what ODTC you would have bought
otherwise - i.e. how many zones. Below are the current (2006) off-peak
ODTC prices, along with the saving possible if one buys a
railcard-discounted ODTC at the price of £4.80.

Zones 1&2 - £4.90 (10p cheaper with railcard)
Zones 1-4 - £5.40 (60p cheaper with railcard)
Zones 1-6 - £6.30 (£1.50 cheaper with railcard)

Zones 2-6 - £4.30 (50p more expensive than railcard discounted ODTC)

Even when compared to a full price all zones ODTC you still don't get
the normal 1/3 discount, nor do I think this has ever been the case.

Interestingly in 2005 the zones 1&2 ODTC cost £4.70, but the 'minimum
fare' for railcard-discounted ODTCs was the same as now, i.e. £4.80.
I'm not sure why this minimum fare has not risen along with the ODTC
fare rises, but it works out slightly more advantageously for railcard
holders so I don't think anyone should complain!

Neither Ken nor TfL are responsible for the inaccuracies of the
Disabled Persons Railcard publicity - this is solely a mess created by
ATOC [1] who administer the railcard schemes.

Neither TfL not it's predecessors have ever publicised
railcard-discounted ODTCs, and no-one quite seems sure on the policy of
Underground stations towards selling them. See my reply to Peter for
more on this.


[1] The Association of Train Operating Companies

Peter Masson wrote:

"Andrew Wilson" wrote in message
...
Many thanks for this.
I do recall buying a ODTC some years ago with a Disabled Railcard and
finding that the discount was only 50p - obviously this has changed since
then. I also remember trying to get the discount at an LU ticket office
and
was told that the discount didn't exist. I also wondered why the
discounted
ODTC wasn't mentioned in the Disabled Railcard booklet only *Peak* Day
Travelcards which you mention. Does Ken not want us to know that a
discount
exists for railcard holders?

More likely TfL can't get their heads around the travel needs of people who
don't live in Greater London - London residents who qualify for a Disabled
Railcard are likely to have a Freedom Pass, so don't need to purchase ODTCs,
or any other tickets within Greater London (except on National Rail before
0930 Mondays to Fridays).
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...m/index.shtml#


Whilst you may have a point about TfL's approach to those who live
outside Greater London, when looking at railcard-discounted ODTCs we're
not just looking at those who hold a Disabled Persons Railcard, or
indeed a Senior Citizens Railcard, who - if they were London residents
- would be eligable for Freedom Passes.

YP Railcards, Family Railcards and Network Railcards also all allow the
purchase of discounted ODTCs. The Railcard websites [1] and leaflets
all state that "you cannot use your [...] railcard to obtain a discount
when purchasing tickets from a London Underground booking office" (see
[2]) - i.e. the only place you can buy a railcard-discounted ODTC is
from a National Rail station.

But this goes against the experience of many people - see in particular
this June 2005 thread on uk.transport.london [3] where many
contributors said they'd had no problem buying discounted tickets from
LU stations. I've heard that others have had problems, so I wonder is
it just a sub-set of LU stations where this is possible, or is it
(perhaps more likely) a sub-set of LU booking office staff who are
aware they can issue railcard discounted ODTCs?


[1] http://www.railcard.co.uk/

[2] http://www.youngpersons-railcard.co.uk/faq.htm#15
(An identical FAQ answer is on each of the different Railcard websites)

[3]
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....c2cc172dc479cc
or
http://tinyurl.com/oposx

On 17 Jul 2006 05:40:27 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

The discount is really dependent upon what ODTC you would have bought
otherwise - i.e. how many zones. Below are the current (2006) off-peak
ODTC prices, along with the saving possible if one buys a
railcard-discounted ODTC at the price of £4.80.

Zones 1&2 - £4.90 (10p cheaper with railcard)
Zones 1-4 - £5.40 (60p cheaper with railcard)
Zones 1-6 - £6.30 (£1.50 cheaper with railcard)

Zones 2-6 - £4.30 (50p more expensive than railcard discounted ODTC)

Even when compared to a full price all zones ODTC you still don't get
the normal 1/3 discount, nor do I think this has ever been the case.

Also, if you buy the railcard discounted ODTC from a Tube ticket
office, you actually get a Zones 1-D Travelcard (normally £7.40),
saving £2.60 (pretty much a 1/3 discount).

(If you buy it from an NR ticket office or machine, you just get a
plain old Z1-6.)

"Mizter T" wrote

YP Railcards, Family Railcards and Network Railcards also all allow the
purchase of discounted ODTCs. The Railcard websites [1] and leaflets
all state that "you cannot use your [...] railcard to obtain a discount
when purchasing tickets from a London Underground booking office" (see
[2]) - i.e. the only place you can buy a railcard-discounted ODTC is
from a National Rail station.

But this goes against the experience of many people - see in particular
this June 2005 thread on uk.transport.london [3] where many
contributors said they'd had no problem buying discounted tickets from
LU stations. I've heard that others have had problems, so I wonder is
it just a sub-set of LU stations where this is possible, or is it
(perhaps more likely) a sub-set of LU booking office staff who are
aware they can issue railcard discounted ODTCs?

The TfL Fares and Tickets leaflet
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...006.pdf#page=1
states (at p33 - p17 of the pdf file) 'Reduced price Off-Peak Day
Travelcards are also available from Tube station ticket offices.' However
the leaflet appears to imply that these are only available with Gold Cards
(i.e. for Annual Season Ticket Holders). Careful reading suggests that any
Network Card will do, but the leaflet is silent about other railcards.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

The TfL Fares and Tickets leaflet
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...006.pdf#page=1
states (at p33 - p17 of the pdf file) 'Reduced price Off-Peak Day
Travelcards are also available from Tube station ticket offices.' However
the leaflet appears to imply that these are only available with Gold Cards
(i.e. for Annual Season Ticket Holders). Careful reading suggests that any
Network Card will do, but the leaflet is silent about other railcards.


There's quite a lot of reading between the lines needed, thats for
sure!

As you imply, the section from which that is taken concerns Gold Cards
(annual Travelcards), so it doesn't directly address the railcard
holder who's after information on whether LU will sell them a reduced
price ODTC.

The section avoids any mention of non-Travelcard Gold Cards - i.e.
point-to-point National Rail annual season tickets, which are also
eligable for reduced price ODTCs.

The worst thing about that section is it doesn't clearly state that
tickets bought for several people with a Gold Card means that all of
those people should travel together at all times. In practice on LU and
London Buses I suspect this isn't really enforced very well, but it
would be on NR.

Mizter T wrote:
asdf wrote:

Also, if you buy the railcard discounted ODTC from a Tube ticket
office, you actually get a Zones 1-D Travelcard (normally £7.40),
saving £2.60 (pretty much a 1/3 discount).

(If you buy it from an NR ticket office or machine, you just get a
plain old Z1-6.)


Useful to know - though it is rather an odd situation. By what logic
does LU decide chuck zones A-D in as well?!


I seem to recall that the logic was that the price of a reduced Zone
1-D ODTC was the same (or slightly less) than the minimum railcard
fare, so the underground ticketing system threw the extra zones in for
free. I'd have to check the prices to see if this is still the case
though.

I think that the reason that National Rail doesn't sell Zones A-D, was
that they were an added extra for the Metropolitan (and Central in the
past) line and didn't cover any national rail stations (remember that
Moor Park - Watford/Amersham have fares set by LUL)

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:29:55 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

SNIPPED

Useful to know - though it is rather an odd situation. By what logic
does LU decide chuck zones A-D in as well?!

Is it even possible to buy a Zones 1-D Travelcard from a NR ticket
office (whether railcard-discounted or not) - or indeed from a
newsagent?

Section K of the NFM [1] suggests this is all possible, but I'm not
sure how I'd fancy my luck in getting a 1-D Travelcard from the ticket
office of say Lewisham or even Maidstone station.

Bizarrely it seems the NFM refers to the outboundary Met Line stations
both by their specific names and also uses the term(s) Outer
Underground zones 7 to 10, instead of using zones A-D (see page K2.3).
Is confurion purposefully designed into the ticketing system?!


[1] http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM/sectionk.pdf

It's interesting to read that in the fares manual.

I go from Bromley to Amersham on a semi-regular basis. The first time I
went, Bromley station (zone 5) told me that they could not issue 1-D
travelcards. They could only sell me a standard day return for
£18.80(!)[1] - compare with £7.40 for a 1-D travelcard. The National Rail
website also offers a cheap day return at £17.00 (I was travelling off
peak). I also tried a ticket agent who was much more helpful than the
station but who also was not able to sell me the travelcard. Eventually I
bought cheap day return to London and used Oyster pre-pay from London
Bridge to Amersham. It's valid all the way, including on Chiltern Trains
services.

I wrote to TfL about this and they replied that travelcards including
zones A-D can only be issued at Underground stations, not agents or
National Rail. Apparently "low demand" is to blame. It's not very helpful
if you live in South London quite some way from an Underground station.

Does anyone know why the single and return tickets are so expensive for
this route? It's not just Bromley, similar fares apply from Croydon as
well. Even a £17 cheap day return is far more than the sum of its parts.

A

[1] Actually I first went over a year ago and don't remember the exact
prices then - these are from the National Rail website today.