http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

On 3 Aug, 08:59, Bob wrote:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Why oh why is it assumed that everyone has a mobile ? And what happens
with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

Mrk Enderby

wrote:
On 3 Aug, 08:59, Bob wrote:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Why oh why is it assumed that everyone has a mobile ? And what happens
with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

Mrk Enderby

You get re-charged.


--
Cheers for now,

John from Harrow, Middx

remove spamnocars to reply

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:34:59 -0700, wrote:

And what happens with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

Chiltern have an FAQ page for their mobile phone ticketing:
http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/content.php?nID=165

"Q: What happens if my mobile battery goes flat before or during my
journey – or I forget / lose my phone?
A: Your mobile phone will be your 'ticket' so it is your
responsibility to look after it and have enough battery life for your
entire journey. However, our scanners will have a record of who is
expected on any particular train, so it's wise to carry additional ID
as back up.

Q: Do I need proof of identity (as well as my mobile) to get through
the barriers?
A: No. However, if you are unable to produce the correct barcode on
your phone, you may be allowed to pass if you are able to produce
additional ID."

Just to clarify, there are two separate technologies being mixed up
here.

The one that is already being used (eg on Chiltern) is for a bar code
to be sent to your mobile phone. This bar code will be read by a bar
code reader on the gateline or by a gripper with a hand-held bar code
reader. At the moment, for various reasons, this is really only
workable with pre-booked tickets so that, for example, if your battery
goes dead you are on a printed manifest that the on-train staff will
have.

The second technology will be to use a chip inside your mobile phone
which will take the place of (and remove the need for) a separate
piece of plastic called a smartcard. You will wave your phone over a
smartcard reader on the gateline in the same way that you wave a
smartcard. It doesn't matter if your battery goes flat during the
journey - the power to read the chip comes from the reader (just as
you don't have a battery in your Oyster card).

In message . com, at
06:58:50 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:
The second technology will be to use a chip inside your mobile phone
which will take the place of (and remove the need for) a separate
piece of plastic called a smartcard. You will wave your phone over a
smartcard reader on the gateline in the same way that you wave a
smartcard. It doesn't matter if your battery goes flat during the
journey - the power to read the chip comes from the reader (just as
you don't have a battery in your Oyster card).

Does this mean you have to buy a new phone, or is the RFID embedded in a
new SIM (there was mention of Orange and SIMs earlier).

I'm still struggling to understand why this is so much better than
having the same chip in a bit of plastic in your wallet (I go out
without a phone more often than without a wallet) and thread
convergence if you are using a Railcard, you need to be carrying your
wallet anyway!
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message . com, at
06:58:50 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:
The second technology will be to use a chip inside your mobile phone
which will take the place of (and remove the need for) a separate
piece of plastic called a smartcard. You will wave your phone over a
smartcard reader on the gateline in the same way that you wave a
smartcard. It doesn't matter if your battery goes flat during the
journey - the power to read the chip comes from the reader (just as
you don't have a battery in your Oyster card).

Does this mean you have to buy a new phone,

Almost certainly, Yes

or is the RFID embedded in a new SIM (there was mention of Orange and SIMs
earlier).

I'm still struggling to understand why this is so much better than having
the same chip in a bit of plastic in your wallet (I go out without a phone
more often than without a wallet) and thread convergence if you are
using a Railcard, you need to be carrying your wallet anyway!

Because it's a solution looking for a problem. The mobile
phone companies are always looking at ways of making
extra money and this "(not so) micro payment using your
phone" is the next idea that they are trying to sell.

It seems that they have managed to sell the idea to a rail
company to help them market it.

But ISTM that none of the previous attempts to sell
electronic micro payments have been accepted by the
population, it will surprise me if this one is any different.

tim

On 3 Aug, 15:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message . com, at
06:58:50 on Fri, 3 Aug 2007, W14_Fishbourne
remarked:

The second technology will be to use a chip inside your mobile phone
which will take the place of (and remove the need for) a separate
piece of plastic called a smartcard. You will wave your phone over a
smartcard reader on the gateline in the same way that you wave a
smartcard. It doesn't matter if your battery goes flat during the
journey - the power to read the chip comes from the reader (just as
you don't have a battery in your Oyster card).

Does this mean you have to buy a new phone, or is the RFID embedded in a
new SIM (there was mention of Orange and SIMs earlier).

I believe it'd be a component of the mobile phone itself - see this
link for information on a couple of Nokia models with RFID capability
in the shell of the phone:
http://www.rfid-weblog.com/50226711/...nokia_5140.php
or http://tinyurl.com/yttc3s

Of course an RFID chip need not be independent of the phone - they
could presumably be connected up so that information on the RFID could
be updated by the phone, so for example the credit in an RFID pay as
you go travel ticket (like an Oyster card) could be topped up over the
air. Of course the system could be arranged so that travel expenditure
was debited from the users mobile bill or mobile PAYG balance, without
the need for any such link. The number of various different methods
for how any such scheme might work are many.

I'd imagine that an RFID-enabled SIM might not work, as in many
mobiles the battery would present a barrier between the SIM and any
potential RFID reader in the 'outside world'.


I'm still struggling to understand why this is so much better than
having the same chip in a bit of plastic in your wallet (I go out
without a phone more often than without a wallet) and thread
convergence if you are using a Railcard, you need to be carrying your
wallet anyway!
--
Roland Perry

I share your scepticism.

The 'ticket via RFID embedded in mobile phone casing' idea is just an
extension of the concept of using RFID-in-mobile as a replacement for
cash, a kind of wave-and-pay embedded in a mobile (wave-and-pay being
the upcoming method of paying for small transactions using an RFID-
enabled credit/debit card without the need for a PIN, already in use
in the states).

I'd guess that logic is that a mobile is one item that there's a fair
guarantee that (many) people will have on their person much of the
time, which is a fair enough assumption.

However I'm not sure that people would be that willing to get their
mobile out to pay for small purchases at shops, especially if it was a
flashy new model - someone might pinch it! Likewise at a station -
especially given the advice (on signs and posters) warning people off
of using their mobiles when they get out of a station. Plus I'm not
too sure about any idea of using a mobile on automatic gates - they'd
be the constant clatter of mobiles being dropped and smashing up on
concrete floor as people lost their grip on them, especially at the
rush hour!

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message
ups.com...
Just to clarify, there are two separate technologies being mixed up
here.

The one that is already being used (eg on Chiltern) is for a bar code
to be sent to your mobile phone. This bar code will be read by a bar
code reader on the gateline or by a gripper with a hand-held bar code
reader. At the moment, for various reasons, this is really only
workable with pre-booked tickets so that, for example, if your battery
goes dead you are on a printed manifest that the on-train staff will
have.

I went to Birmingham and back on one of those tickets in February. I showed
the railway staff the ticket at Marylebone, but the gate staff looked
confused and appeared unsure on what to do. One of them eventually figured
out that you need a scanner to read this information, but they did not have
one to hand. So they sent somebody to get one, waving me through the gates
at the same time.

The conductor on the train to Birmingham had to attempt several reads on my
mobile with his scanner before getting the all clear, while the conductor
back to London simply looked at the text message and gave a nod.

Back in London, they also needed some time to figure out what to do before
actually coming up with a scanner.

wrote:
On 3 Aug, 08:59, Bob wrote:
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168037,00.htm

Of course this will mean the need for cyber gripping.

Why oh why is it assumed that everyone has a mobile ? And what happens
with a mobile ticket if your battery goes flat ?

It's not much different to expecting people not to leave their wallet at
home, is it?