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London vs New York
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:33:15 -0400, David of Broadway wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: Not exactly. (But impressively close for someone who doesn't ride the buses in question!) MTA New York City Transit has operated a large number of express routes between Staten Island and Manhattan and several express routes between Queens and Manhattan and between Brooklyn and Manhattan for decades. (There's also an express route between Queens and the Bronx, but that's an anomaly.) OK - I was going from memory and failed to load up a MTA Bus Map ;-) The various city-subsidized private bus operators operated many local routes in Queens and Brooklyn, along with express routes between Queens and Manhattan, Brooklyn and Manhattan, and the Bronx and Manhattan. Those routes were recently taken over by the newly formed MTA Bus. I knew I'd got a bit of it correct. - What are New York's night buses like? Not dissimilar to the concept used in London - i.e. 24 hour service on key corridors. There is not the same need as in London for longer distance routes as the Subway is 24 hours in NYC. Generally, New York doesn't have any specific night buses. Some bus routes run all night - that's all. But many of London's routes are now on exactly this basis - the daytime route but running all night. Yes, but the difference is that London has separate night-only bus routes as well as 24-hour bus routes. New York, basically, simply has 24-hour bus routes. -- Stephen Is that all I was to you, a one-bite stand? |
London vs New York
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:11:42 +0100, "Stevo" wrote:
David of Broadway wrote: Michael Hoffman wrote: PigPOg wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:05:00 -0700, Nerdbird wrote: This web site may be of interest to the visitor to London. The Underground and taxis are discussed. http://hometown.aol.com/nerdbird1/LondonNYC.html Found this site very interesting. I'm a Londoner yet know nothing of NYC. I've never been able to find (or have someone explain) the Uptown/Downtown concept. I mean, where exactly is Uptown New York? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uptown%2C_Manhattan This New Yorker suspects that that page was not written by a New Yorker. It's not accurate in the slightest. (But I'm too lazy fix it, so I really have no right to complain.) In my experience, entries in Wikipedia are more often wrong than right. This is mostly because there's a whole lot of unsourced crap that it is best to ignore completely. The good stuff is often very, very good indeed. |
London vs New York
Michael Hoffman wrote:
There is certainly a downtown and a midtown though. Where does midtown stop? I would have said 59th Street. That doesn't mean that anyone calls the Upper East/West Side "Uptown" though. There's no hard line, but 59th Street is as good a border as any. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
sweek wrote:
A point where I think London does much better is connections between lines. There are quite a few cross-platform ones, and walks between stops seem to be shorter. There also seem to be more of them. New York for example, has so many lines crossing each other in Western Brooklyn without any connections between them. I'm afraid I strongly disagree. New York probably has more cross-platform transfers than London, and transfers that aren't don't usually involve long walks through endless mazes of narrow passageways. The downtown Brooklyn situation is annoying, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. The IRT and BMT have several connection points. It's the IND that's mostly left out. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, David of Broadway wrote: The statements about your lack of express services were probably referring to the Underground, where they're largely accurate, except on the western Piccadilly and Metropolitan. Strictly speaking, that're true, but my point was that NR trains act as expresses for LU lines in some situations. For example, the Great Northern from King's Cross, which only has stations north of Finsbury Park (if you forget about Moorgate and all that) is the express service of the northeastern Piccadilly. The London, Tilbury and Southend line is the express service of the eastern District. Other lines don't have such close correspondence to LU lines, but often serve overlapping areas at the edge of town, providing a quicker service in. And we in New York have the LIRR between Jamaica and Penn Station and Metro-North between various points in the Bronx and Grand Central. (Granted, the subway has substantially lower fares.) In New York, I might hop on a 1 local train at 116th Street, transfer to the 2/3 express at 96th Street, transfer back to the 1 local at 14th Street, and get off at Houston Street. (Whether I save any time in the process is a different question - in my experience, depending on the time of day, it could jump me ahead one or two locals. OTOH, if there's a long wait for the express, I might not even catch the local I started on.) Or maybe I'm taking a relatively short trip, one for which the time savings on the express are minimal. I can simply take whichever train comes first, since the local and express stop at the same station, usually at the same platform. Or if a train breaks down on one track, the following trains can be rerouted around it on the other track. The resulting congestion is sometimes painful, and local passengers may have to backtrack, but at least the trains can keep moving. And, as has been pointed out elsewhere, parallel tracks make track work much easier to carry out while the trains are still running. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
James Farrar wrote:
The greatest advantage of the four-track system [1] is that it allows 24-hour running. The express trains often save you less time than you might think. Another advantage is capacity. A four-track line can carry (roughly) twice as many trains per hour as a two-track line. [1] Well, it mostly is... I was particularly intrigued by the three-track layout on the 7 in Queens... Many lines have three tracks, although only a few actually have regular service scheduled to run on the middle track. On the others, the middle track is still available for scheduled and unscheduled reroutes. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:33:15 -0400, David of Broadway wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: Not exactly. (But impressively close for someone who doesn't ride the buses in question!) MTA New York City Transit has operated a large number of express routes between Staten Island and Manhattan and several express routes between Queens and Manhattan and between Brooklyn and Manhattan for decades. (There's also an express route between Queens and the Bronx, but that's an anomaly.) OK - I was going from memory and failed to load up a MTA Bus Map ;-) You are excused. The various city-subsidized private bus operators operated many local routes in Queens and Brooklyn, along with express routes between Queens and Manhattan, Brooklyn and Manhattan, and the Bronx and Manhattan. Those routes were recently taken over by the newly formed MTA Bus. I knew I'd got a bit of it correct. You got a lot of it correct! - What are New York's night buses like? Not dissimilar to the concept used in London - i.e. 24 hour service on key corridors. There is not the same need as in London for longer distance routes as the Subway is 24 hours in NYC. Generally, New York doesn't have any specific night buses. Some bus routes run all night - that's all. But many of London's routes are now on exactly this basis - the daytime route but running all night. In that way the two systems are similar. London is now catching up with NYC with its never ending variants of what line or station is open or closed at any point in time! I think I'd struggle to cope with a Subway system that is subject to such frequent change to its operating pattern. Catching up? With three exceptions, every single subway station in New York is open around the clock. (The three exceptions are the two northernmost stations on the 3, which are replaced by bus service at night, and Broad Street on the J/M/Z, which is closed on weekends, when the J is cut back to Chambers Street.) What I meant was that with the scale of work going on in London we have almost as long lists of what is open, what is half open, closed and what is replaced by a bus as NYC used to have for its subway system. I wasn't alluding for a moment to our system being open 24 hours which it demonstrably is not (for LU). There are a few exceptions on rail routes. But London also has a good number of stations that have strange hours. Closed weekends. Rush hours only. Rush hours and Sunday mornings only. Open for exit and interchange only at certain times. Etc. But our route patterns can certainly get confusing. Err yes. While I know you've had to close large sections of the network for rehabilitation works I do find it quite odd that the route and service pattern changes as much as it does. Rather than address this directly, allow me to present you with a challenge: Study the current service pattern (the guide on the lower left-hand corner of the subway map is a good place to start; ask me if you have any questions) and, for as much of the network as you choose to tackle, come up with something simpler that still provides good service. I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with. The statements about your lack of express services were probably referring to the Underground, where they're largely accurate, except on the western Piccadilly and Metropolitan. I don't think they were. The website author mentioned rail rather than Tube or Subway. No, I think he's referring to subway/Underground: "New York subway cars are air conditioned. Not so in London where global warming is making it quite unbearable at times. New York has express trains which is nice if you live at the far end of Brooklyn, Queens or the Bronx. London has no express trains. Every train stops at every station. New York is more of a 24 hour city. The subway runs through the niight and does not shut down after midnight as does the London system. The subway serves the large numbers of graveyard shift workers, party people and night time weirdos. Even muggers and rapists have to get home in the wee hours.and the New York transit system respects the needs of all." Don't forget Gants Hill and Barkingside. Not as obviously orthodox as GG or SH but plenty of Jewish businesses and synagogues. Also Hendon and Edgware. True but really just a continuation of the Golders Green area. Geographically, yes, but the neighbo(u)rhoods seem to be distinct. I've met several people here from the Hendon and Edgware Jewish communities, and they've identified themselves as being from Hendon and Edgware, not Golders Green, even before ascertaining whether I'm at all familiar with London geography. (I didn't realize Gants Hill and Barkingside were Jewish. The various lists of kosher restaurants that I consulted didn't include any in those neighbo(u)rhoods.) Well there's certainly a synagogue and a range of kosher businesses that follow Sabbath opening and closing rules. Can't think of a kosher restaurant in the area but I'm just commenting from what I've seen from the bus. I'll keep them in mind for my next visit! -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:06:47 -0400, David of Broadway
wrote: But London also has a good number of stations that have strange hours. Closed weekends. Just Cannon Street now, is it not? Rush hours only. Rush hours and Sunday mornings only. Can't think of an example of either of these. Open for exit and interchange only at certain times. Etc. Ah, yes. Camden Town and Covent Garden - the latter mainly because people refuse to actually look at a map and see that Covent Garden is very close at street level to various other stations not on the Piccadilly line, leading to almost everyone going there cramming through the tiny station. |
London vs New York
In message , James Farrar
writes On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:06:47 -0400, David of Broadway wrote: But London also has a good number of stations that have strange hours. Closed weekends. Just Cannon Street now, is it not? Rush hours only. Rush hours and Sunday mornings only. Can't think of an example of either of these. This used to apply to Shoreditch (and still does for the replacement bus) but that's for the special reason of the Sunday Markets. Open for exit and interchange only at certain times. Etc. Ah, yes. Camden Town and Covent Garden - the latter mainly because people refuse to actually look at a map and see that Covent Garden is very close at street level to various other stations not on the Piccadilly line, leading to almost everyone going there cramming through the tiny station. I don't think they actually close Coventry Garden on Saturday afternoons any more, do they? (Checks TfL site: no they don't; the Tube Map simply states that the station gets very busy and suggests alternatives.) They certainly do at Camden Town on Sundays, though. And of course at stations around Notting Hill during the Carnival and such like. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
London vs New York
Ian Jelf wrote:
I don't think they actually close Coventry Garden on Saturday afternoons any more, do they? (Checks TfL site: no they don't; the Tube Map simply states that the station gets very busy and suggests alternatives.) Covent Garden is 'Way Out only' at all times until the end of the year. -- Bob |
London vs New York
In message , Bob Wood
writes Ian Jelf wrote: I don't think they actually close Coventry Garden on Saturday afternoons any more, do they? (Checks TfL site: no they don't; the Tube Map simply states that the station gets very busy and suggests alternatives.) Covent Garden is 'Way Out only' at all times until the end of the year. *Really*?! Then it shows that TfL's encouragement to use other stations to get there works; despite spending a lot of time in CG it's ages since I've used the tube station there! Interestingly, there's nothing to this effect on the downloadable Tube Map (which was where I checked for my original posting). I had to go to Live Travel News to find the closure. (Not that I didn't believe you, Bob!) -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
London vs New York
In message , Ian Jelf
writes In message , Bob Wood writes Covent Garden is 'Way Out only' at all times until the end of the year. *Really*?! Then it shows that TfL's encouragement to use other stations to get there works; The reason is actually because TfL are currently enlarging the ticket hall and providing five new exit gates, which also means that there is currently no room for either ticket machines or a ticket office, hence the station is exit only until December. Its the second stage in the improvement plan announced a couple of years ago (the first being improved signage). The third stage, if it goes ahead, will be the addition of a second ticket hall and more lifts, or possibly escalators. -- Paul Terry |
London vs New York
David of Broadway wrote:
Catching up? With three exceptions, every single subway station in New York is open around the clock. (The three exceptions are the two northernmost stations on the 3, which are replaced by bus service at night, and Broad Street on the J/M/Z, which is closed on weekends, when the J is cut back to Chambers Street.) Actually, there's a fourth exception: the Aqueduct Racetrack station is only open when the racetrack itself is open. And southbound trains never stop there, since the platform is on the northbound side, adjacent to the racetrack. Good thing the Aqueduct-N. Conduit Boulevard station is so close by. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
James Farrar wrote:
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:06:47 -0400, David of Broadway wrote: But London also has a good number of stations that have strange hours. Closed weekends. Just Cannon Street now, is it not? Also Barbican, no? Or is Barbican open Saturdays but closed Sundays? I forget. Rush hours only. Rush hours and Sunday mornings only. Can't think of an example of either of these. For the former, Aldwych and the entire Ongar line. For the latter, Shoreditch. Of course, all are in the past tense. Open for exit and interchange only at certain times. Etc. Ah, yes. Camden Town and Covent Garden - the latter mainly because people refuse to actually look at a map and see that Covent Garden is very close at street level to various other stations not on the Piccadilly line, leading to almost everyone going there cramming through the tiny station. But the Underground map doesn't show distances at street level! I'm not questioning the reasons for the anomalies. Even if they've been instituted for the best of reasons, an anomaly is still a potential point of confusion, especially if in an area frequented by tourists and other irregular users. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
In message , David of Broadway
writes Also Barbican, no? Or is Barbican open Saturdays but closed Sundays? I forget. Barbican has been open 7 days a week for many years now. -- Paul Terry |
London vs New York
On 1 Aug, 04:53, David of Broadway
wrote: Many lines have three tracks, although only a few actually have regular service scheduled to run on the middle track. On the others, the middle track is still available for scheduled and unscheduled reroutes. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA How does that work, exactly? I thought the third track was always used for express services in the peak direction. |
London vs New York
sweek wrote:
On 1 Aug, 04:53, David of Broadway wrote: Many lines have three tracks, although only a few actually have regular service scheduled to run on the middle track. On the others, the middle track is still available for scheduled and unscheduled reroutes. How does that work, exactly? I thought the third track was always used for express services in the peak direction. On some lines (the Flushing line, the Pelham line, the lower White Plains Road line, the Concourse line, and part of the Broadway-Brooklyn line), the middle track indeed carries express trains in the peak direction, either rush hours only or also middays on weekdays. Other lines (the West End line, the Sea Beach line, the Culver line, part of the Broadway-Brooklyn line, both segments of the Upper Broadway line, the upper White Plains Road line, and the Jerome Avenue line) don't have any regularly scheduled express service, but the middle track is still available if necessary - for instance, to run around a stalled train on the local track or to allow for weekend track work on the local track. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
Paul Terry wrote:
In message , David of Broadway writes Also Barbican, no? Or is Barbican open Saturdays but closed Sundays? I forget. Barbican has been open 7 days a week for many years now. Excellent! I never understood that closure. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, David of Broadway wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, David of Broadway wrote: The statements about your lack of express services were probably referring to the Underground, where they're largely accurate, except on the western Piccadilly and Metropolitan. Strictly speaking, that're true, but my point was that NR trains act as expresses for LU lines in some situations. For example, the Great Northern from King's Cross, which only has stations north of Finsbury Park (if you forget about Moorgate and all that) is the express service of the northeastern Piccadilly. The London, Tilbury and Southend line is the express service of the eastern District. Other lines don't have such close correspondence to LU lines, but often serve overlapping areas at the edge of town, providing a quicker service in. And we in New York have the LIRR between Jamaica and Penn Station and Metro-North between various points in the Bronx and Grand Central. (Granted, the subway has substantially lower fares.) Absolutely. I wasn't for a moment trying to imply that London had something that New York didn't - perish the thought! Just that it doesn't give a complete view to say that London has no expresses, as this implies that wherever you are, you're looking at a one-stop-each-and-every-500-metres ride into town. In New York, I might hop on a 1 local train at 116th Street, transfer to the 2/3 express at 96th Street, transfer back to the 1 local at 14th Street, and get off at Houston Street. (Whether I save any time in the process is a different question - in my experience, depending on the time of day, it could jump me ahead one or two locals. OTOH, if there's a long wait for the express, I might not even catch the local I started on.) Or maybe I'm taking a relatively short trip, one for which the time savings on the express are minimal. I can simply take whichever train comes first, since the local and express stop at the same station, usually at the same platform. Or if a train breaks down on one track, the following trains can be rerouted around it on the other track. The resulting congestion is sometimes painful, and local passengers may have to backtrack, but at least the trains can keep moving. And, as has been pointed out elsewhere, parallel tracks make track work much easier to carry out while the trains are still running. Yes, yes, i'm not debating the superiority of the NYC system. Merely making an observation about London! I really do wish we had the kind of robustness multi-tracking affords, though. Even bidirectional signalling and a few more crossovers would be something. tom -- The girlfriend of my friend is my enemy. |
London vs New York
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
On Jul 31, 5:04 pm, James Farrar wrote: The greatest advantage of the four-track system [1] is that it allows 24-hour running. I don't think this is actually as important as it's made out to be. The system has a lot of two track sections that are also 24 hour, and even in the four track sections one pair is generally in use 24 hours a day, with only occasional diversions for engineering. It'd be interesting to find out what working practices allow this and whether they could be applied in London. I would also like to know this. tom -- The girlfriend of my friend is my enemy. |
London vs New York
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, David of Broadway wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, David of Broadway wrote: The statements about your lack of express services were probably referring to the Underground, where they're largely accurate, except on the western Piccadilly and Metropolitan. Strictly speaking, that're true, but my point was that NR trains act as expresses for LU lines in some situations. For example, the Great Northern from King's Cross, which only has stations north of Finsbury Park (if you forget about Moorgate and all that) is the express service of the northeastern Piccadilly. The London, Tilbury and Southend line is the express service of the eastern District. Other lines don't have such close correspondence to LU lines, but often serve overlapping areas at the edge of town, providing a quicker service in. And we in New York have the LIRR between Jamaica and Penn Station and Metro-North between various points in the Bronx and Grand Central. (Granted, the subway has substantially lower fares.) Absolutely. I wasn't for a moment trying to imply that London had something that New York didn't - perish the thought! London has lots of things that New York doesn't! Just that it doesn't give a complete view to say that London has no expresses, as this implies that wherever you are, you're looking at a one-stop-each-and-every-500-metres ride into town. Agreed completely. Yes, yes, i'm not debating the superiority of the NYC system. Merely making an observation about London! I don't think NYC's system is necessarily superior in all ways. For instance, it's been mentioned in this thread that NYC's route structure can be quite confusing. I really do wish we had the kind of robustness multi-tracking affords, though. Even bidirectional signalling and a few more crossovers would be something. Yes, I certainly agree with that. It seems like whenever there's the slightest problem anywhere along a line, the entire line breaks down. (OK, I'm probably exaggerating a bit.) But on the flip side, your system is MUCH better at publicizing information regarding service outages. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
London vs New York
On Wed, Aug 01, 2007 at 07:49:56AM -0400, David of Broadway wrote:
But the Underground map doesn't show distances at street level! http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/colourmap.pdf does, for at least Covent Garden, Embankment, and Euston Square. -- David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world If you have received this email in error, please add some nutmeg and egg whites, whisk, and place in a warm oven for 40 minutes. |
London vs New York
Bob Wood wrote:
Ian Jelf wrote: I don't think they actually close Coventry Garden on Saturday afternoons any more, do they? (Checks TfL site: no they don't; the Tube Map simply states that the station gets very busy and suggests alternatives.) Covent Garden is 'Way Out only' at all times until the end of the year. Whereas Coventry Garden is *way* out! |
London vs New York
In message , John Rowland
writes Bob Wood wrote: Ian Jelf wrote: I don't think they actually close Coventry Garden on Saturday afternoons any more, do they? (Checks TfL site: no they don't; the Tube Map simply states that the station gets very busy and suggests alternatives.) Covent Garden is 'Way Out only' at all times until the end of the year. Whereas Coventry Garden is *way* out! Oops! ****Ing Spell Checkers! -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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