Oyster NR Question
 

I've got an Oyster monthly pass, so no problem there.
My gf has an Oyster pre-pay, since she doesn't live in London.

On Saturday, we were going from Central London back to Walthamstow and
since the Victoria Line has the (almost permanent!) hiatus in the middle
at the moment, I suggested getting the One from Liverpool Street to
Walthamstow.

When we got to St James's Street, I suddenly hit upon the bright idea of
getting off there, so I could walk to Sainsbury's on the way home.

As soon as we got on the platform and off the train, I remembered that
although PrePay is valid Walthamstow to Liverpool Street, it's NOT
actually valid to or from any intermediate stations so her Prepay would
almost certainly have some problem.

In the end, she walked all the way up to Walthamstow herself and touched
out to resolve the journey.

What would have been taken off her prepay if she hadn't taken the 15
minute walk to Walthamstow to do this?

There are no readers at St James's Street and the lack of any ticket
machines that offer Oyster meant that there was no way of checking
(since the ticket office is ALWAYS either closed or has a huge queue).

Oyster NR Question
 

Dave Newt wrote:

I've got an Oyster monthly pass, so no problem there.
My gf has an Oyster pre-pay, since she doesn't live in London.

On Saturday, we were going from Central London back to Walthamstow and
since the Victoria Line has the (almost permanent!) hiatus in the middle
at the moment, I suggested getting the One from Liverpool Street to
Walthamstow.

When we got to St James's Street, I suddenly hit upon the bright idea of
getting off there, so I could walk to Sainsbury's on the way home.

As soon as we got on the platform and off the train, I remembered that
although PrePay is valid Walthamstow to Liverpool Street, it's NOT
actually valid to or from any intermediate stations so her Prepay would
almost certainly have some problem.

In the end, she walked all the way up to Walthamstow herself and touched
out to resolve the journey.

What would have been taken off her prepay if she hadn't taken the 15
minute walk to Walthamstow to do this?

There are no readers at St James's Street and the lack of any ticket
machines that offer Oyster meant that there was no way of checking
(since the ticket office is ALWAYS either closed or has a huge queue).

As she'd travelled from a terminal (i.e. Liverpool St) she'd be charged
£5 if she hadn't touched out and 'completed' her journey, so the walk
was worth it!

See the bottom of page 23 of the TfL fares guide [1] for this
explaination...

-----
Using your pay as you go on some of these services:

When you touch your Oyster card on the reader at the start of your
journey, a charge of £5.00 - the average National Rail fare paid for
a journey in Greater London from that station - will be deducted from
your balance. When you touch your Oyster card on the reader at the end
of your journey, the charge will be adjusted so that you only pay the
advertised fare for your journey.
-----

The text says "some of these services" - so far this policy only
appears to have been implemented on journey to/from mainline terminals
- there are posters at these terminals to this effect. This policy
presumably also applies when someone hasn't touched-in and only touches
out.

The reason for the policy is pretty obvious - it is intended to prevent
abuse of the Oyster system and stop fare-evaders from using Oyster
Pre-Pay to 'just get pass the gates'. Normally when someone doesn't
touch-in or out on the Tube network they only get charged the lowest
fare from that station, though of course TfL may change this in the
future to stop abuse similar to the scenario described above.

I don't dissaprove of this policy whatsoever, but I do wonder if
there's a solid legal basis for it happening. I suspect that the laws
regarding transport ticketing contain a good few holes with regards to
smartcard tickets (such as Oyster), as obviously they weren't written
with them in mind. It would take an accused person to challenge a
prosecution in court to further explore and possibly resolve any such
legal issues of course, and I don't think there's been anything of the
sort since Oyster has been introduced.


[1] TfL Fares guide - direct link to page 23 (PDF document)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...06.pdf#page=12

Oyster NR Question
 

Mizter T wrote:
Dave Newt wrote:

I've got an Oyster monthly pass, so no problem there.
My gf has an Oyster pre-pay, since she doesn't live in London.

On Saturday, we were going from Central London back to Walthamstow and
since the Victoria Line has the (almost permanent!) hiatus in the middle
at the moment, I suggested getting the One from Liverpool Street to
Walthamstow.

When we got to St James's Street, I suddenly hit upon the bright idea of
getting off there, so I could walk to Sainsbury's on the way home.

As soon as we got on the platform and off the train, I remembered that
although PrePay is valid Walthamstow to Liverpool Street, it's NOT
actually valid to or from any intermediate stations so her Prepay would
almost certainly have some problem.

In the end, she walked all the way up to Walthamstow herself and touched
out to resolve the journey.

What would have been taken off her prepay if she hadn't taken the 15
minute walk to Walthamstow to do this?

There are no readers at St James's Street and the lack of any ticket
machines that offer Oyster meant that there was no way of checking
(since the ticket office is ALWAYS either closed or has a huge queue).

As she'd travelled from a terminal (i.e. Liverpool St) she'd be charged
£5 if she hadn't touched out and 'completed' her journey, so the walk
was worth it!

Thanks - that is what I guessed from memory. Bloody stupid restriction
though - having it valid on a short line, but just random bits thereof.

Oyster NR Question
 

Dave Newt wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

As she'd travelled from a terminal (i.e. Liverpool St) she'd be charged
£5 if she hadn't touched out and 'completed' her journey, so the walk
was worth it!

Thanks - that is what I guessed from memory. Bloody stupid restriction
though - having it valid on a short line, but just random bits thereof.


V annoying, yes. Thankfully pre-pay will be valid on National Rail (NR)
all over London - but not until 2008 at the earliest [1].

It's all down to transport politicking - if TfL had waited for NR to
agree to participate in Oyster Pre-Pay, it would never have been
launched. By going ahead with Pre-Pay and making a success of it on the
Tube, TfL has forced the hand of the wary DfT into agreeing to it's
introduction.

I remember reading something on here where Paul Corfield - who famously
admits to working for LU and was involved in Oysters early days [2] -
saying that London Transport couldn't get the NR TOCs to take this
future smartcard ticket system seriously in the 90's. Though I doubt
there would've been a utopia of co-operation if LT had to have dealt
with a pre-privatisation Network Southeast given the traditional BR/LT
animosity! Perhaps I'm being too harsh.


[1]
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=776

[2] To be honest I'm not sure of what Paul does (and in the past did)
for LU, but he was involved in the Prestige project at some point. AIUI
Prestige is the name of the whole ticketing system run by TranSys for
TfL which includes Oyster smartcards.

Oyster NR Question
 

On 31 Jul 2006 17:33:40 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

I remember reading something on here where Paul Corfield - who famously
admits to working for LU

Not sure that's worthy of fame!

and was involved in Oysters early days [2] -
saying that London Transport couldn't get the NR TOCs to take this
future smartcard ticket system seriously in the 90's. Though I doubt
there would've been a utopia of co-operation if LT had to have dealt
with a pre-privatisation Network Southeast given the traditional BR/LT
animosity! Perhaps I'm being too harsh.

I was the LU Business Client for what became the Prestige Project. Both
the LU specification and NR specification were my responsibility.
Network wide gating and the outline spec for the central system were
also my areas.

[1]
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=776

[2] To be honest I'm not sure of what Paul does (and in the past did)
for LU, but he was involved in the Prestige project at some point. AIUI
Prestige is the name of the whole ticketing system run by TranSys for
TfL which includes Oyster smartcards.

I was involving in LU ticketing for about 12 years - about 5 of those on
Prestige and its earlier incarnations. Prestige is the project name and
also the contract name for the deal with Transys. Oyster is the brand
name for the card.

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster NR Question
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 31 Jul 2006 17:33:40 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

I remember reading something on here where Paul Corfield - who famously
admits to working for LU

Not sure that's worthy of fame!

and was involved in Oysters early days [2] -
saying that London Transport couldn't get the NR TOCs to take this
future smartcard ticket system seriously in the 90's. Though I doubt
there would've been a utopia of co-operation if LT had to have dealt
with a pre-privatisation Network Southeast given the traditional BR/LT
animosity! Perhaps I'm being too harsh.

I was the LU Business Client for what became the Prestige Project. Both
the LU specification and NR specification were my responsibility.
Network wide gating and the outline spec for the central system were
also my areas.

[1]
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=776

[2] To be honest I'm not sure of what Paul does (and in the past did)
for LU, but he was involved in the Prestige project at some point. AIUI
Prestige is the name of the whole ticketing system run by TranSys for
TfL which includes Oyster smartcards.

I was involving in LU ticketing for about 12 years - about 5 of those on
Prestige and its earlier incarnations. Prestige is the project name and
also the contract name for the deal with Transys. Oyster is the brand
name for the card.

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)

This has the makings of a fun game... my three guesses would be:
- Closures manager; deciding what bits of the network to lop off next
(Mill Hill East, here we come)
- Northern line catastrophe planner
- Earl's Court signalling computer (we all know that the actual computer
itself died about 20 years ago and now LU employ someone to flick
switches to light up the destination arrows manually...)

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster NR Question
 

Well it probably would not have been legal (although it should be legal,
and it will be legal soon) but what you could have done, would be for you
both to exit at St James Street (there's no barrier is there?) and then
after you do your Sainsburys shopping together, walk to your house and you
go in Walthamstow with your season ticket, and exit with her oyster (oyster
pre-pay are transferable after all). Journey resolved. OK it took 20
minutes longer than it should have done, but I bet the machines wouldn't
think that's particularly odd.

Probably unethical, but you're only doing what LUL would like you to be
able to do but don't have the technological ability to do it yet.

(queue the sound of angry UTL people saying I should be strung up and shot
for suggesting fraud).

Disclaimer: it's not what I would do - I have a season ticket. But it makes
logical sense, doesn't it?

Oyster NR Question
 

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:56:55 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 31 Jul 2006 17:33:40 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)

This has the makings of a fun game... my three guesses would be:
- Closures manager; deciding what bits of the network to lop off next
(Mill Hill East, here we come)

Nope.

- Northern line catastrophe planner

I really don't think the Northern Line needs my help on that topic.

- Earl's Court signalling computer (we all know that the actual computer
itself died about 20 years ago and now LU employ someone to flick
switches to light up the destination arrows manually...)

No, not that either.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster NR Question
 

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

This has the makings of a fun game... my three guesses would be:
- Closures manager; deciding what bits of the network to lop off next
(Mill Hill East, here we come)
- Northern line catastrophe planner
- Earl's Court signalling computer (we all know that the actual
computer itself died about 20 years ago and now LU employ someone to
flick switches to light up the destination arrows manually...)

^^^^^^^^
I think you misspelt 'randomly' :)
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Oyster NR Question
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:56:55 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 31 Jul 2006 17:33:40 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)
This has the makings of a fun game... my three guesses would be:
- Closures manager; deciding what bits of the network to lop off next
(Mill Hill East, here we come)

Nope.

- Northern line catastrophe planner

I really don't think the Northern Line needs my help on that topic.

- Earl's Court signalling computer (we all know that the actual computer
itself died about 20 years ago and now LU employ someone to flick
switches to light up the destination arrows manually...)

No, not that either.

I'd guess something that begins with an "R" and has "evenue" in there
somewhere :-)

Oyster NR Question
 

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
This has the makings of a fun game...
It does, doesn't it?

Snip
While mine would be:
Automated announcements voice on Crossrail.

Olympic Transport Infrastructure (Delays) Manager

Busker Booker
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Oyster NR Question
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)

You work for Mr Mitchell don't you?

Oyster NR Question
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)

Shouldn't that read "even more" before death threats?

;-)

Oyster NR Question
 

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 23:05:37 +0100, Dave Newt
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:56:55 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 31 Jul 2006 17:33:40 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)
This has the makings of a fun game... my three guesses would be:
- Closures manager; deciding what bits of the network to lop off next
(Mill Hill East, here we come)

Nope.

- Northern line catastrophe planner

I really don't think the Northern Line needs my help on that topic.

- Earl's Court signalling computer (we all know that the actual computer
itself died about 20 years ago and now LU employ someone to flick
switches to light up the destination arrows manually...)

No, not that either.

I'd guess something that begins with an "R" and has "evenue" in there
somewhere :-)

Old job titles did - current one doesn't.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster NR Question
 

On 2 Aug 2006 05:49:15 -0700, "Paul Weaver" wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)

You work for Mr Mitchell don't you?

" "
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster NR Question
 

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 23:33:40 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
This has the makings of a fun game...
It does, doesn't it?

Snip
While mine would be:
Automated announcements voice on Crossrail.

I shall probably be retired before that job is advertised.

Olympic Transport Infrastructure (Delays) Manager

Well I am supposed to have the Olympics as part of my overall portfolio.

Busker Booker

Ahem!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster NR Question
 

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Dave Arquati wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 31 Jul 2006 17:33:40 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

I remember reading something on here where Paul Corfield - who famously
admits to working for LU

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)

- Earl's Court signalling computer (we all know that the actual computer
itself died about 20 years ago and now LU employ someone to flick
switches to light up the destination arrows manually...)

No, that's not done by a human - one of the lower simians, i think.
Although as part of their programme of upgrades, Metronet are going to
replace it with a speak-and-spell.

tom

--
For the first few years I ate lunch with he mathematicians. I soon found
that they were more interested in fun and games than in serious work,
so I shifted to eating with the physics table. There I stayed for a
number of years until the Nobel Prize, promotions, and offers from
other companies, removed most of the interesting people. So I shifted
to the corresponding chemistry table where I had a friend. At first I
asked what were the important problems in chemistry, then what important
problems they were working on, or problems that might lead to important
results. One day I asked, "if what they were working on was not important,
and was not likely to lead to important things, they why were they working
on them?" After that I had to eat with the engineers! -- R. W. Hamming

Oyster NR Question
 

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
Well I am supposed to have the Olympics as part of my overall
portfolio.

Well, Paul, if the Olympics area a mere *part* of your portfolio, then
you must have a *very* big portfolio indeed and I'd love to know how
many hours per week you work! :-))

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Oyster NR Question
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I was involving in LU ticketing for about 12 years - about 5 of those on
Prestige and its earlier incarnations. Prestige is the project name and
also the contract name for the deal with Transys. Oyster is the brand
name for the card.

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)

Your job title is actually available on the TfL website. Finding it is an
exercise for the interested reader.

Peter Smyth

Oyster NR Question
 

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:02:45 +0100, "Peter Smyth"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

I was involving in LU ticketing for about 12 years - about 5 of those on
Prestige and its earlier incarnations. Prestige is the project name and
also the contract name for the deal with Transys. Oyster is the brand
name for the card.

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd probably
get death threats if it was publicised :-)

Your job title is actually available on the TfL website. Finding it is an
exercise for the interested reader.

Eek! - I didn't know that.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster NR Question
 

On 05 Aug 2006 20:45:12 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Paul Corfield ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd
probably get death threats if it was publicised :-)

Your job title is actually available on the TfL website. Finding it is
an exercise for the interested reader.

Eek! - I didn't know that.

On an Org Chart an' everything...

Well you're better at searching than me because I cannot find any
reference at all.

Do I spot a new posting name being hatched?

Hardly. If it gets silly I'll simply unsubscribe.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster NR Question
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 05 Aug 2006 20:45:12 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Paul Corfield ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
I have quite deliberately not said what I do for LU today. I'd
probably get death threats if it was publicised :-)
Your job title is actually available on the TfL website. Finding it is
an exercise for the interested reader.
Eek! - I didn't know that.
On an Org Chart an' everything...

Well you're better at searching than me because I cannot find any
reference at all.

Looks like it was put up as a Freedom of Information Act thing. I'm
slightly surprised that such a thing comes under FoI (precisely because
it makes staff names available to all and sundry) but there's the
excitement of working for the public sector...

Do I spot a new posting name being hatched?

Hardly. If it gets silly I'll simply unsubscribe.



--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster NR Question
 

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 22:29:28 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

Looks like it was put up as a Freedom of Information Act thing. I'm
slightly surprised that such a thing comes under FoI (precisely because
it makes staff names available to all and sundry) but there's the
excitement of working for the public sector...

So I have since found out. I have to say I am not particularly happy
about that. What is more irksome still is that the TfL site map does
not even show the foi directory under the tube part of the overall site.

Anyway the document is already way out of date in respect of the Chief
Programmes Office.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!