In message om, at
09:45:33 on Sat, 4 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:
On Aug 4, 4:51 pm, Roland Perry wrote:


Sounds great; so it's "Bank of ATOC" and not "Bank of ToC" that my money
gets debited from by whatever ToC I finish my journey at and who does
the sums about how much it should have cost to get there from where I
started. Presumably grippers on the train will do stuff like alerting
the card as one that's been used on a "savers banned" train, so I'm
charged a full open fare rather than a saver when I wave out?

As things stand at present, your money won't be debited by anyone. No-
one has yet discussed having a Pay As You Go facility on National Rail
AFAIK and that's certainly not included in the recent franchise
commitments. How many people do you think will keep their cards topped
up with a couple of hundred quid on the off-chance that they're going
to have to buy an SOR from London to Leeds?

While I agree that using one of these cards for a big purchase will
require it to be linked to a Direct Debit facility, you can get the
train from Nottingham to Derby (a typical commute in the Midlands for a
fiver - which is no more than an Oyster fare).

The intention is that you will buy your ticket in advance either
through the internet or by phone, quoting your smartcard number. When
you get to the station you'll simply tap your card on a reader to
upload the ticket.

That's a pretty lame model. Barely better than cinema tickets (and
London Eye and Eurostar) where you order online then get delivered a
paper ticket as soon as you pop your credit card in a slot (and a
contactless credit card is on the way, as we know).

How easy is it going to be to get paper receipts for these proposed
e-tickets (other than a printout form your PC, which assumes you have a
printer and are somewhat easy to forge).
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...


That's a pretty lame model. Barely better than cinema tickets (and London
Eye and Eurostar) where you order online then get delivered a paper ticket
as soon as you pop your credit card in a slot (and a contactless credit
card is on the way, as we know).

How easy is it going to be to get paper receipts for these proposed
e-tickets (other than a printout form your PC, which assumes you have a
printer and are somewhat easy to forge).

IIRC there have been a few criticisms levelled at TfL's Oyster PAYG for its
inability to provide receipts - I don't think they were ever put to bed
either...

Paul

wrote in message
k...
"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message
ups.com...
Of course, the most practical solution might be to have a chip
embedded in your arm, as they do with many pets these days. Then, not
only is there no chance of you losing your ticket or leaving it at
home, but you also cannot fraudulently transfer it to anyone else.
Furthermore, if you ever got lost and insensible, they would know
where to return you. It could also be updated while you were having a
bath by passing the signal down the water pipe.

I thought that they were trying out fingerprint technology. It would
indeed be interesting to walk through gates or onto a bus and only touch a
read pad as you go through with your thumb.

I sliced my thumb today whilst peeling the spuds and currently have a
plaster on it and a bit of a scab on my thumb print. How would i get around
that?

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:17:41 -0700, W14_Fishbourne
wrote:

On Aug 4, 8:27 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


Its interesting that you should pour cold water on PAYG, of course the
evidence from LU is that they have to charge the max fare with PAYG to
ensure people touch out. As you rightly suggest, what would the default
'entry fee' have to be for NR?

Penzance to Wick FOR?

£384, apparently

In message , at 22:21:51 on
Sat, 4 Aug 2007, Paul Scott remarked:
IIRC there have been a few criticisms levelled at TfL's Oyster PAYG for its
inability to provide receipts - I don't think they were ever put to bed
either...

You can get a printout if you queue up - but the queues at KX, the main
station where I'd do that, are disgracefully long, even now they've
rebuilt to ticket office.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

You might get to mobile phone acceptance in due course but not as
the first step and certainly not with anything like bar code readers.
FTR in York put paid to that concept.

What happened to FTR in York?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message .com,
W14_Fishbourne writes

First of all, it would require a third party bank to administer any
scheme (despite what non-lawyer above said - if he's got a way round
the legal situation he could make himself a fortune)

Above what? You didn't quote anything to give your message context so
most won't know what you're on about.

Hint: we don't all use Google groups or whatever they might be called
and there are now a myriad of messages in this thread.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 14:16 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

You might get to mobile phone acceptance in due course but not as
the first step and certainly not with anything like bar code readers.
FTR in York put paid to that concept.

What happened to FTR in York?

Well the FTR vehicles are still running on route 4 but the whizzy off
bus ticket sales and bar code on mobile phone readers have been rendered
redundant. Replaced by conductors. The Leeds scheme is also conductor
based - seems bloody daft to me given that conductors were scrapped as
being too expensive (in the 60s and 70s) because buses could
legitimately be operated with one person. If anything, cost pressures
are greater now than they were then as the revenue base of passengers is
so much smaller.

People may very well criticise London's open boarding on bendies but at
least it is pretty damn fast. The reliability of York route 4 collapsed
once FTR was introduced as the boarding times became hopelessly extended
and, of course, the driver sorry pilot cannot help as he's sealed away
in a separate compartment.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 4 Aug 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message om, at 09:45:33
on Sat, 4 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne remarked:
On Aug 4, 4:51 pm, Roland Perry wrote:

Sounds great; so it's "Bank of ATOC" and not "Bank of ToC" that my
money gets debited from by whatever ToC I finish my journey at and who
does the sums about how much it should have cost to get there from
where I started. Presumably grippers on the train will do stuff like
alerting the card as one that's been used on a "savers banned" train,
so I'm charged a full open fare rather than a saver when I wave out?

As things stand at present, your money won't be debited by anyone. No-
one has yet discussed having a Pay As You Go facility on National Rail
AFAIK and that's certainly not included in the recent franchise
commitments. How many people do you think will keep their cards topped
up with a couple of hundred quid on the off-chance that they're going
to have to buy an SOR from London to Leeds?

While I agree that using one of these cards for a big purchase will
require it to be linked to a Direct Debit facility, you can get the
train from Nottingham to Derby (a typical commute in the Midlands for a
fiver - which is no more than an Oyster fare).

I had a thought about this. Perhaps a nationwide PAYG system is
impractical, but you could set up regional PAYG zones, and have a
capability to use them as one of the 'products' on the card - each one
would work just like Oyster PAYG does at the moment in London. The
necessary deposit/penalty fare/whatever would be low enough to be
practical, but it would deliver 80% of the benefit of a national system,
as it would cover commuting and local travel.

tom

--
Love as a principle and order as the basis; progress as the goal.

"Tom Burton" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
k...
"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message
ups.com...
Of course, the most practical solution might be to have a chip
embedded in your arm, as they do with many pets these days. Then, not
only is there no chance of you losing your ticket or leaving it at
home, but you also cannot fraudulently transfer it to anyone else.
Furthermore, if you ever got lost and insensible, they would know
where to return you. It could also be updated while you were having a
bath by passing the signal down the water pipe.

I thought that they were trying out fingerprint technology. It would
indeed be interesting to walk through gates or onto a bus and only touch
a read pad as you go through with your thumb.

I sliced my thumb today whilst peeling the spuds and currently have a
plaster on it and a bit of a scab on my thumb print. How would i get
around that?

You have both your thumbs (or the full set) scanned at the time of
registration to get around this.
Where I work we have an turnstile entry gate where you swipe your staffcard
and put an index finger (either hand) on a reader to gain access to the
building. This takes a few seconds to activate but it is an old setup. Once
inside your card opens any electronically locked doors to rooms which you
have permission to enter.
Not suggesting that people should be locked out of trains because they don't
have a ticket or, as happens sometimes, the door reader won't recognise a
valid card...
I can easily imagine the scenes at Waterloo in the evening rush hour!

We have a clock-in system that reads your right hand after you enter your
employee number. Didn't help my colleague when she had her arm wrapped up in
plaster and our boss had to manually enter her details onto the pay system
every day for a month.

Nick



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