In message id, Dr J R
Stockton writes

Query : there are three holes under the main line near Elm Road level
crossing. One is for Elm Road; one is used by trains from New Malden to
Norbiton. Why the third, parallel to and north of the second?

I can't immediately see where you mean. Can you give a location on ...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...en,+Greater+Lo
ndon,+United+Kingdom&ie=UTF8&sll=53.098145,-2.443696&sspn=9.308633,20.434
57&z=19&ll=51.402432,-0.264294&spn=0.00118,0.003374&t=k&om=1

--
Paul Terry

In uk.transport.london message , Wed, 21
Feb 2007 19:26:47, Paul Terry posted:
In message id, Dr J
R Stockton writes

Query : there are three holes under the main line near Elm Road level
crossing. One is for Elm Road; one is used by trains from New Malden to
Norbiton. Why the third, parallel to and north of the second?

I can't immediately see where you mean.

I've misplaced a better answer; but the unused hole is a bit over one
train-width to the north, and a few yards to the east, of the working
one. The ends are easily seen.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.

In uk.transport.london message , Wed, 21
Feb 2007 19:26:47, Paul Terry posted:
In message id, Dr J
R Stockton writes

Query : there are three holes under the main line near Elm Road level
crossing. One is for Elm Road; one is used by trains from New Malden to
Norbiton. Why the third, parallel to and north of the second?

I can't immediately see where you mean. Can you give a location on ...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...en,+Greater+Lo
ndon,+United+Kingdom&ie=UTF8&sll=53.098145,-2.443696&sspn=9.308633,20.434
57&z=19&ll=51.402432,-0.264294&spn=0.00118,0.003374&t=k&om=1

Recovered by re-boot :


If you walk down Elm Road, it's obvious.

Better to start with one step less of zoom. You can then see the
Norbiton-bound track going under the main line and across the road,
where the crossing is closed. The third hole is parallel to the second,
to the north of it by the width of a train plus the thickness of a wall
plus (presumably) a bit of clearance, and to the east of it by about 40
feet.

On each side of the main line you can see two triangular flat bits of
hole-roof, one with track and one without.

Note that the picture of that part was taken from a bit to the North
(and East) - the new-looking building to the NW of the crossing beside
Holmwood Court, with two sets of chimneys, can be presumed to have a
symmetrical roof. But at New Malden Station, the picture of the west
tower was clearly taken from the South, unlike that of the east tower.

The expected train is nearing the West end of Northcote Road.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.

In message id, Dr J R
Stockton writes

I've misplaced a better answer; but the unused hole is a bit over one
train-width to the north, and a few yards to the east, of the working
one. The ends are easily seen.

Ah, got it!

When built, both tracks of the Kingston loop buried under the main line
at Elm Road, and then ran in parallel with (but independently of) the
main line (i.e. on what are the southern pair of the four tracks). So
the mysterious hole was for the Kingston Loop up-line before the main
line was re-arranged for four-track running through to Surbiton. I'm not
sure when that was, but it would have been when the Kingston up-line was
re-routed across the rather awkward level crossing at Elm Road and on to
the north side of the main line, thus leaving the unoccupied short
tunnel under the main line.

According to the Middleton book on the Kingston loop, the old up-line
track was there until about 1884. It can be seen (using the magnified
view) at:

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/oldmaps/in...orthing=168482

--
Paul Terry

On Feb 24, 3:52 pm, Paul Terry wrote:
In message id, Dr J R
Stockton writes

I've misplaced a better answer; but the unused hole is a bit over one
train-width to the north, and a few yards to the east, of the working
one. The ends are easily seen.

Ah, got it!

When built, both tracks of the Kingston loop buried

burrowed?

under the main line
at Elm Road, and then ran in parallel with (but independently of) the
main line (i.e. on what are the southern pair of the four tracks). So
the mysterious hole was for the Kingston Loop up-line

The up line presumably being Kingston to Wimbledon (worth confirming,
as of course both routes out of Kingston go to London).
Did the rearrangement happen when the Wimbledon flyover was built (or
v.v.) ?

In message m,
writes

The up line presumably being Kingston to Wimbledon

Yes.

Did the rearrangement happen when the Wimbledon flyover was built

No, the Wimbledon flyover came much later (1936, I think).

From the late 19th-century until 1936 the lines were paired by direction
all the way to Waterloo, causing enormous problems because the slow
services and fast services had to cross on the level at Waterloo station
throat to get to the right set of platforms.

The Wimbledon flyover solved this problem by getting the fast (up and
down) services onto one adjacent pair of tracks and the slow (up and
down) services onto the other adjacent pair without a crossing on the
level, in advance of the terminus. A long way in advance, of course, but
I guess it was the most practical and cost-effective place to make the
switch in pairing.
--
Paul Terry

In uk.transport.london message , Sat, 24
Feb 2007 15:52:02, Paul Terry posted:
In message id, Dr J
R Stockton writes

I've misplaced a better answer; but the unused hole is a bit over one
train-width to the north, and a few yards to the east, of the working
one. The ends are easily seen.

Ah, got it!

When built, both tracks of the Kingston loop buried under the main line
at Elm Road, and then ran in parallel with (but independently of) the
main line (i.e. on what are the southern pair of the four tracks). So
the mysterious hole was for the Kingston Loop up-line before the main
line was re-arranged for four-track running through to Surbiton. I'm
not sure when that was, but it would have been when the Kingston up-
line was re-routed across the rather awkward level crossing at Elm Road
and on to the north side of the main line, thus leaving the unoccupied
short tunnel under the main line.

According to the Middleton book on the Kingston loop, the old up-line
track was there until about 1884. It can be seen (using the magnified
view) at:

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/oldmaps/in...ing=520855&nor
thing=168482

I see - the routes seem to be separate as far back as Raynes Park.

You won't see from Google; but the middle half of the Elm Road
overbridge is a brick arch of great age and inadequate size. The
southern quarter of the bridge is considerably younger but apparently
decrepit. The northern quarter is now about a week old; I think the
southern quarter has a week to live.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 IE 6.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/ - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.