Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

Afternoon all,

I was looking for 60s maps showing the layout around Finsbury Park, and
stumbled across some wonderful websites for map nerds. Many of these you
will now already, but perhaps some you will not.

Various maps 1553 - 1918:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...._pages/lon.htm

A variety of maps from 1922 (plus one from each of 1890, 1902, 1920):
http://www.hipkiss.org/cgi-bin/maps....n&format=table

Various:
http://www.oldlondonmaps.com/index.html

Complete 1945 OS map of the UK, with dodgy postcodes:
http://www.npemap.org.uk/

Joyce Whitchurch's Beeching maps, which i keep forgetting about:
http://www.joyce.whitchurch.btinternet.co.uk/maps.htm

British Library Crace collection (867 maps!):
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/sear...&step=val_form

City of London collections:
http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/c...esults&sp=Zmap

Oh god more maps, painful to navigate:
http://www.motco.com/map/

1889 poverty map:
http://www.umich.edu/~risotto/

Now!

This map from 1922 shows some things i found interestingg in the Finsbury
Park sort of area:

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps/bar...0_1541_600.jpg

(a) The Northern line before it was extended north of Archway; at that
time, Archway was apparently known as Highgate.

(b) The way things are drawn around Drayton Park shows the Moorgate tube
joining the Canonbury Curve at Drayton Park, before going on to Finsbury
Park. I was wondering if there were actually two parallel routes here -
tube and surface - but the maps suggests not. But since we know that there
was a link from the mainline to this line, the story about the GN&CR being
hobbled by terminating in deep platforms doesn't quite make sense, and i'm
confused all over again.

(c) The map shows a Gillespie Road station on the GN&CR. I know there's
one on the Piccadilly (currently called Arsenal), but is it true that
there was a stop on the big railway too, or is that a mistake?

On the other side of town, in this map:

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps/mey...2835_ 600.jpg

There appears to be a station at the south end of Victoria Bridge. Is that
so? It seems like a very good idea. When was it got rid of?

tom

--
Ensure a star-man is never constructed!

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

On the other side of town, in this map:

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps/mey...2835_ 600.jpg

There appears to be a station at the south end of Victoria Bridge.
It seems like a very good idea.

Are you kidding? The hinterland would be quarter park, quarter water works
and half river. There appears not to be a single building which is not
nearer to another station.

There is no name on the blob on the southern end of the station, so I would
suspect it was a goods facility. There is however a Grosvenor Road Station
at the north end of the bridge.

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
(b) The way things are drawn around Drayton Park shows the Moorgate tube
joining the Canonbury Curve at Drayton Park, before going on to Finsbury
Park. I was wondering if there were actually two parallel routes here -
tube and surface - but the maps suggests not.

It's just simplified. The old route would have run alongside the
Canonbury Curve on the surface before going into the underground
platforms at Finsbury Park.

But since we know that
there was a link from the mainline to this line, the story about the
GN&CR being hobbled by terminating in deep platforms doesn't quite make
sense, and i'm confused all over again.

The connection wasn't suitable for regular use, although I'd love if
anyone had info on its exact nature.

(c) The map shows a Gillespie Road station on the GN&CR. I know there's
one on the Piccadilly (currently called Arsenal), but is it true that
there was a stop on the big railway too, or is that a mistake?

Mistake.

There appears to be a station at the south end of Victoria Bridge. Is
that so? It seems like a very good idea. When was it got rid of?

Grosvenor Road station. It closed for good in 1911, though one of the
buildings is still there.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

John Rowland wrote:
There is no name on the blob on the southern end of the station, so I would
suspect it was a goods facility. There is however a Grosvenor Road Station
at the north end of the bridge.

Sorry, south end of the bridge? Comparing the map with the London
Railway Atlas, the blob on the left is in the location of Pimlico
(1858-1860), the pre-Victoria terminus, which begets Battersea Wharf
goods (?-1970). The blob on the right on the through line corresponds to
Battersea Park & Steamboat Pier (1860-1870).

(The current Battersea Park was opened as "York Road" in 1867)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

(b) The way things are drawn around Drayton Park shows the Moorgate
tube joining the Canonbury Curve at Drayton Park, before going on to
Finsbury Park. I was wondering if there were actually two parallel
routes here - tube and surface - but the maps suggests not.

It's just simplified. The old route would have run alongside the Canonbury
Curve on the surface before going into the underground platforms at Finsbury
Park.

So it was four-track around Drayton Park? GN&CR alongside GN/NLL?

But since we know that there was a link from the mainline to this line,
the story about the GN&CR being hobbled by terminating in deep
platforms doesn't quite make sense, and i'm confused all over again.

The connection wasn't suitable for regular use, although I'd love if
anyone had info on its exact nature.

But John Band said there were 16 trains doing GN - Broad Street in the
peaks! That's probably 8 tph, which seems decent. Now, that was from the
GN to the Canonbury Curve (well, the bit north of the curve proper - the
Canonbury Straight?), but all it would take is a pair of crossovers south
of the junction with the mainline to get those trains onto the GN&CR.

(c) The map shows a Gillespie Road station on the GN&CR. I know there's one
on the Piccadilly (currently called Arsenal), but is it true that there was
a stop on the big railway too, or is that a mistake?

Mistake.

Oh well.

There appears to be a station at the south end of Victoria Bridge. Is that
so? It seems like a very good idea. When was it got rid of?

Grosvenor Road station. It closed for good in 1911, though one of the
buildings is still there.

Aha. Cheers.

tom

--
Wikipedia topics: lists of trains, Mortal Kombat characters, one-time
villains from Mario games, road intersections, boring suburban schools,
garage bands, cats, webcomics, Digimon, Bionicle characters, webforums,
characters from English soap operas, and Mortal Kombat characters that
don't exist -- Uncyclopedia

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

In message , Mr Thant
writes

Tom Anderson wrote:

But since we know that there was a link from the mainline to this
line, the story about the GN&CR being hobbled by terminating in deep
platforms doesn't quite make sense, and i'm confused all over again.

The connection wasn't suitable for regular use, although I'd love if
anyone had info on its exact nature.

Surely the link was *designed* for regular use - it just never got used
in regular service because of the abandonment of the Northern Heights
scheme? IIRC only one of the two ramps between Drayton Park to Finsbury
Park High Level was completed, with a fairly steepish incline of 1:50 -
the other would have been 1:45.

--
Paul Terry

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

John Rowland wrote:

There is no name on the blob on the southern end of the station, so I
would suspect it was a goods facility. There is however a Grosvenor
Road Station at the north end of the bridge.

Sorry, south end of the bridge? Comparing the map with the London
Railway Atlas, the blob on the left is in the location of Pimlico
(1858-1860), the pre-Victoria terminus, which begets Battersea Wharf
goods (?-1970). The blob on the right on the through line corresponds to
Battersea Park & Steamboat Pier (1860-1870).

(The current Battersea Park was opened as "York Road" in 1867)

Aha. There we go.

Are you kidding? The hinterland would be quarter park, quarter water
works and half river. There appears not to be a single building which is
not nearer to another station.

Oops. I had failed to notice Grosvenor Road station at the north end of
the bridge; i was thinking it would be useful for the swathe of Pimlico
and Chelsea nearer to Chelsea Bridge than Victoria.

I've just noticed that there was also a canal running from Chelsea Bridge
to Victoria. Shame that's not still there, it could be rather nice.

tom

--
Wikipedia topics: lists of trains, Mortal Kombat characters, one-time
villains from Mario games, road intersections, boring suburban schools,
garage bands, cats, webcomics, Digimon, Bionicle characters, webforums,
characters from English soap operas, and Mortal Kombat characters that
don't exist -- Uncyclopedia

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
But John Band said there were 16 trains doing GN - Broad Street in the
peaks! That's probably 8 tph, which seems decent. Now, that was from the
GN to the Canonbury Curve (well, the bit north of the curve proper - the
Canonbury Straight?), but all it would take is a pair of crossovers
south of the junction with the mainline to get those trains onto the GN&CR.

The GN&CR is in a deep cutting at this point, presumably deep enough to
go under the Canonbury Curve tracks to reach the old deep-level station.
Building a connection would have been (and apparently was) a major project.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

Paul Terry wrote:
Surely the link was *designed* for regular use - it just never got used
in regular service because of the abandonment of the Northern Heights
scheme? IIRC only one of the two ramps between Drayton Park to Finsbury
Park High Level was completed, with a fairly steepish incline of 1:50 -
the other would have been 1:45.

AIUI the Northern Heights tracks would have both continued parallel
along the east side of Finsbury Park station on a new viaduct (which was
partially built, since demolished). I don't think it involved a direct
connection to the ECML, though I'm by no means an expert on the subject.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Maps, with some observations and some questions
 

In message , Mr Thant
writes

AIUI the Northern Heights tracks would have both continued parallel
along the east side of Finsbury Park station on a new viaduct (which
was partially built, since demolished). I don't think it involved a
direct connection to the ECML, though I'm by no means an expert on the
subject.

Ah yes, I think you're right - there was an indirect connection via the
Finsbury Park goods yard, but not a direct connection.

--
Paul Terry