Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Sorry to bring this topic up yet again! Have been out of the country
and therefore a bit out of the loop.

I know that there were all the problems with KXT, and not being London
Terminals from the south, etc etc. I also read that, in January, it
*would* be classed as London Terminals. When does this start? From 2nd,
I assume?

Thanks
Sam

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

SamB wrote:
Sorry to bring this topic up yet again! Have been out of the country
and therefore a bit out of the loop.

I know that there were all the problems with KXT, and not being London
Terminals from the south, etc etc. I also read that, in January, it
*would* be classed as London Terminals. When does this start? From 2nd,
I assume?

Section A of NFM 95 (which came into effect today) shows no significant
changes to the previous rules regarding travel to/from/via Farringdon,
Barbican and Moorgate, except you now use a Zone U12 add-on instead of
Zone U1 (not that will make much difference).

Cheers,

Barry

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

"SamB" wrote in news:1167693428.150729.159240
@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Sorry to bring this topic up yet again! Have been out of the country
and therefore a bit out of the loop.

I know that there were all the problems with KXT, and not being London
Terminals from the south, etc etc. I also read that, in January, it
*would* be classed as London Terminals. When does this start? From 2nd,
I assume?

My understanding is that from today all Zone 1 stations are equivalent
See
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 00:47:23 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:

SamB wrote:
Sorry to bring this topic up yet again! Have been out of the country
and therefore a bit out of the loop.

I know that there were all the problems with KXT, and not being London
Terminals from the south, etc etc. I also read that, in January, it
*would* be classed as London Terminals. When does this start? From 2nd,
I assume?

Section A of NFM 95 (which came into effect today) shows no significant
changes to the previous rules regarding travel to/from/via Farringdon,
Barbican and Moorgate, except you now use a Zone U12 add-on instead of
Zone U1 (not that will make much difference).

It seems from NRE
(http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...lFares.html#01)
that London Thameslink is abolished; one must ask for (and will get a
tocket to) the individual station one wants but the fare will be that
ffor travel to National Rail Zone 1. Nothing is said about whether
tickets are then valid to or from other stations in that zone or
whether the inter-availability on parallel LU lines continues.

London TravelWatch has expressed its displeasure about how this new
'zonal' fare system has been implemented without actually having zonal
tickets.

PS. NRE seems to be telling me that NR tickets are valid from
Farringdon to Moorgate on NR trains but not LU trains. If true, it
strikes me as unenforceable.
--
Peter Lawrence

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

"Andrew Black (delete obvious bit)" wrote
My understanding is that from today all Zone 1 stations are equivalent
See
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html

What do you mean by 'equivalent'? Have you read the answer to 'what sort of
ticket do I ask for'?

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Peter Lawrence wrote:

It seems from NRE
(http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...lFares.html#01)
that London Thameslink is abolished; one must ask for (and will get a
tocket to) the individual station one wants but the fare will be that
ffor travel to National Rail Zone 1. Nothing is said about whether
tickets are then valid to or from other stations in that zone or
whether the inter-availability on parallel LU lines continues.

Bah! I was hoping that I'd finally be able to get a London Terminals to
KXT, and then get the train home from Charing Cross (which you could do
in the past if you didn't get caught, as the gates would accept it...).

I guess I'll see what the machine at Brockley spits at me... I'm not
holding my breath for it to be anything sensible, as anyone who
remembers my grumbles about its previous issues with Thameslink will
know...

Sam

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

On 1 Jan 2007 15:17:08 -0800, "SamB" wrote:

Sorry to bring this topic up yet again! Have been out of the country
and therefore a bit out of the loop.

I know that there were all the problems with KXT, and not being London
Terminals from the south, etc etc. I also read that, in January, it
*would* be classed as London Terminals. When does this start? From 2nd,
I assume?

Not quite correct I'm afraid. The change does apply from today. The fare
to each station in Zone 1 will be the same from say Haywards Heath.
However you must purchase a ticket to your destination station and
cannot use it to a station further on even if the fare is the same. For
example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to Kings Cross
Thameslink even though the fare will be the same. If you did travel
beyond Farringdon and encountered a ticket inspection you would be
subject to an excess / penalty fare (I don't know if Penalty Fares
operate on Thameslink or not).

This was the explanation provided by Barry Doe in Rail magazine. IMO
it's a rather nasty and deceptive tactic by FCC - why on earth they have
made things more complicated than before rather than give passengers
what would be convenient I do not know. They will have to do so
eventually when full zonal fares integration arrives and they have to
adopt PAYG.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

Not quite correct I'm afraid. The change does apply from today. The fare
to each station in Zone 1 will be the same from say Haywards Heath.
However you must purchase a ticket to your destination station and
cannot use it to a station further on even if the fare is the same. For
example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to Kings Cross
Thameslink even though the fare will be the same. If you did travel
beyond Farringdon and encountered a ticket inspection you would be
subject to an excess / penalty fare (I don't know if Penalty Fares
operate on Thameslink or not).

Thanks Paul. And yeah, they do operate a Penalty Fares system, which I
was caught out by on this very issue in the past, hence asking :)

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

In article , x
com (Paul Corfield) wrote:

On 1 Jan 2007 15:17:08 -0800, "SamB"
wrote:

Sorry to bring this topic up yet again! Have been out of the
country and therefore a bit out of the loop.

I know that there were all the problems with KXT, and not being
London Terminals from the south, etc etc. I also read that, in
January, it *would* be classed as London Terminals. When does this
start? From 2nd, I assume?

Not quite correct I'm afraid. The change does apply from today. The
fare to each station in Zone 1 will be the same from say Haywards Heath


Are you sure? See below.

However you must purchase a ticket to your destination station and
cannot use it to a station further on even if the fare is the same.
For example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to Kings Cross
Thameslink even though the fare will be the same. If you did travel
beyond Farringdon and encountered a ticket inspection you would be
subject to an excess / penalty fare (I don't know if Penalty Fares
operate on Thameslink or not).

This was the explanation provided by Barry Doe in Rail magazine.
IMO it's a rather nasty and deceptive tactic by FCC - why on earth they

have made things more complicated than before rather than give
passengers what would be convenient I do not know. They will have to
do so eventually when full zonal fares integration arrives and they
have to adopt PAYG.

None of this lifts the confusion over the right ticket for my saver
return, starting from a Southern station and returning to KX TL.
Presumably there isn't an FCC-only ticket at a higher price any more? The
ATOC web page says nothing about savers.

laterEek! Now the TL-Brighton saver return is cheaper than a Victoria
Brighton saver return (15.85 to 16.45 with Network Card discount)! I hope
this is all clear by next September.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:14:32 GMT, Peter Lawrence wrote:

It seems from NRE
(http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...lFares.html#01)
that London Thameslink is abolished; one must ask for (and will get a
tocket to) the individual station one wants but the fare will be that
ffor travel to National Rail Zone 1

I don't think it's entirely clear that London Thameslink is abolished.
For a start, fares from stations between Radlett and Bedford to London
Thameslink seem to be outside the scope of the document. And I take
what it says about fares being issued to individual stations to mean
that they're retrofitting the zonal structure to the existing fares
system (in other words, keeping the point-to-point fares but adjusting
all the prices of those fares to what they would be if they were
zonal), rather than that they're eradicating all existing fare
destinations that don't consist of a single named station. So I'd
expect London Thameslink, having existed as a destination before the
change, to survive.

Nothing is said about whether
tickets are then valid to or from other stations in that zone

Yes it does (if, as you're assuming, they're issued to a named
station), and the answer is no. Example:

"SINGLE: Valid at any time for travel between any two named National
Rail stations in the London Fare Zones area."

PS. NRE seems to be telling me that NR tickets are valid from
Farringdon to Moorgate on NR trains but not LU trains. If true, it
strikes me as unenforceable.

Unless something has changed, they are, provided they're not marked
"FCC Only" or "Not Underground" or similar.

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:14:02 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

I know that there were all the problems with KXT, and not being London
Terminals from the south, etc etc. I also read that, in January, it
*would* be classed as London Terminals. When does this start? From 2nd,
I assume?

Not quite correct I'm afraid. The change does apply from today. The fare
to each station in Zone 1 will be the same from say Haywards Heath.

The webpage suggests (but doesn't say categorically) that the changes
only apply to journeys wholly within the zones.

I infer the following from the online journey planners:

Haywards Heath to London Terminals (Not Gatwick Express) CDR £14.30
Haywards Heath to London Terminals (Any Permitted) CDR £16.10
Haywards Heath to Farringdon (Not Undergound) CDR £15.00
Haywards Heath to KXTL (FCC Only) £15.00

These appear to be all the CDRs available from HH to Zone 1 Thameslink
stations.

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
For example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to Kings Cross
Thameslink even though the fare will be the same.

Not according to FCC's online ticket site. A CDR from LTN to Farringdon
will cost £11, but a CDR from LTN to Kings Cross Thameslink will cost
£12! For some reason when I try City Thameslink, Blackfriars or London
Bridge, the site only quotes both 1-day Travelcard fares.

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

In article , invalid@invalid
invalid (asdf) wrote:

I infer the following from the online journey planners:

Haywards Heath to London Terminals (Not Gatwick Express) CDR £14.30
Haywards Heath to London Terminals (Any Permitted) CDR £16.10
Haywards Heath to Farringdon (Not Undergound) CDR £15.00
Haywards Heath to KXTL (FCC Only) £15.00

These appear to be all the CDRs available from HH to Zone 1
Thameslink
stations.

But see my Brighton examples posted earlier.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:49:39 GMT, Sky Rider wrote:

For example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to Kings Cross
Thameslink even though the fare will be the same.

Not according to FCC's online ticket site. A CDR from LTN to Farringdon
will cost £11, but a CDR from LTN to Kings Cross Thameslink will cost
£12! For some reason when I try City Thameslink, Blackfriars or London
Bridge, the site only quotes both 1-day Travelcard fares.

The usual ticket for a journey to City Thameslink, Blackfriars, or
London Bridge would be one to London Thameslink. I have a feeling the
planner doesn't know about them.

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

In article , sky
(Sky Rider) wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
For example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to Kings
Cross Thameslink even though the fare will be the same.

Not according to FCC's online ticket site. A CDR from LTN to
Farringdon will cost £11, but a CDR from LTN to Kings Cross
Thameslink will cost £12! For some reason when I try City
Thameslink, Blackfriars or London Bridge, the site only quotes both
1-day Travelcard fares.

It's the NRE site rather than FCC's. However, your point is a good one.

Cambridge-Farringdon or City Thameslink is £23 for a Cheap Day Travelcard
or £24 for a CDR; to King's Cross it's obviously cheaper for the CDR
(£18).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

In article , invalid@invalid
invalid (asdf) wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:49:39 GMT, Sky Rider wrote:

For example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to
Kings Cross Thameslink even though the fare will be the same.

Not according to FCC's online ticket site. A CDR from LTN to
Farringdon will cost £11, but a CDR from LTN to Kings Cross
Thameslink will cost £12! For some reason when I try City
Thameslink, Blackfriars or London Bridge, the site only quotes
both 1-day Travelcard fares.

The usual ticket for a journey to City Thameslink, Blackfriars, or
London Bridge would be one to London Thameslink. I have a feeling
the planner doesn't know about them.

It doesn't.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
It's the NRE site rather than FCC's. However, your point is a good one.

Cambridge-Farringdon or City Thameslink is £23 for a Cheap Day Travelcard
or £24 for a CDR; to King's Cross it's obviously cheaper for the CDR
(£18).

Yet another interesting anomaly - speaking of anomalies, during the
PM-peak FCC has now banned off-peak return journeys from Zone C to Zone
D if the return journey on the ticket starts in Zone B and finishes in
Zone D.

Having checked out the ticket prices at LTN itself, it seems that
'London Thameslink' still exists, thankfully. As for the NRE Journey
Planner, it's possible that a ticket to KX Thameslink will be issued to
'London Terminals' and that (for £1 less as previously stated) one to
Farringdon will be issued to 'London Thameslink'. The latter is also 20p
cheaper than last year.

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Sky Rider wrote:
The latter is also 20p cheaper than last year.
Erratum: That figure should be 15p. Which is still an (admittedly
negligible) 2% discount.

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Sky Rider wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
For example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to Kings Cross
Thameslink even though the fare will be the same.

Not according to FCC's online ticket site. A CDR from LTN to Farringdon
will cost £11, but a CDR from LTN to Kings Cross Thameslink will cost
£12! For some reason when I try City Thameslink, Blackfriars or London
Bridge, the site only quotes both 1-day Travelcard fares.

How very messed up.

Cheap Day Single fares seem to be different by direction... for example,
Luton to KXTL (using a Young Person's Railcard) is 7.85 but KXTL to
Luton is 8.20. CDR is 8.25. I got the same fares for Blackfriars and St
Pancras, but Farringdon was 8.20 to Luton and 7.20 from Luton (but it
gave me 8.25 again for the CDR).

Standard Day Singles were different by direction to and from West
Hampstead Thameslink, but not to any of the other stations I tried.

Maybe the planner is a bit confused...

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

In article , (Dave A)
wrote:

*Subject:* Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
*From:* Dave A
*Date:* Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:12:36 +0000

Sky Rider wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
For example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to
Kings Cross
Thameslink even though the fare will be the same.

Not according to FCC's online ticket site. A CDR from LTN to
Farringdon will cost £11, but a CDR from LTN to Kings Cross
Thameslink will cost £12! For some reason when I try City
Thameslink, Blackfriars or London Bridge, the site only quotes
both 1-day Travelcard fares.

How very messed up.

Cheap Day Single fares seem to be different by direction... for
example, Luton to KXTL (using a Young Person's Railcard) is 7.85
but KXTL to Luton is 8.20. CDR is 8.25. I got the same fares for
Blackfriars and St Pancras, but Farringdon was 8.20 to Luton and
7.20 from Luton (but it gave me 8.25 again for the CDR).

Standard Day Singles were different by direction to and from West
Hampstead Thameslink, but not to any of the other stations I tried.

Maybe the planner is a bit confused...

It certainly is. I was looking up times and tickets to Harrogate where
I'm going in March. At first I entered the wrong return date, making it
the same as the outward date. It offered me 5 outwards options with Saver
fares, four via Ely and one slightly higher via Stevenage (or not London)
I then corrected the return date, changing nothing else, and it only
offered me a Saver fare for the via Stevenage journey, though all the
return journey options were valid for savers.

WTF?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Dave A wrote:
How very messed up.

Cheap Day Single fares seem to be different by direction... for example,
Luton to KXTL (using a Young Person's Railcard) is 7.85 but KXTL to
Luton is 8.20. CDR is 8.25. I got the same fares for Blackfriars and St
Pancras, but Farringdon was 8.20 to Luton and 7.20 from Luton (but it
gave me 8.25 again for the CDR).

Standard Day Singles were different by direction to and from West
Hampstead Thameslink, but not to any of the other stations I tried.

Maybe the planner is a bit confused...
No doubt about that. Theoretically you can get an ODT from an FCC Zone D
to an FCC Zone C station and return with it during the evening peak
(needless to say once you're in Zone 6 then you can do almost what you
like for the day until you make the return journey, or until 0430 :-)),
but it 'claims' that a CDR cannot be used during the evening peak if
your originating outbound station is Radlett. Even though Radlett is now
in FCC Zone C.

In the meantime I'm busy typing documents on legal ticket combos that
allow people to travel to London and back on off-peak tickets during the
evening peak. By the way they don't include the debatable BOJ at Elstree
when using an ODT - I believe there was an argument on whether *that*
loophole was iron-cast last year, but in the words of FCC (correct as of
December 2006):

"The return portions of Cheap Day Return, One Day Off-Peak
Travelcard, Family Travelcard and DaySave tickets are no longer
valid for travel where the return journey starts at any station in
area B (see map on page 9) and ends at a station in area D for
services that depart from Moorgate, King's Cross, King's Cross
Thameslink and St Pancras between 1630 and 1901 Monday to
Friday.
The above restriction also applies to customers joining trains in
area C if the ticket they are using is for the return journey from a
station in area B to a station in area D."

To summarise - they agree with Neil Williams as far as the BOJ issue is
concerned.

Having done some research earlier, I've done *CDR + CDR* (1) and *CDR +
ODT* (2) prices for journeys from an FCC Zone B station to Farringdon
(not KCM, simply because of the pricing discrepancy I highlighted
earlier). In case you're wondering (this applies to both ticket combos),
the first ticket covers a journey from Zone D to C , and the second from
Zone C to Farringdon, which of course is in Zone B.

Although you would have to catch FCC stoppers for it to work, tangible
savings can be made when comapred to SDR and ADT tickets for the entire
journey. Sometimes even the single ODT can be more expensive -
regardless of whether you choose combo 1 or 2.

I don't know about you, but personally I'd like to publish the
corresponding documets somewhere. What would an organisation like
Passenger Focus make of it (yes I know they're working on the EPR issue
anyway but I still might be of help)? What do you think? If you like, I
could email you a copy - if so, send me a short message to my email
address, if possible with the email address you want me to reply to.

One last thing - perhaps you know already, but 'LTN' is the Luton
Airport Parkway code. Luton is 'LUT' ;-)

Kings Cross Thameslink and London Terminals
 

Dave A wrote:
Sky Rider wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
For example a ticket issued to Farringdon cannot be used to Kings Cross
Thameslink even though the fare will be the same.

Not according to FCC's online ticket site. A CDR from LTN to
Farringdon will cost £11, but a CDR from LTN to Kings Cross Thameslink
will cost £12! For some reason when I try City Thameslink, Blackfriars
or London Bridge, the site only quotes both 1-day Travelcard fares.

How very messed up.

Cheap Day Single fares seem to be different by direction... for example,
Luton to KXTL (using a Young Person's Railcard) is 7.85 but KXTL to
Luton is 8.20. CDR is 8.25. I got the same fares for Blackfriars and St
Pancras, but Farringdon was 8.20 to Luton and 7.20 from Luton (but it
gave me 8.25 again for the CDR).

Standard Day Singles were different by direction to and from West
Hampstead Thameslink, but not to any of the other stations I tried.

Maybe the planner is a bit confused...

I sent an email to FCC and they told me that the anomaly has been fixed.
From Monday a London Terminals ticket will be sold for the same price
as a London Thameslink ticket. Which means that I can travel to St
Pancras and back for £11 and not £12. Unless of course I bring my YPR
with me - then it would be £7.25. :-)