"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Arthur Figgis wrote:

- If passengers from south of Balham aren't enough to fill the trains,
consider extending south of Morden. I think there was once a plan, a
long time ago, to take over or share the railway to Sutton. Another
option would be a smidgen more tunnel and the eating of the railway
branch to Chessington.

Wasn't the Wimbledon - Sutton line built by the railways as a blocking
move to prevent the underground being extended to Sutton?

I thought it was a joint venture that only saw half come off.


I've seen at least one pair of 'Morden North' and 'Morden South' roundels
somewhere, presumably prototyped for this very purpose.

It would be an easy extension to build, simply by adapting Morden depot
slightly, and building one new road bridge.

Would it really be that useful though, without an express route? Journey
times from the south end of the Northern line to central London do not
compare favourably with national rail. Even the meandering Sutton loop is
probably faster.

I believe the original express plans were to duplicate the line all the way
to Morden, with stops only at Tooting Broadway and Stockwell, presumably
with cross platform express-slow interchange at these stations.

BTN

In article , Tom
Anderson writes
Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch?
Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line,

That was the 1946 plan. However, there was also an earlier plan floating
around in 1939 for the precursor of the Victoria Line.

Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The
section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only
at Tooting Broadway and Brixton. The southern all-stops section would be
extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate
stations).

Stage 2 of the plan extended the Victoria branch via Green Park, Bond
Street, Great Portland Street, and Camden Town to Finsbury Park.

Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR (allowing
trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into two:
- Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There would
be tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and
trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to KX.
- In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue to
Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool Street.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Mystery Flyer wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

I think there was once a plan, a long time ago, to take over or share
the railway to Sutton. Another option would be a smidgen more tunnel
and the eating of the railway branch to Chessington.

A smidgen? Its 3 miles through parks hills and/or 30s semi detatcheds to
connect to the Chessington overground before say Motspur Park.

2.1 miles from portal to portal - the northern one at the end of the
northernmost siding in the Morden depot, the southern one on the northern
side of the branch level with Mayfair Avenue.

The route's through sports grounds, parks, allotments, a cemetery and a
primary school's grounds the whole way, apart from around where it crosses
the B279. I was thinking you'd build it in tube (there being enough
railway land at either end for the portals), but the surface option is
really not that bad.

The Sutton line connection through the depot to Sutton, or the pother
way with a new junction to Raynes Park is more comprehensible.

Yes, certainly.

(but still imaginary)

Yes. You do realise i was talking about this in the context of building a
whole new tube line under London, right?

tom

--
sh(1) was the first MOO

On 16 Oct, 10:41, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article , Tom
Anderson writes

Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch?
Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line,

That was the 1946 plan. However, there was also an earlier plan floating
around in 1939 for the precursor of the Victoria Line.

Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The
section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only
at Tooting Broadway and Brixton.

Just to clarify - you mean the whole Northern line service from points
north of Clapham Common would then be diverted into an express service
calling only at Brixton and then the terminus, Tooting Broadway -
presumably in that order, right?

The southern all-stops section would be
extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate
stations).

Missing off Vauxhall....


Stage 2 of the plan extended the Victoria branch via Green Park, Bond
Street, Great Portland Street, and Camden Town to Finsbury Park.

And then missing Euston and KXSP, all major interchanges the later
Victoria line thankfully managed to hit!


Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR (allowing
trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into two:
- Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There would
be tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and
trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to KX.
- In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue to
Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool Street.


Thanks for that Clive. It certainly does sound like a proto-Victoria
line.

In article . com,
Mizter T writes
Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The
section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only
at Tooting Broadway and Brixton.
Just to clarify - you mean the whole Northern line service from points
north of Clapham Common would then be diverted into an express service
calling only at Brixton and then the terminus, Tooting Broadway -
presumably in that order, right?

Um, no. For some peculiar reason I wrote "Brixton" when I meant
"Morden".

The southern all-stops section would be
extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate
stations).
Missing off Vauxhall....

Correct. Presumably it wasn't seen as a significant traffic point at
that time.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

On 16 Oct, 16:52, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote:
In article . com,
Mizter T writes

Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The
section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only
at Tooting Broadway and Brixton.
Just to clarify - you mean the whole Northern line service from points
north of Clapham Common would then be diverted into an express service
calling only at Brixton and then the terminus, Tooting Broadway -
presumably in that order, right?

Um, no. For some peculiar reason I wrote "Brixton" when I meant
"Morden".

Aha - that makes a lot more sense! A detour from Clapham Common to
Brixton then back on course to Tooting Broadway would've been a pretty
strange plan.


The southern all-stops section would be
extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate
stations).
Missing off Vauxhall....

Correct. Presumably it wasn't seen as a significant traffic point at
that time.


Presumably so - but it makes for a very useful interchange now. Having
the foresight to see the potential of Vauxhall is just one of the many
things to the credit of those who planned the Magic line... ahem, I
mean the Victoria line.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article , Tom Anderson
writes

Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would
it just have slavishly followed the Northern line,

That was the 1946 plan. However, there was also an earlier plan floating
around in 1939 for the precursor of the Victoria Line.

Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The
section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only
at Tooting Broadway and [Morden].

This surprises me. What was the point of this? It gets people from Morden
and Tooting Broadway into the City faster than changing at Clapham Common,
sure. People from South Wimbledon and Colliers Wood can take the local
train and change at Tooting Broadway, too. But this seems quite a small
benefit for an awful lot of tunnelling. Specifically, you get almost as
much benefit by only taking those tubes to Tooting Broadway, which would
be half the distance (ish).

I'm also surprised the split was that far North - it only saves you four
stops (taking Victoria as somehow level with Waterloo). Balham, i tell
you, it should be Balham!

The southern all-stops section would be extended from Clapham Common to
Victoria (with no intermediate stations).

Stage 2 of the plan extended the Victoria branch via Green Park, Bond
Street, Great Portland Street, and Camden Town to Finsbury Park.

Like so:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/...3ca08395_o.png

A Finsbury Park - Camden Town link is something that i really do feel is
missing from the current network, like the Finsbury Park - Highgate link.
You may think that this is because i live in Finsbury Park, but i couldn't
possibly comment.

I haven't drawn the next bit because it would take actual effort ...

Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR (allowing
trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into two: - Under
the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There would be tube
stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and trains
would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to KX. - In
tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue to
Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool Street.

Sounds like a fairly sensible plan, really.

What happened between Stevenage and Cuffley? And on the Southbury loop?

tom

--
SAWING CHASING CRUNCHING ROBOTIC DEMOLITION

On 16 Oct, 22:57, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article , Tom
Anderson writes

Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would
it just have slavishly followed the Northern line,

That was the 1946 plan. However, there was also an earlier plan floating
around in 1939 for the precursor of the Victoria Line.

Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The
section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only
at Tooting Broadway and [Morden].

This surprises me. What was the point of this? It gets people from Morden
and Tooting Broadway into the City faster than changing at Clapham Common,
sure. People from South Wimbledon and Colliers Wood can take the local
train and change at Tooting Broadway, too. But this seems quite a small
benefit for an awful lot of tunnelling. Specifically, you get almost as
much benefit by only taking those tubes to Tooting Broadway, which would
be half the distance (ish).

I'm also surprised the split was that far North - it only saves you four
stops (taking Victoria as somehow level with Waterloo). Balham, i tell
you, it should be Balham!

All good points.


The southern all-stops section would be extended from Clapham Common to
Victoria (with no intermediate stations).

Stage 2 of the plan extended the Victoria branch via Green Park, Bond
Street, Great Portland Street, and Camden Town to Finsbury Park.

Like so:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/...3ca08395_o.png

Ah - very good. Always good to see it on a map.


A Finsbury Park - Camden Town link is something that i really do feel is
missing from the current network, like the Finsbury Park - Highgate link.
You may think that this is because i live in Finsbury Park, but i couldn't
possibly comment.

Of course you've got the 29 bus, plus at least another one... looks
at spider map ...the 253 (which, along with it's cousin the 254 are
pretty interesting routes).

Or a quick run down on the Vic line to High & I and change for the
North London Line to Camden Road - and very near from the station one
can descend down the steps to the canal towpath to get to Camden Lock
or, a bit further on, the delights of Regents Park.

Tom Anderson wrote:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/...3ca08395_o.png

A Finsbury Park - Camden Town link is something that i really do feel
is missing from the current network, like the Finsbury Park -
Highgate link. You may think that this is because i live in Finsbury
Park, but i couldn't possibly comment.

I haven't drawn the next bit because it would take actual effort ...

Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR
(allowing trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into
two: - Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There
would be
tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and
trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to
KX. - In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue
to
Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool
Street.

Sounds like a fairly sensible plan, really.

What happened between Stevenage and Cuffley? And on the Southbury
loop?

Between 1919 and 1960 the Southbury Loop had only freight services.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, John Rowland wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR
(allowing trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into
two: - Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There
would be tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes
Park, and trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER
services to KX. - In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then
surface and continue to Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER
services to Liverpool Street.

What happened between Stevenage and Cuffley? And on the Southbury loop?

Between 1919 and 1960 the Southbury Loop had only freight services.

Excellent fact, thankyou.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southbu...tation#History

Interesting that it closed and reopened like that; off the top of my head,
i'm not aware of any other examples of long-closed stations in London
reopening (ie not bomb damage etc cases). For those who don't care to read
the wikipedia article, it opened in 1891, closed in 1909 after the trams
came to Waltham Cross and out-competed it, reopened briefly during WWI
"for the benefit of munitions workers", presumably at the Royal Gunpowder
Mills, at Waltham Abbey, then closed again. Reopened in 1960 when the
whole area was electrified.

tom

Irrelevant PS to aerial photo fans (eg John): Elephants!

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=10.9...&t=k&z=23&om=1

--
Is this chill-out music for dangerous loners?