Morning all,

The discussion of the Northern line got me looking at the Cross-River
Transit proposals again. If this works, i think it'd be excellent, but i
have to admit i'm skeptical about the practicality of an on-street system
along some of London's busiest roads.

But, looking at this map:

http://www.crossriverpartnership.org...ge=1236&id=586

I wonder:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do this
without getting fouled up in traffic?

Why does the King's Cross branch go the wrong way?

Why does the Brixton branch go via Lambeth North rather than Elephant?

Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston, and isn't Albert
Square on the District line, not down south?

tom

--
I have often thought that the questions which we were unable to ask and
the speeches that we never had a chance to deliver were probably the
best ones. -- John Wilkinson, MP, on Parliament

Tom Anderson wrote:

Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston,

Ack! I've already had to pull one person up this week who should have known
better - they're a graduate of the University of Durham, not Durham
University!

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston,

Ack! I've already had to pull one person up this week who should have
known better - they're a graduate of the University of Durham, not
Durham University!

One i was never able to work out was whether it's the University of Oxford
or Oxford University; its official organs seem to use the terms
interchangeably.

Having looked it up, i think the *official* name is The Chancellor,
Masters and Scholars of the University of Oxford. Snappy!

tom

--
3364147 Complete space vehicles (excluding propulsion systems)

Tom Anderson wrote:

Oh, and what is this 'London University' next to Euston,

Ack! I've already had to pull one person up this week who should have
known better - they're a graduate of the University of Durham, not Durham
University!

One i was never able to work out was whether it's the University of Oxford
or Oxford University; its official organs seem to use the terms
interchangeably.

Having looked it up, i think the *official* name is The Chancellor,
Masters and Scholars of the University of Oxford. Snappy!

The current logo says "University of Oxford" and the frontpage of the
website seems pretty clear, although some other pages aren't. The crest also
uses "University of Oxford".

The Wikipedia articles on UK universities are nearly all listed at the
current "brand name", rather than what the statutes et al use, so if there's
doubt look there.

I wonder:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do this
without getting fouled up in traffic?

Why does the King's Cross branch go the wrong way?

Why does the Brixton branch go via Lambeth North rather than Elephant?


The King's Cross branch arrives from the North in order not to foul up
the Euston Road. IIRC the plans say that the crossing at Euston will
be the only place where trams won't have absolute priority over
traffic, because it would cause mayhem.

As for the Brixton branch, perhaps it will fit in better with the
remodelling of the elephant if this branch doesn't go that way. Or
perhaps it's just because via Lambeth North is the natural route that
the buses to Brixton take at the moment.

I wondered why they run via Stockwell rather than Brixton Road, though
- is it just because interchange with the Northern line would be less
convenient at Oval, or is there another reason?

brixtonite wrote:
I wonder:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do this
without getting fouled up in traffic?

Basically, near-absolute priority along the whole route. I don't think
that any section will be shared-use with general traffic at all (much of
it uses existing bus priority routes). AIUI, the only junctions where
the tram will not have priority are Holborn (heavy east-west bus
traffic) and Euston (heavy east-west car traffic). AIUI there are (or at
least were) plans to turn Camden High Street into a public transport
"boulevard", with two-way operation for buses, trams, cycles, possibly
taxis and access only for private vehicles (other private traffic would
be routed via the parallel Camden Street).

At Euston Road in particular, northbound departures from Tavistock
Square and southbound departures from Euston will be managed carefully
to fit in with the cycle time of the lights at the crossroads. I'm not
sure what the cycle time is, but if it were 60 seconds, then trams would
need to hit every other cycle quite reliably to maintain the two-minute
frequency through the core section. This is why I'm somewhat surprised
that the alternative routing to King's Cross via Judd Street did not
last longer in the planning stages.

Why does the King's Cross branch go the wrong way?

Why does the Brixton branch go via Lambeth North rather than Elephant?


The King's Cross branch arrives from the North in order not to foul up
the Euston Road. IIRC the plans say that the crossing at Euston will
be the only place where trams won't have absolute priority over
traffic, because it would cause mayhem.

The original plan was to have the King's Cross branch running through
Somers Town via Brill Place, which would have been a quick route with
minimal traffic disruption - but the local residents were strongly
against it and so the Mornington Crescent branch was born.

Another option considered early on but discarded (not sure why) was from
Tavistock Square via Tavistock Place and Judd Street into Midland Road.

Incidentally, the Mornington Crescent route is not finalised - LB Camden
would still like to see it routed along Euston Road as this is more
direct, but the practicalities are difficult - although bus lanes
already exist along that bit of road, the bus frequency is quite high
(seven routes including the very-high-frequency 73) and I'm not sure
that those lanes have the capacity to reliably carry 15tph plus some
30-40bph (at a guess).

As for the Brixton branch, perhaps it will fit in better with the
remodelling of the elephant if this branch doesn't go that way. Or
perhaps it's just because via Lambeth North is the natural route that
the buses to Brixton take at the moment.

The remodelling of the Elephant is still fairly up in the air, so it
wouldn't be difficult to incorporate the Brixton branch. However, as you
say, the Lambeth North route is already a natural bus route and I
believe it is higher-demand than Kennington Park Road (the 59/159 are
quite heavily used). Sending the Brixton branch via Elephant was an
option until quite recently.

I wondered why they run via Stockwell rather than Brixton Road, though
- is it just because interchange with the Northern line would be less
convenient at Oval, or is there another reason?

Not sure about this. Could be related to interchange at Stockwell, as
you mention (CRT may feed the Northern line and Oval might not have the
capacity for this); the capacity of bus priority along Brixton Road; or
even the ability to provide more capacity relief to the Northern and (to
a lesser extent) Victoria lines.


--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In article , (Dave
Arquati) wrote:

At Euston Road in particular, northbound departures from Tavistock
Square and southbound departures from Euston will be managed
carefully to fit in with the cycle time of the lights at the
crossroads. I'm not sure what the cycle time is, but if it were 60
seconds, then trams would need to hit every other cycle quite
reliably to maintain the two-minute frequency through the core
section. This is why I'm somewhat surprised that the alternative
routing to King's Cross via Judd Street did not last longer in the
planning stages.

Because Judd St only gets them to St Pancras and not to the Cross?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article , (Dave
Arquati) wrote:

At Euston Road in particular, northbound departures from Tavistock
Square and southbound departures from Euston will be managed
carefully to fit in with the cycle time of the lights at the
crossroads. I'm not sure what the cycle time is, but if it were 60
seconds, then trams would need to hit every other cycle quite
reliably to maintain the two-minute frequency through the core
section. This is why I'm somewhat surprised that the alternative
routing to King's Cross via Judd Street did not last longer in the
planning stages.

Because Judd St only gets them to St Pancras and not to the Cross?

Perhaps, but the alternative via Mornington Crescent will take so much
longer that someone taking a tram to Midland Road and walking over to
the Cross would easily beat someone sitting on a tram via St Pancras
Hospital.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Dave Arquati wrote:

brixtonite wrote:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do this
without getting fouled up in traffic?

Basically, near-absolute priority along the whole route.

I have a bad feeling about this. Priority is all very well on paper, but
it doesn't buy you a lot when there are buses ten deep in front of you.

Why does the King's Cross branch go the wrong way?

The King's Cross branch arrives from the North in order not to foul up
the Euston Road. IIRC the plans say that the crossing at Euston will
be the only place where trams won't have absolute priority over
traffic, because it would cause mayhem.

The original plan was to have the King's Cross branch running through
Somers Town via Brill Place, which would have been a quick route with
minimal traffic disruption - but the local residents were strongly
against it and so the Mornington Crescent branch was born.

Hmph.

Another option considered early on but discarded (not sure why) was from
Tavistock Square via Tavistock Place and Judd Street into Midland Road.

This sounds far more sensible.

Incidentally, the Mornington Crescent route is not finalised - LB Camden
would still like to see it routed along Euston Road as this is more
direct, but the practicalities are difficult - although bus lanes
already exist along that bit of road, the bus frequency is quite high
(seven routes including the very-high-frequency 73) and I'm not sure
that those lanes have the capacity to reliably carry 15tph plus some
30-40bph (at a guess).

Presumably, some of those routes could be sacrificed in favour of the tram
- the 91 duplicates the tram route, for example; the 476 could perhaps be
cut back to King's Cross, and the 390 might be able to go round the back,
via Midland Road and Goods Way.

tom

--
3364147 Complete space vehicles (excluding propulsion systems)

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Dave Arquati wrote:

brixtonite wrote:

Have they got a convincing explanation of how they're going to do
this without getting fouled up in traffic?

Basically, near-absolute priority along the whole route.

I have a bad feeling about this. Priority is all very well on paper, but
it doesn't buy you a lot when there are buses ten deep in front of you.

A problem in Manchester certainly... luckily there's a bit more control
available here. Croydon has buses stopping offline when there's a bus
and tram lane; something similar may be possible along the tram routes.
And, as you mentioned lower down, some routes will be curtailed or
diverted because they would otherwise replicate the tram. In fact,
looking at Kingsway, the majority of routes running along there would be
candidates for alteration.

Why does the King's Cross branch go the wrong way?

The King's Cross branch arrives from the North in order not to foul up
the Euston Road. IIRC the plans say that the crossing at Euston will
be the only place where trams won't have absolute priority over
traffic, because it would cause mayhem.

The original plan was to have the King's Cross branch running through
Somers Town via Brill Place, which would have been a quick route with
minimal traffic disruption - but the local residents were strongly
against it and so the Mornington Crescent branch was born.

Hmph.

Another option considered early on but discarded (not sure why) was
from Tavistock Square via Tavistock Place and Judd Street into Midland
Road.

This sounds far more sensible.

As a matter of fact, some of the route options will be opened to
consultation next month, so we'll see what the CRT team are offering!

Incidentally, the Mornington Crescent route is not finalised - LB
Camden would still like to see it routed along Euston Road as this is
more direct, but the practicalities are difficult - although bus lanes
already exist along that bit of road, the bus frequency is quite high
(seven routes including the very-high-frequency 73) and I'm not sure
that those lanes have the capacity to reliably carry 15tph plus some
30-40bph (at a guess).

Presumably, some of those routes could be sacrificed in favour of the
tram - the 91 duplicates the tram route, for example; the 476 could
perhaps be cut back to King's Cross, and the 390 might be able to go
round the back, via Midland Road and Goods Way.

tom



--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London