Following on from the discussion about LT zones, a question that's
always bothered me. Why is Hampstead Heath station on the North London
Line in Zone 3? With Archway and Hampstead both on the 2/3 boundary,
it can't possibly be geographical - it seems there purely to bump up
the revenue from this popular station, and for east/west traffic on
the NLL. Which seems very cynical, and a bit pointless: anyone who
regularly travels on that line soon learns how shoddy it is at
actually collecting revenue.

Or am I missing something?

R

That's of course if anyone Actually buys a ticket at Willesden Junction


"Dave" wrote in message
...
Rupert Goodwins writes
Following on from the discussion about LT zones, a question that's
always bothered me. Why is Hampstead Heath station on the North London
Line in Zone 3? With Archway and Hampstead both on the 2/3 boundary, it
can't possibly be geographical - it seems there purely to bump up the
revenue from this popular station, and for east/west traffic on the
NLL. Which seems very cynical, and a bit pointless: anyone who
regularly travels on that line soon learns how shoddy it is at actually
collecting revenue.

Or am I missing something?

You're probably right.

I do remember that Willesden Junction was moved from being a Z2/Z3
boundary station to being Z3 only. This was done around the time that
BR was being privatised and presumably an attempt by the franchise to
increase its revenue before being sold-off. (It came to my attention as
the change was highlighted on Bakerloo line maps.) This meant that you
could no longer do a long journey on the NLL with just a Z2 ticket.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same happened at Hampstead Heath.

--
Dave

In article , Dave
writes
I do remember that Willesden Junction was moved from being a Z2/Z3
boundary station to being Z3 only.
[...]
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same happened at Hampstead Heath.

This is right.

Before the changes, you could go almost right round the North London
Line on a Z2-only ticket. This is much further than "typical" journeys
on such a ticket. A decision was made to bring such long journeys up to
more typical prices by placing some stations in Z3.

Anyone travelling a long way around now needs a Z2/3 ticket. Those
travelling along short segments can still do it with a single-zone
ticket; there should still be "short journey" tickets for those going
one or two stops that happen to cross a boundary.

Is this really unfair? I don't think so.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
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On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:03:25 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

In article , Dave
writes
I do remember that Willesden Junction was moved from being a Z2/Z3
boundary station to being Z3 only.
[...]
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same happened at Hampstead Heath.

This is right.

Before the changes, you could go almost right round the North London
Line on a Z2-only ticket. This is much further than "typical" journeys
on such a ticket. A decision was made to bring such long journeys up to
more typical prices by placing some stations in Z3.

Anyone travelling a long way around now needs a Z2/3 ticket. Those
travelling along short segments can still do it with a single-zone
ticket; there should still be "short journey" tickets for those going
one or two stops that happen to cross a boundary.

Is this really unfair? I don't think so.

It certainly seems daft to someone who lives in Holloway and has a Z12
Travelcard that there's this one island in the middle of my locale
where if I forget to buy an extension I'm at risk of a penalty fare --
and if I go there by any other public transport, there's no problem.

It breaks the spirit and the practicality of the zone system,
especially for Travelcard holders. I don't know how the Travelcard
system allocates revenues among the various companies, but if the NLL
feels hard done by through the masses of commuters shuttling from
South Acton to Hackney Wick surely it should be addressed there?

R

That's of course if anyone Actually buys a ticket at Willesden Junction


Erm. How else would they get on a train?

Anyone travelling a long way around now needs a Z2/3 ticket. Those
travelling along short segments can still do it with a single-zone
ticket; there should still be "short journey" tickets for those going
one or two stops that happen to cross a boundary.

Is this really unfair? I don't think so.

Unless of course, Hampstead Heath happens to be your local station. I
really don't understand why I should have to pay a 2 zone ticket to go
one stop either way out of the station, when if I walked about 500
yards away from Central London I would still be in Zone 2.

I think people would be more tolerant of giving Silverlink money if
the service was in any way reasonable. I use that line about once a
fortnight and it's fair to say that it is never on time or even close
(a 10 minute delay is considered good going). I spoke to a friend of a
friend recently who lives in Stratford and works in Richmond but
prefers paying the extra to go through Z1 using Jubilee/SWT route even
though by schedule, it should be about 20 mins longer.

In article , Jase
writes
Unless of course, Hampstead Heath happens to be your local station. I
really don't understand why I should have to pay a 2 zone ticket to go
one stop either way out of the station,

Aren't there local fares? Most journeys of one or two stops (outside
zone 1) have a special lower fare if they cross a zone boundary. If not,
that's the problem, not that it's in another zone.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:31:58 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

In article , Rupert Goodwins
writes
It certainly seems daft to someone who lives in Holloway and has a Z12
Travelcard that there's this one island in the middle of my locale
where if I forget to buy an extension I'm at risk of a penalty fare --
and if I go there by any other public transport, there's no problem.

I don't follow this.

If you have a Z1/2 travelcard, there are a set of rail lines you can
travel on, forming a closed area around Central London and a set you
can't. Where's the island.


I can go up to Hampstead on the Northern Line, or to Archway. both
north of Hampstead Heath. In fact, I can get to stations by rail
north, south, east and west of Hampstead Heath, but not to Hampstead
Heath itself. Looks like an island to me. If the zoning system isn't
based on geography, what is it it based on?


As for other public transport, you can go anywhere on buses. So what?

If you mean "I can get to station X via route A-B-C but not route D-E-F"
then, again, so what? With a Z1-4 you can take the long routes from
Northwick Park to Sudbury Hill (both zone 4) via Central London or via
the NLL, but not the much shorter route via Rayners Lane.

Zones is zones.

If you mean 'a zone is anything that London Transport says it is',
then yes, zones is zones. But if you look at the map, then zones is a
pattern of concentric fare stages, where local travel is at a fixed
low rate but travel into or away from the centre costs more. It's a
great idea: it simplifies the fare system and reflects the way a lot
of people live and work in London.

Hampstead Heath is a tweak. A hack. Every station around it is in zone
two, no matter what direction you go in or how you go there. Aside
from Willesden Junction, also on the NLL, every other station on the
network connects either with stations in its own zone or in a
subsequent zone.

It breaks the spirit and the practicality of the zone system,

Rubbish.

Well, by that argument you might as well run a zone boundary pseudopod
down to Kings Cross and move it into zone two. That'd make tfl a lot
more dosh. In fact, why not just do away with the zones and charge all
journeys according to length?

R

Well, by that argument you might as well run a zone boundary pseudopod
down to Kings Cross and move it into zone two. That'd make tfl a lot
more dosh. In fact, why not just do away with the zones and charge all
journeys according to length?

no, just move Oxford Circus into zone 5 so you'll need a 1-5 ticket to
use that station.

In article , Rupert Goodwins
writes
If you have a Z1/2 travelcard, there are a set of rail lines you can
travel on, forming a closed area around Central London and a set you
can't. Where's the island.

I can go up to Hampstead on the Northern Line, or to Archway. both
north of Hampstead Heath.

Hampstead and Archway are on the Z2/3 boundary.

Archway is north-east, not north.

In fact, I can get to stations by rail
north, south, east and west of Hampstead Heath,

There's no station north of Hampstead Heath in zone 2.

If you mean 'a zone is anything that London Transport says it is',
then yes, zones is zones. But if you look at the map, then zones is a
pattern of concentric fare stages,

Right. But they aren't completely convex.

Hampstead Heath is a tweak. A hack. Every station around it is in zone
two, no matter what direction you go in or how you go there.

Not true. You can draw a reasonable-looking boundary between zones 2 and
3 with no odd loops or "islands".

Aside
from Willesden Junction, also on the NLL, every other station on the
network connects either with stations in its own zone or in a
subsequent zone.

Huh? I don't get what you're saying here. There are other stations with
no neighbours in the same zone. If you mean that they're the only
stations whose neighbours are both in the same zone different from that
station, then this might be right (what about Acton Central, though?).
But that's because it's orbital, not radial, and close to a zonal
boundary.

It breaks the spirit and the practicality of the zone system,
Rubbish.
Well, by that argument you might as well run a zone boundary pseudopod
down to Kings Cross and move it into zone two.

You could, but it's been chosen not to.

Zone 1 got extended south of the river by quite a way; it used not to
be. What about all the Z2-4 users who lost out by that change?

The principle that *is* being applied is to not allow long runs in a
single zone. I can find exactly two places on LU outside Z1 where you
can go 6 stops within one zone (that is, if you get on at station number
1 with a single-zone ticket, you can take a single train to station 7
and be able to exit with that ticket). The NLL zone 2 section was 17
stops long; after the changes the pieces in zone 2 are 0, 4, and 9 stops
long. You can do 8 stops on GOBLIN, and that's it.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
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