Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

Hi, I recently heard that from the moment of touching in, I have 2
hours to touch out, otherwise I will pay the penalty for not touching
out. Is that true?

If it is, then it adds a nice feature to travelling to DLR and other
stations without the barriers. I can just go to Canary Wharf shopping
centre, buy some stuff, and go back, paying just 1 quid (i live in
Z2). Is there anything that can go wrong in this method? Any exception
from entering and exiting at the same station etc.?

And last question - is there any website I can check what exact fare
would I be charged when travelling between two stations? On some
journeys there is a choice of going through Z1 or not, and I would
like to know which of these applies on the particular journey.

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

XmaX wrote:

If it is, then it adds a nice feature to travelling to DLR and other
stations without the barriers. I can just go to Canary Wharf shopping
centre, buy some stuff, and go back, paying just 1 quid (i live in
Z2). Is there anything that can go wrong in this method? Any exception
from entering and exiting at the same station etc.?

If you don't touch out and then back in again at Canary Wharf, you could
be done for fare evasion.

And last question - is there any website I can check what exact fare
would I be charged when travelling between two stations? On some
journeys there is a choice of going through Z1 or not, and I would
like to know which of these applies on the particular journey.

Yeah, it's on TfL's web site.
--
Michael Hoffman

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On May 30, 8:37 pm, XmaX wrote:
If it is, then it adds a nice feature to travelling to DLR and other
stations without the barriers. I can just go to Canary Wharf shopping
centre, buy some stuff, and go back, paying just 1 quid (i live in
Z2). Is there anything that can go wrong in this method? Any exception
from entering and exiting at the same station etc.?

If the ticket inspector stops you on the journey back they may get
suspicious about what you're playing at, although it's not clear if
they're likely to do anything about it.

And last question - is there any website I can check what exact fare
would I be charged when travelling between two stations? On some
journeys there is a choice of going through Z1 or not, and I would
like to know which of these applies on the particular journey.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/farefinder/

U

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

If it is, then it adds a nice feature to travelling to DLR and other
stations without the barriers. I can just go to Canary Wharf shopping
centre, buy some stuff, and go back, paying just 1 quid (i live in
Z2). Is there anything that can go wrong in this method? Any exception
from entering and exiting at the same station etc.?

You'll be charged two maximum fares - one for your outbound journey and one
for your return.

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

If you don't touch out and then back in again at Canary Wharf, you could
be done for fare evasion.

I suppose you're right, but how can anybody know that I am evading?
OK, it might look a bit strange that I went there and then I go back,
but what's wrong with it? I might have just got a phone call to go
back, or went to meet someone at the station, or just wanted to visit
every single DLR station. Nothing illegeal so far, and nobody can
prove me anything, unless they check CCTV.

But anyway, for the most important question - is this time limit 2
hours?

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On 30 May 2007 13:19:22 -0700, Mr Thant
wrote:

If the ticket inspector stops you on the journey back they may get
suspicious about what you're playing at, although it's not clear if
they're likely to do anything about it.

Would they? ISTR that the Oyster-checking devices used by DLR can
only give a red or green light and don't have any other sort of
display. That being the case, all they can determine is that you've
touched in validly.

(It's notable that the Dutch Strippenkaart specifically allows return
journeys completed within an hour (in practice up to 1h15) from
stamping. Perhaps it would be easier for Oyster to allow it as so few
people are likely to take advantage?)

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

[Michael Hoffman]
If you don't touch out and then back in again at Canary Wharf, you could
be done for fare evasion.

[XmaX]
I suppose you're right, but how can anybody know that I am evading?
OK, it might look a bit strange that I went there and then I go back,
but what's wrong with it? I might have just got a phone call to go
back, or went to meet someone at the station, or just wanted to visit
every single DLR station. Nothing illegeal so far, and nobody can
prove me anything, unless they check CCTV.

Well you'll have your shopping on you, so that's one way. ;)

Another way is if you were caught not touching in or out by an
undercover inspector. Or if, when questioned on the train about your
anomalous touch-in, a witness stepped up. Or they could have CCTV tapes
checked if there are any.
--
Michael Hoffman

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On May 30, 9:35 pm, "dB" wrote:
If it is, then it adds a nice feature to travelling to DLR and other
stations without the barriers. I can just go to Canary Wharf shopping
centre, buy some stuff, and go back, paying just 1 quid (i live in
Z2). Is there anything that can go wrong in this method? Any exception
from entering and exiting at the same station etc.?

You'll be charged two maximum fares - one for your outbound journey and one
for your return.



It may depend on the station and how it's programmed. A few months
ago, forgetting that I was on pay as you go instead of travelcard, I
avoided a blockage at Euston by being waved in through the open gate
by a member of staff and didn't think of touching.

On the train I realised that I hadn't touched in and might face the
penalty.

I got off at Bank (roughly as planned), went via the DLR platform and
touched "in" at the mysterious DLR pads, then went up the escalator
and out through the barrier at Monument, where I was charged for a
single journey in zone 1.

Where I was meant to have been I don't know.

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On 30 May, 22:18, Michael Hoffman wrote:

Well you'll have your shopping on you, so that's one way. ;)

Another way is if you were caught not touching in or out by an
undercover inspector. Or if, when questioned on the train about your
anomalous touch-in, a witness stepped up. Or they could have CCTV tapes
checked if there are any.
--
Michael Hoffman

Yes of course, you can use these methods, but i suppose it's unlikely
they would just check andy analyse CCTV footage to check who didn't
touch out, and then to try to find him not touching in. Also, in
Canary Wharf station, there are just so many Oyster readers all over
the place, that undercover inspectors job would be extremely hard.

Shopping is a good point, but you can always put stuff to your
backpack (which I usually do) :D

Also, regarding to time limit, I found this:
"The two-hour Maximum Journey Time (MJT) was determined when Pay As
You Go (PAYG) was launched on the basis that Journey Planner didn't
quote any journey on the Tube and DLR taking longer than this." -
http://www.ealingtimes.co.uk/oyster/weekone/

That means that I can go shopping or just walk around for more than an
hour for the price of a single fare :D

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

XmaX wrote:

Yes of course, you can use these methods, but i suppose it's unlikely
they would just check andy analyse CCTV footage to check who didn't
touch out, and then to try to find him not touching in.

You'd think that, wouldn't you?
--
Michael Hoffman

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On 30 May 2007 16:19:52 -0700, XmaX wrote:

Also, regarding to time limit, I found this:
"The two-hour Maximum Journey Time (MJT) was determined when Pay As
You Go (PAYG) was launched on the basis that Journey Planner didn't
quote any journey on the Tube and DLR taking longer than this." -
http://www.ealingtimes.co.uk/oyster/weekone/

Although (IIRC) it reckons Epping to Chesham takes 1hr57, and that's
assuming no delays and only having to wait 4 minutes for the
half-hourly Chesham shuttle. (Also, I think it's measured from the
moment the train leaves Epping, rather than the moment you touch in.)

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

Michael Hoffman wrote:

Well you'll have your shopping on you, so that's one way. ;)

Is it permissible to go shopping while transferring from DLR to Jubilee?

Assuming the answer is yes ...

What happens if, after doing your shopping but before entering the
Jubilee station, your plans change and you have to go back to DLR?

(Come to think of it, if you're making that transfer, are you supposed
to touch out at the DLR station or not? And in the opposite direction,
are you supposed to touch in?)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

MIG wrote:

It may depend on the station and how it's programmed. A few months
ago, forgetting that I was on pay as you go instead of travelcard, I
avoided a blockage at Euston by being waved in through the open gate
by a member of staff and didn't think of touching.

On the train I realised that I hadn't touched in and might face the
penalty.

I got off at Bank (roughly as planned), went via the DLR platform and
touched "in" at the mysterious DLR pads, then went up the escalator
and out through the barrier at Monument, where I was charged for a
single journey in zone 1.

Where I was meant to have been I don't know.

And I assume you checked your journey history at the earliest possible
opportunity?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 23:57:30 -0400, David of Broadway
wrote:

Michael Hoffman wrote:

Well you'll have your shopping on you, so that's one way. ;)

Is it permissible to go shopping while transferring from DLR to Jubilee?

This is the very question I had, although I was considering the change
from D/P to H&C at Hammersmith. I think someone said something about
15 minutes being permissible for the OSI. Now, as it happens, I have
an annual Travelcard, so the point is moot, but I have been known to
pop into Tesco in the Broadway[*] every now and again.
[*] And if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere :-)

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On May 31, 4:57 am, David of Broadway
wrote:
MIG wrote:
It may depend on the station and how it's programmed. A few months
ago, forgetting that I was on pay as you go instead of travelcard, I
avoided a blockage at Euston by being waved in through the open gate
by a member of staff and didn't think of touching.

On the train I realised that I hadn't touched in and might face the
penalty.

I got off at Bank (roughly as planned), went via the DLR platform and
touched "in" at the mysterious DLR pads, then went up the escalator
and out through the barrier at Monument, where I was charged for a
single journey in zone 1.

Where I was meant to have been I don't know.

And I assume you checked your journey history at the earliest possible
opportunity?



I don't get many opportunities to do that, and I'd been charged the
right amount for what I'd actually done, so I wasn't really bothered.

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On 30 May, 20:37, XmaX wrote:
Hi, I recently heard that from the moment of touching in, I have 2
hours to touch out, otherwise I will pay the penalty for not touching
out. Is that true?

I heard they upped it to 3 hours even, but I'm actually not sure about
that.


But I'm quite sure you're completely safe when you do this. It might
not be the right way of doing it, but there's no (practical /
realistic)way they can find this out.

Last weekend I had to bring some of my friends to the Stansted
Express. I didn't want to pay for two single trips, the normal way of
doing this is going Manor House to Liverpool Street (Victoria Line
partly closed and the trains not stopping at Tottenham Hale, grr) and
Liverpool Street back to Manor house. Instead, I touched in at Manor
House, did not go through the gate at Liverpool Street, and touched
out at Finsbury Park, which is close enough to where I had to be.
So the only thing registered here is a zone 2 to zone 2 trip for a
pound. I don't really feel like this is fare-dodging, although the
trip wouldn't make sense if they checked my Oyster on the way back.

This wouldn't work if you try and enter and exit at the same station,
though.

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

sweek wrote:
On 30 May, 20:37, XmaX wrote:
Hi, I recently heard that from the moment of touching in, I have 2
hours to touch out, otherwise I will pay the penalty for not
touching out. Is that true?

I heard they upped it to 3 hours even, but I'm actually not sure
about that.


But I'm quite sure you're completely safe when you do this. It might
not be the right way of doing it, but there's no (practical /
realistic)way they can find this out.

Last weekend I had to bring some of my friends to the Stansted
Express. I didn't want to pay for two single trips, the normal way
of doing this is going Manor House to Liverpool Street (Victoria
Line partly closed and the trains not stopping at Tottenham Hale,
grr) and Liverpool Street back to Manor house. Instead, I touched
in at Manor House, did not go through the gate at Liverpool Street,
and touched out at Finsbury Park, which is close enough to where I
had to be.
So the only thing registered here is a zone 2 to zone 2 trip for a
pound. I don't really feel like this is fare-dodging,

Of course it is! You deliberately travelled through Zone 1.

Also, if you "had to" take some of your friends to the Stansted Express,
they must have thought you a bit unfriendly to just dump them on the LU
side of the gates and leave them to find Stansted Express on their own,
just because you wanted to save money by defrauding LU.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

Richard J. wrote:
sweek wrote:
On 30 May, 20:37, XmaX wrote:
Hi, I recently heard that from the moment of touching in, I have 2
hours to touch out, otherwise I will pay the penalty for not
touching out. Is that true?

I heard they upped it to 3 hours even, but I'm actually not sure
about that.


But I'm quite sure you're completely safe when you do this. It might
not be the right way of doing it, but there's no (practical /
realistic)way they can find this out.

Last weekend I had to bring some of my friends to the Stansted
Express. I didn't want to pay for two single trips, the normal way
of doing this is going Manor House to Liverpool Street (Victoria
Line partly closed and the trains not stopping at Tottenham Hale,
grr) and Liverpool Street back to Manor house. Instead, I touched
in at Manor House, did not go through the gate at Liverpool Street,
and touched out at Finsbury Park, which is close enough to where I
had to be.
So the only thing registered here is a zone 2 to zone 2 trip for a
pound. I don't really feel like this is fare-dodging,

Of course it is! You deliberately travelled through Zone 1.

Also, if you "had to" take some of your friends to the Stansted Express,
they must have thought you a bit unfriendly to just dump them on the LU
side of the gates and leave them to find Stansted Express on their own,
just because you wanted to save money by defrauding LU.

Is there a way for him to buy a single ticket on Oyster that is not
fraudulent for this journey? On a paper ticket I assume he would be fine
with a Zone 12 single.

I've gone to Gloucester Road before to gawk at the art installation that
TfL was advertising all over the system. When I did this I was on a
Travelcard, but if I were using PAYG how could I be sure to avoid fare
evasion or a double maximum fare?
--
Michael Hoffman

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

Richard J. wrote:

Of course it is! You deliberately travelled through Zone 1.

Also, if you "had to" take some of your friends to the Stansted Express,
they must have thought you a bit unfriendly to just dump them on the LU
side of the gates and leave them to find Stansted Express on their own,
just because you wanted to save money by defrauding LU.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)
I travelled through zone 1, but at the same time I travelled from a
zone 2 to a zone 2 station, and LU just calculates the fare between
the two. If I travel from Ladbroke Grove to Earl's Court, it sees that
as a zone 2 to zone 2 journey as well. If I take the H&C to Edgware
Road and change for the District/Circle there to get to Earl's Court,
I would've also travelled through zone 1 without paying for it. Would
that be wrong?

Anyway, my friends were more than happy that I took them there and
showed them where to walk to exactly, and understood that I wanted to
save myself some money here.

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On May 31, 10:03 am, "Richard J." wrote:
Of course it is! You deliberately travelled through Zone 1.

Also, if you "had to" take some of your friends to the Stansted Express,
they must have thought you a bit unfriendly to just dump them on the LU
side of the gates and leave them to find Stansted Express on their own,
just because you wanted to save money by defrauding LU

Unlike the DLR example (where failing to touch out is deliberate
fraud, although possibly not in a legal sense), I don't think he's
doing anything wrong here. As long as you use the Oyster pads where
provided, the fare calculated by the system is always authoritative,
and the zones travelled through are only advisory. This will be the
case until they add a "by a reasonable, direct route" clause to the
Oyster rules.

U

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On May 31, 4:57 am, David of Broadway
wrote:

Is it permissible to go shopping while transferring from DLR to Jubilee?

Yes, but if you spend more than 15 mins outside the barriers it counts
as 2 separate journeys.

What happens if, after doing your shopping but before entering the
Jubilee station, your plans change and you have to go back to DLR?

I think you get charged for two journeys even if there's only a few
seconds between touching out and touching back in.

(Come to think of it, if you're making that transfer, are you supposed
to touch out at the DLR station or not? And in the opposite direction,
are you supposed to touch in?)

The rules say that you should, yes. I think the general advice is to
touch in and out every time you enter/leave the Oyster fares area (ie
TfL property), although this gets very complicated at places like
Stratford.

U

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

James Farrar wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 23:57:30 -0400, David of Broadway
wrote:

Michael Hoffman wrote:

Well you'll have your shopping on you, so that's one way. ;)
Is it permissible to go shopping while transferring from DLR to Jubilee?

This is the very question I had, although I was considering the change
from D/P to H&C at Hammersmith. I think someone said something about
15 minutes being permissible for the OSI.

That question sounds familiar.

Now, as it happens, I have
an annual Travelcard, so the point is moot, but I have been known to
pop into Tesco in the Broadway[*] every now and again.

[*] And if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere :-)

I confess that, on 14 July 2005, I made that transfer for the first
time, and I purchased a bottle of water at that very Tesco!

Although I did hit my daily cap later that day, so I guess it wouldn't
have mattered had I been charged for two separate trips.

FWIW, in New York (where out-of-system transfers are permitted from bus
to bus, bus to subway, and subway to bus), one is explicitly permitted
to run errands during the transfer period. The time limit is 2 hours
(plus an 18-minute grace period to allow for unsynchronized clocks) from
the time of initial entry swipe to the time of the second entry swipe
(we have no exit swipes, as you know). When intermodal MetroCard
transfers were first introduced, the advertising explicitly mentioned
that, for short trips that can be made by either subway or (single) bus,
a round-trip could now be made on MetroCard for a single fare (go one
way by bus and the other way by subway). In 2001, two out-of-system
subway interchanges were implemented; since we don't have exit swipes,
they effectively allow free entry into four stations (63/Lex, 59/Lex,
45th Road, and Court Square/23-Ely) within two hours of initial entry.
So if you enjoy shopping at Bloomingdale's (at 59th and Lex), and you
don't take too long, you can make your round trip, by subway in both
directions, on a single fare.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

Richard J. wrote:
sweek wrote:
Last weekend I had to bring some of my friends to the Stansted
Express. I didn't want to pay for two single trips, the normal way
of doing this is going Manor House to Liverpool Street (Victoria
Line partly closed and the trains not stopping at Tottenham Hale,
grr) and Liverpool Street back to Manor house. Instead, I touched
in at Manor House, did not go through the gate at Liverpool Street,
and touched out at Finsbury Park, which is close enough to where I
had to be.
So the only thing registered here is a zone 2 to zone 2 trip for a
pound. I don't really feel like this is fare-dodging,

Of course it is! You deliberately travelled through Zone 1.

So? He was using Oyster. We decided in an earlier thread that some
trips are defined as being not-via-Z1, but that if you use your Oyster
to make those trips via Z1, you haven't broken any rules, even though
the system will only charge you the not-via-Z1 price.

Now, certainly, this isn't quite the same, since Liverpool Street is not
on the way from Manor House to Finsbury Park by any stretch of the
imagination. But it's not entirely obvious to me that this is any more
fraudulent than deliberately traveling from Tottenham Hale to Canary
Wharf via Z1 even though you know that you're not going to be charged
the via-Z1 price.

In New York, which has a flat per-trip price, is it fraudulent to ride
around the system all day on a single fare, without exiting until the
end of the day?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On 30 May 2007 13:19:22 -0700, Mr Thant
wrote:

If the ticket inspector stops you on the journey back they may get
suspicious about what you're playing at, although it's not clear if
they're likely to do anything about it.

Would they? ISTR that the Oyster-checking devices used by DLR can
only give a red or green light and don't have any other sort of
display. That being the case, all they can determine is that you've
touched in validly.

(It's notable that the Dutch Strippenkaart specifically allows return
journeys completed within an hour (in practice up to 1h15) from
stamping. Perhaps it would be easier for Oyster to allow it as so few
people are likely to take advantage?)

When Nottingham buses stopped running cross-city routes some years ago, and
terminated all buses in the city centre, they introduced a (then) £1 through
fare, allowing you to get on a second bus without paying again within an
hour of starting the first journey. This was so as not to significantly
disadvantage people making a cross city journey. However, it was still very
useful for those small number of occasions when one just needed to pop into
the city centre very quickly for something, and then return on the same
ticket.

Michael



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

In message .com of
Thu, 31 May 2007 01:39:44 in uk.transport.london, sweek
writes
On 30 May, 20:37, XmaX wrote:
Hi, I recently heard that from the moment of touching in, I have 2
hours to touch out, otherwise I will pay the penalty for not touching
out. Is that true?

I heard they upped it to 3 hours even, but I'm actually not sure about
that.

Within the last month, I was travelling round the network with no need
to leave it. A duration of 2.15 attracted an exceptional charge; 1.57
did not. I think the limit is 2 hours which was what was quoted by the
Oyster telephone help line. A long time ago, I saw documentation of such
limits but such documentation seems absent now.
--
Walter Briscoe

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On 31 May 2007 03:58:52 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:

Is it permissible to go shopping while transferring from DLR to Jubilee?

Yes, but if you spend more than 15 mins outside the barriers it counts
as 2 separate journeys.

Has anyone actually verified this 15 minute limit? In the early(ish)
days of pre-pay, I took a 25-minute OSI between Baker Street and
Marylebone, and was still charged for one journey. (However,
Marylebone may be a special exception, as you have to wait outside the
barriers until your train is announced.)

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:35:24 +0100, dB wrote:

If it is, then it adds a nice feature to travelling to DLR and other
stations without the barriers. I can just go to Canary Wharf shopping
centre, buy some stuff, and go back, paying just 1 quid (i live in
Z2). Is there anything that can go wrong in this method? Any exception
from entering and exiting at the same station etc.?

You'll be charged two maximum fares - one for your outbound journey and one
for your return.

Correct. In a recent article in the London Lite (which I mentioned at
the time), it was stated that if you touch in at a station and then
touch out at the same station within 15 minutes, you are not charged.
If more than 15 minutes has passed, you are charged two maximum fares,
totalling £8.

Time limit for Oyster PayG journey
 

Correct. In a recent article in the London Lite (which I mentioned at
the time), it was stated that if you touch in at a station and then
touch out at the same station within 15 minutes, you are not charged.
If more than 15 minutes has passed, you are charged two maximum fares,
totalling £8.

So in other words, you cannot end your journey where you start it? If
that's true, then it's the most stupid thing in the TFL fare system.
What if I go somewhere and after 10 minutes realise that I forgot
something and decide to go back - I would be charged £8. And, if I go
one more station, then I'll pay just the single fare.

As an example:
Bow Church - Canary Wharf without touching out and in - Bow Church -
£8 ?
Bow Church - Canary Wharf without touching out and in - Pudding Mill
Lane - £1
Is that correct then?

Then what if:
Bow Church - Canary Wharf without touching out and in - Bow Church
(touch out) - transfer to Bow Road (touch in) - exit at Bow Road
(touch out)?