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LU Stock Transfer Lines
Is there a website which includes details of "odd" stretches of the LU
network not normally used for passenger carrying journeys? I'm thinking mainly about connecting links between different "lines". Are any of these quite lengthy? Would most drivers working Line "X" and Line "Y" be trained to work over a connecting line between the two? Is the link from the District Line to the East London Line just a short tunnel section with double-track? -- gordon |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
There are no quite lengthly connections, apart from in depots such as
Ruislip which has connections to the Central and Met. The longest one outside of depots is probably Saint Mary's curve between Aldgate East and Whitechapel connecting the East London Line to the District, used for transferring A stock, which as you say is a short double track tunnel section. In general, only engineering train operators have a working knowledge of more than one line. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
In message . com,
" writes Is there a website which includes details of "odd" stretches of the LU network not normally used for passenger carrying journeys? I'm thinking mainly about connecting links between different "lines". Are any of these quite lengthy? Would most drivers working Line "X" and Line "Y" be trained to work over a connecting line between the two? Is the link from the District Line to the East London Line just a short tunnel section with double-track? I don't know of any specific websites offhand but Tubeprune is likely to have something. I have a copy of the 2002 London Transport Quail map which shows all the track plans for LU, hence these links. I obtained it from the London(s) Transport Museum some time ago, I don't know if they still sell them though. There are only a few specific links on LU as most lines have some common sections (ie. Hammersmith Hanger Lane Junction for the District/Piccadilly) and transfers can be done easily over these. The only ones I can think of a East London District over St. Mary's Curve. Victoria Piccadilly over the crossover just south of Finsbury Park. Northern Piccadilly via the Kings Cross Loop (a short tunnel from Kings Cross (Northern Northbound) to Kings Cross (Piccadilly Eastbound). CentralMetropolitan/Piccadilly at Ruislip depot. (You can also get from the CentralDistrict at Ealing Broadway, but this has been disused for many years, I tink since Central line ATO, and I'm not sure if it's deemed available any more) BakerlooJubilee at Baker Street, although as the Bakerloo and Jubilee used to be the same line once upon a time I'm not sure this counts as a special link. With these, it is possible to get from any part of the Underground to any other part, albeit by some very convoluted routes in some cases. All 'normal' Underground drivers are allocated to one depot and only work the line that depot services. Any driver transferring from line X to line Y would be deemed to have lost their knowledge of line X after 6 months, although within that time they could technically drive both lines if their line X licence hasn't been withdrawn on transfer. The only exception to this I can think of is the East London line where the drivers also 'know' the road to Neasden for stock transfers there for maintenance. This will stop from the end of the year anyway. There are a number of Engineering train drivers who drive those little yellow slug loco things on engineering trains who are required to have knowledge of the whole combine. There are also a small number of test train drivers who know everything as they are trained on al stocks on all lines. They don't get out much as they spend all their lives on refresher courses! St. Mary's Curve is indeed double track but due to the sharp curves, the signalling has been modified to only allow one train in the section at any one time due to the possibility of trains touching each other. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
"Gordon" writes:
Is there a website which includes details of "odd" stretches of the LU network not normally used for passenger carrying journeys? I'm thinking mainly about connecting links between different "lines". Are any of these quite lengthy? ... CULG http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/ covers these in the Connections section for each line, with further description as appropriate in the Layout or History sections (for example, if the link was at one time used by trains in service, with the District - East London connection). -- Mark Brader, Toronto | "I'm not going to post a revision: even USENET | readers can divide by 100." -- Brian Reid |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On 29 Apr, 18:31, (Mark Brader) wrote:
CULG http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/ covers these in the Connections section for each line, with further description as appropriate in the Layout or History sections (for example, if the link was at one time used by trains in service, with the District - East London connection). Thanks for that and also to the others who have replied. -- gordon |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
Steve Fitzgerald wrote:
With these, it is possible to get from any part of the Underground to any other part, albeit by some very convoluted routes in some cases. ..... apart from the Waterloo & City Line, which trains can only reach by being lowered by a crane. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On 29 Apr, 16:25, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
St. Mary's Curve is indeed double track but due to the sharp curves, the signalling has been modified to only allow one train in the section at any one time due to the possibility of trains touching each other. That begs the question of why did they build the tunnel that bit too narrow? B2003 |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, John Rowland wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald wrote: With these, it is possible to get from any part of the Underground to any other part, albeit by some very convoluted routes in some cases. .... apart from the Waterloo & City Line, which trains can only reach by being lowered by a crane. Has consideration ever been given to connecting the W&C to anything? I reckon you could plumb it into the Central line at Bank; don't know if you could get it up to mainline level at Waterloo, or anywhere near any of the tube lines. tom -- People don't want nice. People want London. -- Al |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
Boltar wrote:
On 29 Apr, 16:25, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote: St. Mary's Curve is indeed double track but due to the sharp curves, the signalling has been modified to only allow one train in the section at any one time due to the possibility of trains touching each other. That begs the question of why did they build the tunnel that bit too narrow? Or the stock that bit too big? Seriously, though, 'A' stock was not around when the curve was built. The length of modern cars and the distance between the bogies means that the centre of the vehicles swing further out when curving than earlier short wheelbase stock would have done, with the resulting danger of scraping trains passing in the other direction. 'A' stock was never intended for the ELL and only really ended up there as a result of their being some flexibility in the fleet during a recessional period. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On 30 Apr, 12:52, Tom Anderson wrote:
Has consideration ever been given to connecting the W&C to anything? I reckon you could plumb it into the Central line at Bank; don't know if you could get it up to mainline level at Waterloo, or anywhere near any of the tube lines. There have been proposals at various times for extensions north, to meet the ex-Northern City Branch at Moorgate. However, these proposals always mention that the Bank of England vaults get in the way. I think in reality, the direction of the W&C platforms at Bank isn't particularly suited to an extension at Moorgate. Sam |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
Tom Anderson:
Has consideration ever been given to connecting the W&C to anything? "Sam": There have been proposals at various times for extensions north, to meet the ex-Northern City Branch at Moorgate. Notably by the Metropolitan Railway just after they took over the latter line in 1913. However, these proposals always mention that the Bank of England vaults get in the way. I think in reality, the direction of the W&C platforms at Bank isn't particularly suited to an extension at Moorgate. To save money, the W&C station (originally called City, not Bank) was built with its platforms some distance west of the actual square where the Bank is -- what's why passengers reach the surface by a long inclined tunnel (which did not have a moving ramp until 1960) -- and as I understand it they're under Queen Victoria Street. That would give a reasonable alignment for an extension toward Moorgate station, if nothing was in the way, and if it was desired. Of course, the combined line could then only use tube-size trains, so that would be one more reason not to do it. -- Mark Brader "To err is human, but to really mess things up Toronto you need a timetable planner!" -- Richard Porter My text in this article is in the public domain. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
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LU Stock Transfer Lines
On 1 May, 09:34, Bill Hayles wrote:
I have been ridden *the curve as a passenger twice; once on F stock and once on Q stock. Is there anything to see over this section or is it basically a featureless section of tunnel with a junction at each either end? -- gordon |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On 1 May 2007 14:24:22 -0700, "
wrote: On 1 May, 09:34, Bill Hayles wrote: I have been ridden 4he curve as a passenger twice; once on F stock and once on Q stock. Is there anything to see over this section or is it basically a featureless section of tunnel with a junction at each either end? That about sums it up. -- Bill Hayles http://billnot.com |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On 30 Apr, 12:52, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, John Rowland wrote: Steve Fitzgerald wrote: With these, it is possible to get from any part of the Underground to any other part, albeit by some very convoluted routes in some cases. .... apart from the Waterloo & City Line, which trains can only reach by being lowered by a crane. Has consideration ever been given to connecting the W&C to anything? I reckon you could plumb it into the Central line at Bank; don't know if you could get it up to mainline level at Waterloo, or anywhere near any of the tube lines. I've long thought it should be extended to Vauxhall and possibly Clapham Junction, to spread the load a bit. There was a discussion about that here a long time ago, and I've forgotten why it turned out to be a bad idea. :( Can't see much advantage in connecting the W&C and Victoria, though... Thanks Henry |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
Henry wrote:
[W&C] I've long thought it should be extended to Vauxhall and possibly Clapham Junction, to spread the load a bit. There was a discussion about that here a long time ago, and I've forgotten why it turned out to be a bad idea. :( Can't see much advantage in connecting the W&C and Victoria, though... The problem with the W&C is that, because of the short trains, it can get horrendously overcrowded in the peaks (with queues up the ramps at Waterloo). This isn't too bad if everyone gets on at one end and gets off at the other, but if you had an intermediate station, you'd be packing people onto already full trains with very few getting off. The only fix would be to extend the platforms at both stations to fit proper length trains of 7 or 8 cars. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On Apr 29, 4:25 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message . com, " writes Is there a website which includes details of "odd" stretches of the LU network not normally used for passenger carrying journeys? I'm thinking mainly about connecting links between different "lines". Are any of these quite lengthy? Would most drivers working Line "X" and Line "Y" be trained to work over a connecting line between the two? Is the link from the District Line to the East London Line just a short tunnel section with double-track? I don't know of any specific websites offhand but Tubeprune is likely to have something. I have a copy of the 2002 London Transport Quail map which shows all the track plans for LU, hence these links. I obtained it from the London(s) Transport Museum some time ago, I don't know if they still sell them though. There are only a few specific links on LU as most lines have some common sections (ie. Hammersmith Hanger Lane Junction for the District/Piccadilly) and transfers can be done easily over these. The only ones I can think of a East London District over St. Mary's Curve. Victoria Piccadilly over the crossover just south of Finsbury Park. Northern Piccadilly via the Kings Cross Loop (a short tunnel from Kings Cross (Northern Northbound) to Kings Cross (Piccadilly Eastbound). CentralMetropolitan/Piccadilly at Ruislip depot. (You can also get from the CentralDistrict at Ealing Broadway, but this has been disused for many years, I tink since Central line ATO, and I'm not sure if it's deemed available any more) Talking of ATO, I think it used to be used for transfer between the Victoria Line and the ATO Hainault - Woodford section, but I suppose Ruislip would be just as good for that. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
MIG wrote:
On Apr 29, 4:25 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote: In message . com, " writes I don't know of any specific websites offhand but Tubeprune is likely to have something. I have a copy of the 2002 London Transport Quail map which shows all the track plans for LU, hence these links. I obtained it from the London(s) Transport Museum some time ago, I don't know if they still sell them though. There are only a few specific links on LU as most lines have some common sections (ie. Hammersmith Hanger Lane Junction for the District/Piccadilly) and transfers can be done easily over these. The only ones I can think of a East London District over St. Mary's Curve. Victoria Piccadilly over the crossover just south of Finsbury Park. Northern Piccadilly via the Kings Cross Loop (a short tunnel from Kings Cross (Northern Northbound) to Kings Cross (Piccadilly Eastbound). CentralMetropolitan/Piccadilly at Ruislip depot. (You can also get from the CentralDistrict at Ealing Broadway, but this has been disused for many years, I tink since Central line ATO, and I'm not sure if it's deemed available any more) Talking of ATO, I think it used to be used for transfer between the Victoria Line and the ATO Hainault - Woodford section, but I suppose Ruislip would be just as good for that. I don't understand - what is "it"/"that"? I thought the ATO was removed from Woodford Hainault before the Vic was opened. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
John Rowland wrote:
MIG wrote: On Apr 29, 4:25 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote: In message . com, " writes snip (You can also get from the CentralDistrict at Ealing Broadway, but this has been disused for many years, I tink since Central line ATO, and I'm not sure if it's deemed available any more) Talking of ATO, I think it used to be used for transfer between the Victoria Line and the ATO Hainault - Woodford section, but I suppose Ruislip would be just as good for that. I don't understand - what is "it"/"that"? I thought the ATO was removed from Woodford Hainault before the Vic was opened. I think "it" is the District-Central link at Ealing Broadway and "that" is transfer of the ATO trains between Victoria line and Central line, but it is all rather confusing. According to "The twopenny Tube" by J Graeme Bruce and Desmond F Croome pub by Capital Transport the Victoria line trains were initially tested on the Woodford Hainault ATO (Automatic Train Operation) fitted section before going to the Victoria line. Some remained ther in service use until there was a demand for them on the Victoria line the last going in September 1984. The ATO on the Woodford-Hainault line was decommissioned from October 1986. -- Cheers for now, John from Harrow, Middx remove spamnocars to reply |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On May 3, 9:07 am, "John Shelley"
wrote: John Rowland wrote: MIG wrote: On Apr 29, 4:25 pm, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote: In message . com, " writes snip (You can also get from the CentralDistrict at Ealing Broadway, but this has been disused for many years, I tink since Central line ATO, and I'm not sure if it's deemed available any more) Talking of ATO, I think it used to be used for transfer between the Victoria Line and the ATO Hainault - Woodford section, but I suppose Ruislip would be just as good for that. I don't understand - what is "it"/"that"? I thought the ATO was removed from Woodford Hainault before the Vic was opened. I think "it" is the District-Central link at Ealing Broadway and "that" is transfer of the ATO trains between Victoria line and Central line, but it is all rather confusing. According to "The twopenny Tube" by J Graeme Bruce and Desmond F Croome pub by Capital Transport the Victoria line trains were initially tested on the Woodford Hainault ATO (Automatic Train Operation) fitted section before going to the Victoria line. Some remained ther in service use until there was a demand for them on the Victoria line the last going in September 1984. The ATO on the Woodford-Hainault line was decommissioned from October 1986. The Hainault - Woodford section must have stopped running as a shuttle at that time, with some trains running through from central London to Woodford via Hainault. When it was a shuttle, there was generally one unit of 1967 (Victoria Line) stock based at Hainault at any given time, but they would rotate, with the transfers taking place via Ealing Broadway. For some reason, I can only ever remember units from the second order of 1967 stock (for the Brixton extension) running on the Central. I can't think of any reason for why that would be. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
Spyke wrote:
Henry wrote: [W&C] I've long thought it should be extended to Vauxhall and possibly Clapham Junction, to spread the load a bit. There was a discussion about that here a long time ago, and I've forgotten why it turned out to be a bad idea. :( .... The problem with the W&C is that, because of the short trains, it can get horrendously overcrowded in the peaks (with queues up the ramps at Waterloo). This isn't too bad if everyone gets on at one end and gets off at the other, but if you had an intermediate station, you'd be packing people onto already full trains with very few getting off. I like the idea of "stopping" and "fast" services on the W&C! :) More deviously, what about running just Bank-Vauxhall(direct) and Bank-Waterloo only? Would there be sufficient capacity to turn more trains at Bank? The only fix would be to extend the platforms at both stations to fit proper length trains of 7 or 8 cars. That would certainly improve the capacity of the line overall. I'm just wondering whether there could be benefits elsewhere from separating out suburban and long-distance rail users before they reach Waterloo. Hth Henry |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On May 3, 10:48 pm, Henry wrote:
Spyke wrote: Henry wrote: [W&C] I've long thought it should be extended to Vauxhall and possibly Clapham Junction, to spread the load a bit. There was a discussion about that here a long time ago, and I've forgotten why it turned out to be a bad idea. :( ... The problem with the W&C is that, because of the short trains, it can get horrendously overcrowded in the peaks (with queues up the ramps at Waterloo). This isn't too bad if everyone gets on at one end and gets off at the other, but if you had an intermediate station, you'd be packing people onto already full trains with very few getting off. I like the idea of "stopping" and "fast" services on the W&C! :) More deviously, what about running just Bank-Vauxhall(direct) and Bank-Waterloo only? Would there be sufficient capacity to turn more trains at Bank? The only fix would be to extend the platforms at both stations to fit proper length trains of 7 or 8 cars. That would certainly improve the capacity of the line overall. I'm just wondering whether there could be benefits elsewhere from separating out suburban and long-distance rail users before they reach Waterloo. Hth Henry- There are problems with this, to put it mildly. Firstly, the Waterloo and City didn't have any other tube lines to connect with when it was built, because it connected the LSWR with the City, for which reason it comes pretty much to the surface at both ends and would have to tunnel down again through significant obstructions. Secondly, it doesn't point anywhere vaguely in the direction of Vauxhall. It actually points towards Elephant and Castle, so there would have to be a big loop. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
"MIG" wrote in message oups.com... More deviously, what about running just Bank-Vauxhall(direct) and Bank-Waterloo only? Would there be sufficient capacity to turn more trains at Bank? There are problems with this, to put it mildly. Firstly, the Waterloo and City didn't have any other tube lines to connect with when it was built, because it connected the LSWR with the City, for which reason it comes pretty much to the surface at both ends and would have to tunnel down again through significant obstructions. What sort of depth are the Waterloo platforms at, wrt the outside ground level - presumably they are only just underneath the station undercroft, at approximately cut and cover level compared to the outside streets? Paul |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
MIG wrote:
There are problems with this, to put it mildly. Firstly, the Waterloo and City didn't have any other tube lines to connect with when it was built, because it connected the LSWR with the City, for which reason it comes pretty much to the surface at both ends and would have to tunnel down again through significant obstructions. Secondly, it doesn't point anywhere vaguely in the direction of Vauxhall. It actually points towards Elephant and Castle, so there would have to be a big loop. Wonder if it would be possible to branch off before the track goes up to Waterloo and build new tunnels towards Vauxhall. As I have understood it the W&C Line goes under Stamford Road up to the IMAX Cinema and then goes up under the Waterloo mainline station so it might be possible as I can see to branch off under or right before the IMAX. That would leave the line with two branches of course with trains running either Bank - Waterloo and Bank - Vauxhall but would that necessarily be a problem? For such a line I don't think so. I think the trains would be filled anyway and that not many people getting on at Vauxhall would find it useful to be able to get off at Waterloo anyway. -- Olof Lagerkvist ICQ: 724451 Web: http://here.is/olof |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
In message , Paul Scott
writes What sort of depth are the Waterloo platforms at, wrt the outside ground level - presumably they are only just underneath the station undercroft, at approximately cut and cover level compared to the outside streets? Yes. In fact you can see the lines in the depot from the street on the south side of the station - about 20 feet below ground level, I's say. -- Paul Terry |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
On May 4, 11:52 am, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
MIG wrote: There are problems with this, to put it mildly. Firstly, the Waterloo and City didn't have any other tube lines to connect with when it was built, because it connected the LSWR with the City, for which reason it comes pretty much to the surface at both ends and would have to tunnel down again through significant obstructions. Secondly, it doesn't point anywhere vaguely in the direction of Vauxhall. It actually points towards Elephant and Castle, so there would have to be a big loop. Wonder if it would be possible to branch off before the track goes up to Waterloo and build new tunnels towards Vauxhall. As I have understood it the W&C Line goes under Stamford Road up to the IMAX Cinema and then goes up under the Waterloo mainline station so it might be possible as I can see to branch off under or right before the IMAX. That would leave the line with two branches of course with trains running either Bank - Waterloo and Bank - Vauxhall but would that necessarily be a problem? For such a line I don't think so. I think the trains would be filled anyway and that not many people getting on at Vauxhall would find it useful to be able to get off at Waterloo anyway. I tend to think that nearness to the surface would always be a problem with extending the Waterloo and City. I think this suggestion would probably involve going through the Eurostar terminal (although if that's going to be demolished/redeveloped, who knows). There's also the LU escalators heading down roughly under the Euro concourse. Just too much stuff around when you are near the surface. |
LU Stock Transfer Lines
In article . com,
" writes There are no quite lengthly connections, apart from in depots such as Ruislip which has connections to the Central and Met. The longest one outside of depots is probably Saint Mary's curve between Aldgate East and Whitechapel connecting the East London Line to the District, The St.Mary's Curve is 460m long. The King's Cross Loop is actually slightly longer, at 490m (in both cases junction-to-junction). As you say, the only other thing I would count as a link line rather than just a crossover between tracks is the Ruislip depot link; I don't have a length for that to hand. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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