I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

--
Edward Cowling London UK

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:01:20 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

Yes.

"Edward Cowling London UK" wrote in message
...
I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??


The answer is to either extend all the platforms and buy longer trains, or
cancel all the freight trains, buy more trains, and run them more often.
Don't make any plans based on it happening soon.

Paul

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??


On 27 Feb, 19:01, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
I used the North London Line to get from Highbury and Islington the last
two days there were enough people to fill 8 carriages, but only 3 on the
train.

It must be common, because there was no hesitancy getting on board,
everyone runs and crams into every available inch of space.

Is this cattle truck scenario the norm ??

--
Edward Cowling London UK


You didn't say where and when you were going but yes, in my experience
at peak times the North London Line between Stratford and Willesden
Junction can be very busy in both directions, though I think it's
slightly less rammed west of West Hampstead. I don''t have a lot of
experience of the NLL south from Willesden Junction to Richmond but I
don't think it's quite so packed.

TfL have ambitious plans for the NLL once they take over in November,
but as yet I don't think there's been any talk of lengthened trains,
just some plans for more frequent trains though I don't think there's
anything concrete yet.

The NLL isn't getting new trains until 2009 - there's 24 three car
trains on order for the NLL but I'm not sure how many old trains are
in the fleet now, nor am I sure how intensive a service the new fleet
(or the old one for that matter) could provide. Another major issue
with the NLL is that it's an important cross-London freight link which
has no real alternative, for some stretches at least.

Running longer trains on the NLL would require a number of stations to
have their platforms extended, which is easy in places but much harder
in others (such as at Kentish Town West). I have read somewhere
(either here on uk.railway) that Network Rail's Route Utilisation
Strategy doesn't anticipate the NLL needing longer trains for the next
few years - which is a bit of a surprise when you've seen it in cattle
transportation mode!

The NLL has seemingly turned from a forgotten backwater of London's
rail system to become a very popular orbital link, but it's now almost
too popular for it's own good.

There's a lot more about plans for the NLL on alwaystouchout:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/43

The 8 trains per hour that wil run from Highbury and Islington down to
Crystal Palace and West Croydon using the extended East London Line
might help a bit, but those are going to be 4-car trains as well...

The new trains should also be more tube-like, and in the end the
service should look something like this:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-1.png
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-2.png

On 27 Feb, 20:07, "sweek" wrote:
The 8 trains per hour that wil run from Highbury and Islington down to
Crystal Palace and West Croydon using the extended East London Line
might help a bit, but those are going to be 4-car trains as well...

You mean the ELLX trains will be four car - the replacement NLL trains
will still be three car.


The new trains should also be more tube-like, and in the end the
service should look something like this:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-1.png
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-2.png

You rightly point out that the new Electrostar trains will be of a
more suitable design, which will of course help, but they won't cure
the problem. More capacity is needed.

I should of course have consulted the alwaystouchout page I referred
to in my first post and taken a proper look at those maps before
posting, so thanks for providing the direct link. I'm not quite sure
how the 8tph between Willesden Junction and Stratford will get fitted
in with all the freight, but that is indeed the plan - though not
until 2010 at the earliest.

On 27 Feb 2007 13:56:41 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

The new trains should also be more tube-like, and in the end the
service should look something like this:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-1.png
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/pr...il-phase-2.png

You rightly point out that the new Electrostar trains will be of a
more suitable design, which will of course help, but they won't cure
the problem. More capacity is needed.

I should of course have consulted the alwaystouchout page I referred
to in my first post and taken a proper look at those maps before
posting, so thanks for providing the direct link. I'm not quite sure
how the 8tph between Willesden Junction and Stratford will get fitted
in with all the freight, but that is indeed the plan - though not
until 2010 at the earliest.

It seems to be more of an aspiration than a plan. Network Rail pour
cold water on it in their Cross-London Route Utilisation Strategy:

"Beyond 2014:
It has not been possible to identify infrastructure deliverable within
the scope and timeframe of this RUS that would accommodate TfL's
ultimate aspiration of four trains per hour on each of a number of
overlapping routes as well as existing freight traffic."

Briefly, the recommendations of the RUS a

-extend NLL and WLL platforms and services to 4 car
-cut existing Southern WLL service back to Croydon and add 1tph
Shepherds Bush - Croydon
-extend existing 2tph Silverlink WLL services along the Goblin to
Barking (using Class 170 units reconfigured to Class 376 standard)
-add 2tph Stratford to Queen's Park
-signalling improvements to improve headways on the NLL and Goblin
-4-tracking Camden to Dalston (formerly 4-track but currently 3-track)
-provision of through platforms on the Goblin at Gospel Oak
-NLL power supply upgrade
-freight loop at Camden Road

In message .com,
Mizter T writes

TfL have ambitious plans for the NLL once they take over in November,
but as yet I don't think there's been any talk of lengthened trains,
just some plans for more frequent trains though I don't think there's
anything concrete yet.


Nice to hear TFL are going to do something with the congestion charge
money, other than filling the streets with buses. Pity they didn't start
the project in 2003, but better late than never :-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

On 27 Feb 2007 11:52:56 -0800, Mizter T wrote:

You didn't say where and when you were going but yes, in my experience
at peak times the North London Line between Stratford and Willesden
Junction can be very busy in both directions, though I think it's
slightly less rammed west of West Hampstead. I don''t have a lot of
experience of the NLL south from Willesden Junction to Richmond but I
don't think it's quite so packed.

It is indeed not quite so packed, in the sense that you can actually
get on the train.

The NLL isn't getting new trains until 2009 - there's 24 three car
trains on order for the NLL but I'm not sure how many old trains are
in the fleet now, nor am I sure how intensive a service the new fleet
(or the old one for that matter) could provide.

The current fleet consists of 23 3-car 313s and 3 3-car 508s. These
cover the NLL, WLL, Watford DC line, and St Albans Abbey branch.

The 24 new trains will cover NLL and WLL services (not sure about the
St Albans Abbey branch).

(The Euston-Watford service will most likely be binned, and there will
be a separate fleet of 20 4-car third-rail-only trains for the
extended ELL.)

Mizter T wrote:
The NLL has seemingly turned from a forgotten backwater of London's
rail system to become a very popular orbital link, but it's now almost
too popular for it's own good.

I put much of its popularity down to lack of proper 'revenue
protection'. When teams of grippers are in action those packed NLL
carriages can empty rather rapidly with people abandoning the train ASAP
or flitting between carriages. The forthcoming station developments,
gates et al, may help clamp down on this and so the three car trains
could prove sufficient for a while longer.

ESB