Oyster Card
 

I'm just about ready to give up with this. I missed the DLR at London
City the first time I used it because the machine was hidden away in
an alcove in the entrance rather than on the platform. OK, fifteen
minutes isn't that big a deal but it rankles when you haven't been
home for three weeks. At Waterloo the thing was even better hidden so
I had to go the wrong way down an exit in order to seek it out.

The most obvious question to ask is why have it at all when a more
secure, proven and user-friendly alternative already exists? For at
least ten years now if I want to buy a ticket - including season - in
Germany or Belgium (and elsewhere I guess, these are the only places I
have had bank accounts apart from the UK) I simply insert my debit
card, select my ticket, enter my PIN and I'm sorted. No having to
search in alcoves, try and work out where the nearest machine is to
activate my payment - just pay and go. Secure too - nobody can use it
without my PIN and nobody can use the season without the right photo
card.

I don't know why it is but sometimes I think we Brits look at the way
things work elsewhere and decide that because we never invented them
they can't be any good. In Germany and Belgium, I can top up my card
and choose to purchase from the balance on the chip or from my account
for travel, purchases and telephones.

Anyway, rant over.

Can anyone tell me how I can use my Oyster Card on buses? TFL don't
seem to want to - they hint at it, presumably expecting visitors to
London to somehow understand how London transportation works. It
looks like I have to use it to buy a day ticket or something like that
though it's not at all clear. I just want to get a bus for a few
stops and then back again.

Cheers

David

Oyster Card
 

Uncle Dave wrote:

I'm just about ready to give up with this. I missed the DLR at London
City the first time I used it because the machine was hidden away in
an alcove in the entrance rather than on the platform. OK, fifteen
minutes isn't that big a deal but it rankles when you haven't been
home for three weeks. At Waterloo the thing was even better hidden so
I had to go the wrong way down an exit in order to seek it out.

It's at the gateline. How did you get in/out without using it?

The most obvious question to ask is why have it at all when a more
secure, proven and user-friendly alternative already exists? For at
least ten years now if I want to buy a ticket - including season - in
Germany or Belgium (and elsewhere I guess, these are the only places I
have had bank accounts apart from the UK) I simply insert my debit
card, select my ticket, enter my PIN and I'm sorted. No having to
search in alcoves, try and work out where the nearest machine is to
activate my payment - just pay and go.

So you just use the machine in Germany or Belgium without having to find
the machine first? How does that work, telepathy?

I don't know why it is but sometimes I think we Brits look at the way
things work elsewhere and decide that because we never invented them
they can't be any good.

An ironic statement considering how much Oyster owes to the Octopus
system of Hong Kong.

Can anyone tell me how I can use my Oyster Card on buses?

Well, the bus driver can, if you can't figure it out. Similarly, LU
stations are staffed and you can always ask someone for help.

TfL have guides here
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/2732.aspx explaining how to
use Oyster and what the advantages are for passengers.
--
Michael Hoffman

Oyster Card
 

Michael Hoffman wrote:

Uncle Dave wrote:

I'm just about ready to give up with this. I missed the DLR at London
City the first time I used it because the machine was hidden away in
an alcove in the entrance rather than on the platform. OK, fifteen
minutes isn't that big a deal but it rankles when you haven't been
home for three weeks. At Waterloo the thing was even better hidden so
I had to go the wrong way down an exit in order to seek it out.


It's at the gateline. How did you get in/out without using it?


If the OP means London City Airport and the DLR station there, it is not
gated. There is a red line painted where the "fares paid area" begins
(just like other DLR stations). The Oyster readers are placed where you
cross this line, opposit to the ticket windows. On most DLR stations I
have no problem with this but at City Airport station I have a few times
found myself standing on the platform and have forgot to touch in my
Oyster card and therefore have to carry myself and my bags etc down the
escalators again just to touch in the card.

I don't know why it happens for me just there and nowhere else on the
DLR system though.

Generally speaking, I think the fares system in London is complicated to
understand in many ways but not difficult to use. What I mean is that it
could be tough sometimes to find out exactly which fares applies to a
specific route, especially if it includes different modes of transport
etc, but once you have worked that out I don't think the tickets or
Oyster cards themselves are that complicated to get or use.

On some stations there are now machines where you can get an empty
Oyster card and add money to it at the adjacent ticket machine. There
could be more of those machines of course, but it is generally getting
better.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Oyster Card
 

Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
Michael Hoffman wrote:

Uncle Dave wrote:

I'm just about ready to give up with this. I missed the DLR at London
City the first time I used it because the machine was hidden away in
an alcove in the entrance rather than on the platform. OK, fifteen
minutes isn't that big a deal but it rankles when you haven't been
home for three weeks. At Waterloo the thing was even better hidden so
I had to go the wrong way down an exit in order to seek it out.


It's at the gateline. How did you get in/out without using it?


If the OP means London City Airport and the DLR station there, it is not
gated.

Sorry, I meant at Waterloo. I know there isn't a gateline at most DLR
stations.
--
Michael Hoffman

Oyster Card
 

Michael Hoffman wrote:
Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
Michael Hoffman wrote:

It's at the gateline. How did you get in/out without using it?


If the OP means London City Airport and the DLR station there, it is
not gated.

Sorry, I meant at Waterloo. I know there isn't a gateline at most DLR
stations.

At a guess, the OP changed from the DLR to the Waterloo & City at Bank
(probably without using the validator en route, but I digress) in which
case he wouldn't pass a gateline at Waterloo, but *would* have passed a
couple of validators.

Cheers,

Barry

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 21, 4:29 am, Barry Salter wrote:
Michael Hoffman wrote:
Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
Michael Hoffman wrote:

It's at the gateline. How did you get in/out without using it?

If the OP means London City Airport and the DLR station there, it is
not gated.

Sorry, I meant at Waterloo. I know there isn't a gateline at most DLR
stations.

At a guess, the OP changed from the DLR to the Waterloo & City at Bank
(probably without using the validator en route, but I digress) in which
case he wouldn't pass a gateline at Waterloo, but *would* have passed a
couple of validators.

Yeah I did, even though I was keeping an eye open for them. In fact,
I was up in the station before I thought (as a first time user
remember) "um, how will it know where I finished my journey" and went
back down to the tube and spotted a validator back along an exit.

Sorry guys, I got the things because I expect to be going to/through
London more often and it seemed like a good idea so I do want to use
it. Back to the bus:

1. I assume I can only validate my top up at one of the machines in
Waterloo as there none on the list for the bus stops outside?

2. The TFL site says you have to pay for the bendy bus before you
get on, so how does that actually work with the Oyster card? Is there
a validator on the bus or at the stop or what? (In any case, it's
forty years since I was last on a London Bus - always used the tube
before - and things have probably changed a bit since then ;-)

Cheers

David

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 21, 9:39 am, Uncle Dave wrote:
1. I assume I can only validate my top up at one of the machines in
Waterloo as there none on the list for the bus stops outside?

If you buy credit online you can only collect it by touching in at a
tube, DLR or tram stop, and there's no way to do it without also
starting a journey. If you're starting a bus journey at Waterloo,
either have credit already or buy some at the tube station ticket
machines.

You might also like to investigate auto top-up, which allows you to
top up on buses, though not at will:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5469.aspx

2. The TFL site says you have to pay for the bendy bus before you
get on, so how does that actually work with the Oyster card? Is there
a validator on the bus or at the stop or what? (In any case, it's
forty years since I was last on a London Bus - always used the tube
before - and things have probably changed a bit since then ;-)

Having an Oyster card with credit on it counts as having bought a
ticket. Touch it against the reader on the driver's ticket machine, or
on a bendy you're allowed to board through the rear doors, which have
their own validators on the poles inside. You only need to validate
when you get on, not when you get off.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 21, 10:23 am, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:39 am, Uncle Dave wrote:

1. I assume I can only validate my top up at one of the machines in
Waterloo as there none on the list for the bus stops outside?

If you buy credit online you can only collect it by touching in at a
tube, DLR or tram stop, and there's no way to do it without also
starting a journey. If you're starting a bus journey at Waterloo,
either have credit already or buy some at the tube station ticket
machines.

Ah, right, that's what I was wondering. OK, rather than top up on-
line I'll buy some credit at the ticket machine - I'm not expecting to
travel often enough to warrant auto top up.

Thanks!

David

Oyster Card
 

From my observations, I have found the problem with Oyester PAYG on
DLR is not entering the system but exiting. All the readers appear to
face outwards and there is no gateline effect to remind the passenger
to swipe out.

Hence my only zone 1-6 fare was on a visit to Poplar,
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

OC

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 21, 10:28 am, Uncle Dave wrote:

Ah, right, that's what I was wondering. OK, rather than top up on-
line I'll buy some credit at the ticket machine - I'm not expecting to
travel often enough to warrant auto top up.

In the event, I topped up online, but the options where you can
validate your top-up are limited and don't include buses. I chose the
underground at Waterloo which was where I arrived, went to the barrier
where the guy informed me that it probably wouldn't work and that the
barrier would open so I'd get charged for a journey. He was right so
I've now been charged for a journey I never made because I used the
bus.

I'm sure this works fine for millions of other people, but I think I
shall avoid it in future and pay as I go - it will probably work out
cheaper and certainly easier! Thanks for the advice and info.

Cheers

David

Oyster Card
 

In message . com, Uncle
Dave writes
On Aug 21, 10:28 am, Uncle Dave wrote:

Ah, right, that's what I was wondering. OK, rather than top up on-
line I'll buy some credit at the ticket machine - I'm not expecting to
travel often enough to warrant auto top up.

In the event, I topped up online, but the options where you can
validate your top-up are limited and don't include buses. I chose the
underground at Waterloo which was where I arrived, went to the barrier
where the guy informed me that it probably wouldn't work and that the
barrier would open so I'd get charged for a journey. He was right so
I've now been charged for a journey I never made because I used the
bus.
I'm not quite sure what you did here. By saying "charged for a journey
I never made", do you mean you opened the barrier but didn't enter the
system and travel? If so, then nothing went wrong or "didn't work".
You can only collect on-line top ups when you make a Tube journey.
That might have been what the chap on the barrier meant but he should
really have explained it to you more fully (depending on what you said
to him).

In your circumstances, it would have been better not to top up online
but to do it at a machine at Waterloo, not enter the Tube system and
then go straight on to the bus.

I'm sure this works fine for millions of other people, but I think I
shall avoid it in future and pay as I go - it will probably work out
cheaper
No, National Rail journeys notwithstanding, Oyster should always be
cheaper if you do it properly.

and certainly easier!
Perhaps because the concept, the "way" in which Oyster works, it does
confuse people and you're not alone. If I gave any advice to anyone,
I'd suggest they load up a card at a machine, a ticket office or a
newsagent and take it from there.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 23, 11:34 am, Uncle Dave wrote:
I chose the
underground at Waterloo which was where I arrived, went to the barrier
where the guy informed me that it probably wouldn't work and that the
barrier would open so I'd get charged for a journey. He was right so
I've now been charged for a journey I never made because I used the
bus.

We warned you that would happen. There's really not much reason for
anyone to buy credit online if you're starting your journey at a tube
station - just use your credit/debit card in a tube ticket machine.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 23, 12:34 pm, Ian Jelf wrote:

Perhaps because the concept, the "way" in which Oyster works, it does
confuse people and you're not alone. If I gave any advice to anyone,
I'd suggest they load up a card at a machine, a ticket office or a
newsagent and take it from there.

I rang them and they're refunding the cost of the "ghost" journey so
at least I won't lose anything. As I usually only use the card when
coming back to the country and travelling via London, topping up on-
line is preferable as it's always possible that the machine won't be
working and the ticket office closed. Knowing my luck "it's always
possible that" is redundant in that statement ;-)

I'm glad it's not just me that they've confused - from the casual user
viewpoint the inconsistency of use between means of transport is
inexcusable. Maybe it's down to the system infrastructure, though why
validation should only be possible at certain points is beyond me. My
guess is it's probably a security issue - the functionality of the
devices appears to be the same.

The fact that you can't validate your top-up without making a journey
is poor design - either validation is a discrete function or it
isn't.

Cheers

David

Oyster Card
 

On 21 aug, 00:21, Michael Hoffman wrote:

It's at the gateline. How did you get in/out without using it?

DLR is not gated. However, the reader is normally found at the start
of the Compulsory Ticket Area which is marked with a line, so this
should usually be easy to find.

Neil

Oyster Card
 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:20:24 -0700, Uncle Dave wrote:

I rang them and they're refunding the cost of the "ghost" journey so
at least I won't lose anything. As I usually only use the card when
coming back to the country and travelling via London, topping up on-
line is preferable as it's always possible that the machine won't be
working and the ticket office closed.

If the machine isn't working and the office is closed, how would you
be able to collect your online top-up without starting a Tube journey?

The fact that you can't validate your top-up without making a journey
is poor design - either validation is a discrete function or it
isn't.

I don't think it's poor design. Topping up online and then collecting
at a Tube station is completely pointless unless you're also making a
Tube journey. (The whole advantage of online top-up is you avoid
having to queue at the ticket machine/office when you reach the
station, which is lost if you've got to do so anyway to collect the
top-up.)

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 23, 10:51 pm, asdf wrote:

I don't think it's poor design. Topping up online and then collecting
at a Tube station is completely pointless unless you're also making a
Tube journey. (The whole advantage of online top-up is you avoid
having to queue at the ticket machine/office when you reach the
station, which is lost if you've got to do so anyway to collect the
top-up.)

That's my point!

David

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 23, 10:51 pm, asdf wrote:
The fact that you can't validate your top-up without making a journey
is poor design - either validation is a discrete function or it
isn't.

I don't think it's poor design. Topping up online and then collecting
at a Tube station is completely pointless unless you're also making a
Tube journey. (The whole advantage of online top-up is you avoid
having to queue at the ticket machine/office when you reach the
station, which is lost if you've got to do so anyway to collect the
top-up.)

The poor design element is that you can't validate on a bus, thereby
making validation actually an issue instead of the non-issue it ought
to be (yes, I know the excuses for this; however, it'd be trivially
easy to make bus-based readers connect to the base by GPRS every five
minutes to exchange relevant data with the central system).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Oyster Card
 

John B wrote:

The poor design element is that you can't validate on a bus, thereby
making validation actually an issue instead of the non-issue it ought
to be (yes, I know the excuses for this; however, it'd be trivially
easy to make bus-based readers connect to the base by GPRS every five
minutes to exchange relevant data with the central system).

I think we have different definitions of "trivial."
--
Michael Hoffman

Oyster Card
 

On 24 Aug, 11:31, Michael Hoffman wrote:
The poor design element is that you can't validate on a bus, thereby
making validation actually an issue instead of the non-issue it ought
to be (yes, I know the excuses for this; however, it'd be trivially
easy to make bus-based readers connect to the base by GPRS every five
minutes to exchange relevant data with the central system).

I think we have different definitions of "trivial."

TfL has a secure private network in place to link the fixed Oyster
readers to their central server. Companies have been able for many
years to provide their employees and their employees' devices with VPN
access over GPRS to their secure private networks. Integrating mobile
devices with electronic peripherals is more or less a matter of plug-
and-play.

I'm missing the 'non-trivial' element, here...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Oyster Card
 

John B wrote:
On 24 Aug, 11:31, Michael Hoffman wrote:
The poor design element is that you can't validate on a bus, thereby
making validation actually an issue instead of the non-issue it ought
to be (yes, I know the excuses for this; however, it'd be trivially
easy to make bus-based readers connect to the base by GPRS every five
minutes to exchange relevant data with the central system).
I think we have different definitions of "trivial."

TfL has a secure private network in place to link the fixed Oyster
readers to their central server. Companies have been able for many
years to provide their employees and their employees' devices with VPN
access over GPRS to their secure private networks. Integrating mobile
devices with electronic peripherals is more or less a matter of plug-
and-play.

I'm missing the 'non-trivial' element, here...

Yes, you are.

Even writing a specification for such a system detailed enough to be
implemented would not be trivial. I'd say that anything that involves
the deployment of new hardware and software across thousands of buses
will not be trivial. Almost-real-time wireless communication only adds
to the complexity.
--
Michael Hoffman

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 24, 1:53 pm, John B wrote:
I'm missing the 'non-trivial' element, here...

A bus ticket machine is a fairly simple off-the-shelf gadget. You're
proposing bolting on a relatively huge amount of new electronics for
very little gain, plus the additional costs of maintaining it and
payingt for bandwidth and so on. From a technological point of view
you're right, it is trivial, but logistically and economically, no it
isn't.

You don't need it anyway. Online top ups have an overnight delay, so
they could just upload details of top-ups to be collected while the
bus is in the depot at night. I presume they've looked at this and
found it's more trouble than it's worth, or not something they could
keep working reliably, or not compatible with current working
practices, or some other non-technological issue.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oyster Card
 

John B wrote:
On 24 Aug, 11:31, Michael Hoffman wrote:
The poor design element is that you can't validate on a bus, thereby
making validation actually an issue instead of the non-issue it
ought to be (yes, I know the excuses for this; however, it'd be
trivially easy to make bus-based readers connect to the base by
GPRS every five minutes to exchange relevant data with the central
system).

I think we have different definitions of "trivial."

TfL has a secure private network in place to link the fixed Oyster
readers to their central server. Companies have been able for many
years to provide their employees and their employees' devices with VPN
access over GPRS to their secure private networks. Integrating mobile
devices with electronic peripherals is more or less a matter of plug-
and-play.

I'm missing the 'non-trivial' element, here...

Hence why so many large IT projects go over budget and miss deadlines...?
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Oyster Card
 

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On Aug 24, 1:53 pm, John B wrote:

I'm missing the 'non-trivial' element, here...

A bus ticket machine is a fairly simple off-the-shelf gadget. You're
proposing bolting on a relatively huge amount of new electronics for
very little gain, plus the additional costs of maintaining it and
payingt for bandwidth and so on. From a technological point of view
you're right, it is trivial, but logistically and economically, no it
isn't.

Okay, hands up anyone here who's an electronic engineer.

Anyone?

No?

So we're all more or less talking out of our collective hats, then?

A mate of mine designed a system for trucks that monitors their position,
speed, and brake use, and radios it back to base for tracking and
maintenance management type stuff. It's a box with a GPS chipset, a GPRS
chipset, some analogue-to-digital converters, and a microcontroller. I
wouldn't say it was trivial, at all, but it was also not the kind of
impossibility you make out. [1]

You're right that it would add a fairly marginal amount of utility. But
buses are going to have computers with GPRS (and GPS) soon enough anyway,
for iBus, this kind of management-oriented telemetry, etc. Adding an
interface to the Oyster mainframe at that point would be a matter of a
ribbon cable and a few dozen thousand lines of code.

tom

[1] One of its effects is to make braking more efficient, which saves
fuel; something like 2%, i think. It's installed on 5000 trucks, which
means it's saving 100 trucks worth of fuel use; this friend accordingly
doesn't feel guilty about his frequent intercontinental plane trips!

--
As Emiliano Zapata supposedly said, "Better to die on your feet than
live on your knees." And years after he died, Marlon Brando played him
in a movie. So just think, if you unionize, Marlon Brando might play
YOU in a movie. Even though he's dead. -- ChrisV82

Oyster Card
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On Aug 24, 1:53 pm, John B wrote:

I'm missing the 'non-trivial' element, here...

A bus ticket machine is a fairly simple off-the-shelf gadget. You're
proposing bolting on a relatively huge amount of new electronics for
very little gain, plus the additional costs of maintaining it and
payingt for bandwidth and so on. From a technological point of view
you're right, it is trivial, but logistically and economically, no it
isn't.

Okay, hands up anyone here who's an electronic engineer.

I'm a programmer, so I have a good idea of what "trivial" means in terms
of even that aspect of the project.

So we're all more or less talking out of our collective hats, then?

Perhaps you are, if you say so. I'm not.

A mate of mine designed a system for trucks that monitors their
position, speed, and brake use, and radios it back to base for tracking
and maintenance management type stuff. It's a box with a GPS chipset, a
GPRS chipset, some analogue-to-digital converters, and a
microcontroller. I wouldn't say it was trivial, at all, but it was also
not the kind of impossibility you make out. [1]

I don't think anyone has said what John has proposed is *impossible,*
only that it is not *trivial* either. What you describe is in the same
category.

You're right that it would add a fairly marginal amount of utility. But
buses are going to have computers with GPRS (and GPS) soon enough
anyway, for iBus, this kind of management-oriented telemetry, etc.
Adding an interface to the Oyster mainframe at that point would be a
matter of a ribbon cable and a few dozen thousand lines of code.

*Now* you're talking out of your hat.

It would be nice to collect online top-up at any Tube station rather
than having to nominate one. Or to allow collection without having to
wait overnight. Either of these things would be a walk in the park
compared to a GPRS-based system on the buses. Yet they are not done.

It's not as easy as you think. As Richard J. points out IT projects are
notorious for missing budgets and deadlines. I think no small part of
this is due to overly optimistic assumptions at the outset.
--
Michael Hoffman

Oyster Card
 

On Aug 20, 10:54 pm, Uncle Dave wrote:
Can anyone tell me how I can use myOysterCard on buses? TFL don't
seem to want to - they hint at it, presumably expecting visitors to
London to somehow understand how London transportation works.

You are not
alonhttp://www.ilfordrecorder.co.uk/content/redbridge/recorder/news/story.aspx?brand=RECOnline&category=newsIlford&tBr and=northlondon24&tCategory=newsilford&itemid=WeED 20%20Sep%202007%2009%3A33%3A33%3A853

quote

Train users paying for Oyster card mix-up
MARC WALKER - 20 September 2007
CONFUSED rail passengers are being hit with £20 on-the-spot fines
after mistakenly thinking they can use their Oyster card on train
services.

Rail company One has pledged to extend the electronic ticketing system
- which operates between Stratford and Liverpool Street - to Redbridge
stations by May 2009.

But in the meantime many commuters remain bewildered by the transport
network.

Barry Edwards, of Chelmsford Road, South Woodford, said he saw several
people attempt to pass through barriers at Ilford station using their
Oyster cards, only to be fined for fare dodging.

He said: "There was a Polish student reduced to tears when an officer
was trying to serve her a £20 penalty charge.

"Transport for London has already paid the money to One Railway to
take on the pre-payment system right up to Romford. If the money has
been paid, why not wave them through?"

A One spokesman confirmed that TfL will pay for the installation of
Oyster payment barriers at stations in Ilford, Seven Kings, Goodmayes
and Chadwell Heath - but denied that the company had already received
the cash from City Hall.

She said: "No money comes to us. TfL puts the equipment into the
stations, but we will be paying for the maintenance."

London Mayor Ken Livingstone has made no secret of his anger over
train operators' reluctance to embrace Oyster.

A TfL spokesman said: "We recognise the benefits to tens of thousands
of passengers of a fully integrated transport smartcard, to pay for
all forms of public transport across London.

"Indeed, last May, the mayor offered £20million to pay for the
provision and installation of Oyster across the national rail network
in the capital.

"All the train operating companies are in final discussion with TfL
over the implementation of Oyster pay-as-you-go on their services.
Agreement should hopefully be reached in the next few weeks.

unquote:

Oyster Card
 

Bob wrote:

CONFUSED rail passengers are being hit with £20 on-the-spot fines
after mistakenly thinking they can use their Oyster card on train
services.

Rail company One has pledged to extend the electronic ticketing system
- which operates between Stratford and Liverpool Street - to Redbridge
stations by May 2009.

Well the paper's not helping to clear up the confusion is it?! "Oyster
cards" CAN be used at Ilford BUT only the ones with season tickets on them -
I've never had a problem here. What causes the confusion is the widespread
use of "Oyster" when "Pay As You Go" is what is meant.