On 7 Oct, 23:14, "Richard J." wrote:
lonelytraveller wrote:
On 7 Oct, 17:50, "Richard J." wrote:
lonelytraveller wrote:
They chose to obstruct the side entrance at paddington, rather
than demolish the horrifically ugly modern building on the other
side of the road.
Because the modern building is on the wrong side of the road for an
interchange with the mainline station. What do you mean by
"obstruct"?
Crossrail is quite deep, the escalators would be long enough to
stretch the width of the road easily. By "obstruct" I mean that it
will require the retaining wall railings and canopies to be
demolished, making the station appear somewhat naked.
The existing retaining wall limits the access to the station from
Eastbourne Terrace. This will be demolished and the road lowered to the
level of the present taxi road, so access will be improved. Bringing
the escalators up to the surface on the western side of Esatbourne
Terrace would make it more difficult for passengers interchanging
between Crossrail and mainline or Tube.
Demolishing the whole of central london would improve access to the
station. Improved access shouldn't be the only consideration,
aesthetics are important too.

I still don't see why they didn't route it as a new tube line from
Paddington to Liverpool street via Charing Cross and Temple -
reusing the old Jubilee line route and Aldwych branch of the
Piccadilly where possible.
Well, for a start, the Jubilee/Piccadilly tunnels aren't big
enough!
They are big enough for a tube line - hence why I said that I don't
see why they didn't route it as a new TUBE line...
Oh, for heaven's sake, why do you want to condemn London to yet another
line constrained by the Tube loading gauge with its limited capacity and
poor comfort level? Paris managed to avoid this a century ago.
What exactly is wrong with Tube gauge? Have you been on Connex
Southeastern trains? With their packed carriages, and raw furnishings,
they are basically sardine tins on wheels with plastic seats added.
Tube trains seem to have much better furnishings, far more
aesthetically friendly, and the comfort level when its busy is hardly
any different.

In message , Richard
J. writes
I still don't see why they didn't route it as a new tube line from
Paddington to Liverpool street via Charing Cross and Temple -
reusing the old Jubilee line route and Aldwych branch of the
Piccadilly
where possible.

Well, for a start, the Jubilee/Piccadilly tunnels aren't big enough!
Anyway it's a bit late now to start debating the route all over again.

Also, that route (Aldwych and Charing Cross) is currently earmarked for
an eventual DLR extension...

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

On Oct 7, 11:28 pm, lonelytraveller
wrote:
What exactly is wrong with Tube gauge?

About 2.5 foot in height and 1 foot in width.

B2003

On Oct 6, 5:47 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
Boltar wrote:
It seems George Galloway is against it as well. What a surprise...
Well, what self respecting marxist could agree with a service that
would take all those nasty capitalists to work in canary wharf? That
and he might be worried all the tunnelling under Tower Hamlets could
scare off the illegal immigrants he sucks up to there.

There's been a bit of Not In My Back Yardism in that part of town as well -
the proposal for a rubble extraction shaft in Victoria Park has previously
provoked a "Not here but we don't have an idea as to where else and we
expect the developers to find a site" campaign.


For a long time there was concern about Crossrail in Tower Hamlets
because it would involve a huge amount of disruption in the borough
without adding any stations there.

Now it'll have two (Whitechapel and Isle of Dogs) I'd assumed that
would quieten down.

Jonn

On 8 Oct, 10:18, wrote:
For a long time there was concern about Crossrail in Tower Hamlets
because it would involve a huge amount of disruption in the borough
without adding any stations there.

Now it'll have two (Whitechapel and Isle of Dogs) I'd assumed that
would quieten down.

Other way round. They haven't added any new stations (I think
Whitechapel was in the plans before the fuss started), but they've
removed the somewhat ridiculous East End spoil removal system. All the
tunnelling is going to be done from near the ends, meaning all the
spoil can go straight onto barges (at Leamouth) or trains (at
Stratford and Paddington). The area's still going to get a couple of
enormous ventilation/escape shafts.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Sun, 7 Oct 2007, Richard J. wrote:

lonelytraveller wrote:
On 7 Oct, 17:50, "Richard J." wrote:
lonelytraveller wrote:

I still don't see why they didn't route it as a new tube line from
Paddington to Liverpool street via Charing Cross and Temple - reusing
the old Jubilee line route and Aldwych branch of the Piccadilly where
possible.

Well, for a start, the Jubilee/Piccadilly tunnels aren't big enough!

They are big enough for a tube line - hence why I said that I don't see
why they didn't route it as a new TUBE line...

Oh, for heaven's sake, why do you want to condemn London to yet another
line constrained by the Tube loading gauge with its limited capacity and
poor comfort level? Paris managed to avoid this a century ago.

I was going to post saying the same, and that using a mainline gauge leads
to greater capacity. But then i did the sums to back this up, and found
that actually, wider, taller loading gauges don't seem to add much to
capacity. I wrote it down here (corrections welcome):

http://urchin.earth.li/~twic/Passeng...me_Trains.html

The bottom line is that C stock, the highest-density stock on LU, gets
13.7 people per metre of train length, and the contemporaneous 67 stock
gets 11.3. Not a massive difference.

You're right about the comfort level, of course, and i suspect having the
extra height makes air conditioning etc easier to install.

tom

PS Why is there such a difference between 1992 and 1995 stock? Per metre,
they have a similar number of seats (2.09 vs 2.33 counting fixed and
flip-down seats), but they seem to have far fewer standing spaces (10.62
vs 6.25, counting perch seats as standing).

--
Linux is like a FreeBSD fork maintained by 10 year old retards. --
Encyclopedia Dramatica

On Sun, 7 Oct 2007, Paul G wrote:

In message , Richard J.
writes
I still don't see why they didn't route it as a new tube line from
Paddington to Liverpool street via Charing Cross and Temple -
reusing the old Jubilee line route and Aldwych branch of the Piccadilly
where possible.

Well, for a start, the Jubilee/Piccadilly tunnels aren't big enough! Anyway
it's a bit late now to start debating the route all over again.

Also, that route (Aldwych and Charing Cross) is currently earmarked for
an eventual DLR extension...

They also aren't big enough for that - DLR trains are taller than tube
gauge. I suppose they could build some kind of munchkin DLR stock
specifically to run on that route.

Anyway, you say 'earmarked', but who by? I've often heard this route
suggested, but only by armchair Yerkeses, and not TPTB.

tom

--
In my view, this is no different than a parent introducing his child to
Shakespeare (except that the iambic pentameter is replaced by a framework
of profanity, misogyny, substance abuse, violence, retaliation, crime
and infidelity). -- Dad Gone Mad, on rap

wrote:

For a long time there was concern about Crossrail in Tower Hamlets
because it would involve a huge amount of disruption in the borough
without adding any stations there.

Now it'll have two (Whitechapel and Isle of Dogs) I'd assumed that
would quieten down.

Tower Hamlets is very much a borough of (at least) two halves. I don't think
an Isle of Dogs station, which will be some distance from both Victoria Park
and the disruption around, IIRC, Brick Lane, would in any way remove
people's concerns (especially with regards Victoria Park as IIRC the shaft
would on first sight be for the Stratford branch of Crossrail). Parochialism
is always difficult to track, but I'm not sure there'd be that many people
who think in terms of the local benefits of Crossrail outweighing the
disadvantages, because some of the route (e.g. Liverpool Street to the east)
is already close at hand & easily available and other parts are not really
journey combinations made by many in that part of town (for instance it
never ceases to amaze me how few of the resident QMUL students have
experience of Ilford!). And one has to pay for Crossrail, whereas the 25
(which parrallels a good chunk of the root) is prone to fare dodging.

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

wrote:

For a long time there was concern about Crossrail in Tower Hamlets
because it would involve a huge amount of disruption in the borough
without adding any stations there. Now it'll have two (Whitechapel and
Isle of Dogs) I'd assumed that would quieten down.

Tower Hamlets is very much a borough of (at least) two halves. I don't
think an Isle of Dogs station, which will be some distance from both
Victoria Park and the disruption around, IIRC, Brick Lane, would in any
way remove people's concerns (especially with regards Victoria Park as
IIRC the shaft would on first sight be for the Stratford branch of
Crossrail).

Hang on, hang on. I've just got round to looking at a map of this. AIUI,
the route Crossrail takes from Liverpool Street is a straightish line to
Whitechapel, then under Mile End Road, then right down Stepney Green,
along Ben Jonson Road, past Mile End stadium (where i think the branch to
Canary Wharf comes off), then left and under the route of the London,
Tilbury & Southend railway, left at Bow Road to follow the loop up to
Pudding Mill Lane, and towards Stratford underneath the Great Eastern Main
Line.

Which goes nowhere at all near Victoria Park. The nearest approach is
where it joins the GEML and crosses the East Cross Route. If they're going
to be abstracting spoil from there, it's going to be via a mile-long
tunnel, when there's other industrial and railway land (that isn't going
to be absorbed by the Olympic park, AFAICT) a few hundred metres away. So
what's going on?

Shame there aren't going to be stations at Mile End Stadium and Bow Road /
Bow Church. Mile End Stadium in particular - there's a swathe of Limehouse
/ Poplar / Bromley between the District line and the river (excluding the
Isle of Dogs) that has no rail link into town. There's the LTS and the
DLR, but neither of those gets you further than the City without changing.
Even to the east and west, it's only the ELL and the Jubilee, which are
orbital routes at that point. There's even a patch of waste ground near
the stadium you could plonk a station on - and a go-karting track next to
it that you could perhaps buy up and turn into some kind of regeneration
hub.

Oh, and if any map-botherers fancy a laugh, have a look at what Google
thinks the DLR does north of Bow Church. I think i know where they got the
idea from, but i can't imagine *how*, given the dates. Or maybe they know
something about future plans for the DLR that i don't!

tom

--
Understand the world we're living in

and towards Stratford underneath the Great Eastern Main Line.

Underneath? I thought it will *join* the Great Eastern Main Line at
the current location of Pudding Mill Lane.


Oh, and if any map-botherers fancy a laugh, have a look at what Google
thinks the DLR does north of Bow Church. I think i know where they got the
idea from, but i can't imagine *how*, given the dates. Or maybe they know
something about future plans for the DLR that i don't!

Amazing, it's like 1930s all over again!
And news from the 2000s - they still do not show King George V
branch...