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The Northern Line that never was
http://underground-history.co.uk/claphamn.php
Would this route be of any value to us now if it were turned into a tube line? |
The Northern Line that never was
On Oct 14, 9:20 am, Mwmbwls wrote:
http://underground-history.co.uk/claphamn.php Would this route be of any value to us now if it were turned into a tube line? Yes, undoubtedly. Stockwell to Clapham Common is the busiest part of the Northern line and is unlikely to get any relief from any other projects (Crossrail, ELLX etc) so a parallel express line would be useful. Unfortunately the fact that a few bits of tunnel are already there doesn't stop it being absolutely unaffordable. |
The Northern Line that never was
On 14 Oct, 09:34, brixtonite wrote:
On Oct 14, 9:20 am, Mwmbwls wrote: http://underground-history.co.uk/claphamn.php Would this route be of any value to us now if it were turned into a tube line? Yes, undoubtedly. Stockwell to Clapham Common is the busiest part of the Northern line and is unlikely to get any relief from any other projects (Crossrail, ELLX etc) so a parallel express line would be useful. Unfortunately the fact that a few bits of tunnel are already there doesn't stop it being absolutely unaffordable. I'm waiting for the chaos that'll ensue if and when southern sections of the Northern line are closed for whole weekends for engineering work. I suspect some people are barely capable of imagining how to get around any other way! I've heard nothing of any such plans, but does anyone know if anything of the sort is likely? |
The Northern Line that never was
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote:
http://underground-history.co.uk/claphamn.php Would this route be of any value to us now if it were turned into a tube line? Ooh, spooky. I went down to the Imperial War Museum today (the camouflage exhibition is quite good - not often you get to see the uniforms of the Red Army and Public Enemy side by side), and on the tube was thinking about the old Northern line express plans. Thanks for posting, now i get a chance to relate my ponderings! Anyway, yes, clearly, the southern side of the Northern line is extremely busy. Brixtonite isn't quite right to say it's unlikely to get any relief from any other projects, as one project currently in the pipe is the resignalling and splitting of the Northern line, which would increase frequency by 25%. Still, an express route would help even more. Interesting page from the RSG lads, featuring scans of a 1940s report on the shelters: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/featur...ers/index.html There's an interesting quote from RTTC, too: "[The shelters were] placed below existing station tunnels at Clapham South, Clapham Common, Clapham North, Stockwell, Oval, Goodge Street, Camden Town, Belsize Park, Chancery Lane and St. Pauls. It may be assumed that at these points the deep-level express tubes would have no stations as the diameter was too small." Which may be overinterpreting - there isn't room for platforms in any of the existing tunnels, but the project to convert the shelters to a tube line could have added them. OTOH, the key stations where you'd want platforms are all ones which didn't get shelters. The only ones you'd want today that have are Camden Town and Stockwell. Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line, or might we have seen, eg, a Stockwell - Vauxhall - Piccadilly Circus - Goodge Street sort of alignment? Anyway, my thoughts we - Clapham South is a wise choice for the southernmost limit of the express line, from my experience of peak loadings round there; bring it up to the level of the main line north of Balham, through a Seven Sisters type layout (where slow trains reverse in a middle bay) and have it take over the existing line to the south. - North of Stockwell, the default is to follow the breadcrumb trail of deep level shelters along Northern line into town, up to Camden Town and Belsize Park, and then, er, to wherever the northern limit of overcrowding on the line is. - But you have all sorts of other interesting options that involve linking up with existing tunnels, and which could thus be substantially cheaper, although they wouldn't add capacity in central London. Like (in order of decreasing length of new tunnel): -- Stockwell - Vauxhall - Westminster - Piccadilly Circus - Tottenham Court Road - whatever the rest of your favourite Chelsea-Hackney route is. Okay, this doesn't connect to an existing tunnel, but at least it connects to an existing safeguarding! -- Stockwell - Vauxhall/Oval - Kennington? - Elephant & Castle - London Bridge - Bank - Moorgate - connect to GN&CR for Old Street, Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Finsbury Park etc. This option would definitely have made it very easy indeed to get home from the museum. -- Stockwell - Oval/Vauxhall - Waterloo - connect to Waterloo & City for Bank. Plonk in a new station at Blackfriars for maximum win. Possibly rebuild the Bank station at lower altitude, so that the tunnels can carry on to the East and do something useful out there (while also getting out of the way of an easy southward extension of the GN&CR, heh heh heh). -- Stockwell - Oval/Camberwell or something - Elephant & Castle - connect to Bakerloo line for points north. -- Possibly the best idea, actually: Stockwell, Kennington, connect to the Charing Cross branch of the Northern line, which will be severed from the existing southern reach of the line by the splitting. Camden Town-style cleverness at Kennington could even allow trains from both central branches to run to both of the local and express lines, which would make everyone happy. - If passengers from south of Balham aren't enough to fill the trains, consider extending south of Morden. I think there was once a plan, a long time ago, to take over or share the railway to Sutton. Another option would be a smidgen more tunnel and the eating of the railway branch to Chessington. tom -- No hay banda |
The Northern Line that never was
In message , Tom
Anderson writes Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line, or might we have seen, eg, a Stockwell - Vauxhall - Piccadilly Circus - Goodge Street sort of alignment? As I recall (but I could be wrong), the plan was to follow the original route fairly exactly, because in those days deviations would have meant tunnelling under vast numbers of privately-owned properties, the owners of which would have required compensation under wayleaves legislation. -- Paul Terry |
The Northern Line that never was
On Oct 14, 8:18 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote: Ooh, spooky. I went down to the Imperial War Museum today (the camouflage exhibition is quite good ... I also went there for the camouflage exhibition but I couldn't find it. No hay banda Seen Inland Empire yet?!? |
The Northern Line that never was
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, Offramp wrote:
On Oct 14, 8:18 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote: Ooh, spooky. I went down to the Imperial War Museum today (the camouflage exhibition is quite good ... I also went there for the camouflage exhibition but I couldn't find it. Very good. No doubt you also went to the war posters exhibition but didn't really get what it was trying to say. No hay banda Seen Inland Empire yet?!? Nope. See sig! tom -- News flash: there's no deep meaning or hidden message BECAUSE DAVID LYNCH IS INSANE |
The Northern Line that never was
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, Mwmbwls wrote: http://underground-history.co.uk/claphamn.php Would this route be of any value to us now if it were turned into a tube line? Ooh, spooky. I went down to the Imperial War Museum today (the camouflage exhibition is quite good - not often you get to see the uniforms of the Red Army and Public Enemy side by side), and on the tube was thinking about the old Northern line express plans. Thanks for posting, now i get a chance to relate my ponderings! Anyway, yes, clearly, the southern side of the Northern line is extremely busy. Brixtonite isn't quite right to say it's unlikely to get any relief from any other projects, as one project currently in the pipe is the resignalling and splitting of the Northern line, which would increase frequency by 25%. Still, an express route would help even more. Interesting page from the RSG lads, featuring scans of a 1940s report on the shelters: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/featur...ers/index.html There's an interesting quote from RTTC, too: "[The shelters were] placed below existing station tunnels at Clapham South, Clapham Common, Clapham North, Stockwell, Oval, Goodge Street, Camden Town, Belsize Park, Chancery Lane and St. Pauls. It may be assumed that at these points the deep-level express tubes would have no stations as the diameter was too small." Which may be overinterpreting - there isn't room for platforms in any of the existing tunnels, but the project to convert the shelters to a tube line could have added them. OTOH, the key stations where you'd want platforms are all ones which didn't get shelters. The only ones you'd want today that have are Camden Town and Stockwell. Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line, or might we have seen, eg, a Stockwell - Vauxhall - Piccadilly Circus - Goodge Street sort of alignment? Anyway, my thoughts we - Clapham South is a wise choice for the southernmost limit of the express line, from my experience of peak loadings round there; bring it up to the level of the main line north of Balham, through a Seven Sisters type layout (where slow trains reverse in a middle bay) and have it take over the existing line to the south. - North of Stockwell, the default is to follow the breadcrumb trail of deep level shelters along Northern line into town, up to Camden Town and Belsize Park, and then, er, to wherever the northern limit of overcrowding on the line is. - But you have all sorts of other interesting options that involve linking up with existing tunnels, and which could thus be substantially cheaper, although they wouldn't add capacity in central London. Like (in order of decreasing length of new tunnel): -- Stockwell - Vauxhall - Westminster - Piccadilly Circus - Tottenham Court Road - whatever the rest of your favourite Chelsea-Hackney route is. Okay, this doesn't connect to an existing tunnel, but at least it connects to an existing safeguarding! -- Stockwell - Vauxhall/Oval - Kennington? - Elephant & Castle - London Bridge - Bank - Moorgate - connect to GN&CR for Old Street, Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Finsbury Park etc. This option would definitely have made it very easy indeed to get home from the museum. -- Stockwell - Oval/Vauxhall - Waterloo - connect to Waterloo & City for Bank. Plonk in a new station at Blackfriars for maximum win. Possibly rebuild the Bank station at lower altitude, so that the tunnels can carry on to the East and do something useful out there (while also getting out of the way of an easy southward extension of the GN&CR, heh heh heh). -- Stockwell - Oval/Camberwell or something - Elephant & Castle - connect to Bakerloo line for points north. -- Possibly the best idea, actually: Stockwell, Kennington, connect to the Charing Cross branch of the Northern line, which will be severed from the existing southern reach of the line by the splitting. Camden Town-style cleverness at Kennington could even allow trains from both central branches to run to both of the local and express lines, which would make everyone happy. - If passengers from south of Balham aren't enough to fill the trains, consider extending south of Morden. I think there was once a plan, a long time ago, to take over or share the railway to Sutton. Another option would be a smidgen more tunnel and the eating of the railway branch to Chessington. Wasn't the Wimbledon - Sutton line built by the railways as a blocking move to prevent the underground being extended to Sutton? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
The Northern Line that never was
Tom Anderson wrote:
I think there was once a plan, a long time ago, to take over or share the railway to Sutton. Another option would be a smidgen more tunnel and the eating of the railway branch to Chessington. tom A smidgen? Its 3 miles through parks hills and/or 30s semi detatcheds to connect to the Chessington overground before say Motspur Park. The Sutton line connection through the depot to Sutton, or the pother way with a new junction to Raynes Park is more comprehensible. (but still imaginary) mf |
The Northern Line that never was
Arthur Figgis wrote:
- If passengers from south of Balham aren't enough to fill the trains, consider extending south of Morden. I think there was once a plan, a long time ago, to take over or share the railway to Sutton. Another option would be a smidgen more tunnel and the eating of the railway branch to Chessington. Wasn't the Wimbledon - Sutton line built by the railways as a blocking move to prevent the underground being extended to Sutton? I thought it was a joint venture that only saw half come off. |
The Northern Line that never was
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message ... Arthur Figgis wrote: - If passengers from south of Balham aren't enough to fill the trains, consider extending south of Morden. I think there was once a plan, a long time ago, to take over or share the railway to Sutton. Another option would be a smidgen more tunnel and the eating of the railway branch to Chessington. Wasn't the Wimbledon - Sutton line built by the railways as a blocking move to prevent the underground being extended to Sutton? I thought it was a joint venture that only saw half come off. I've seen at least one pair of 'Morden North' and 'Morden South' roundels somewhere, presumably prototyped for this very purpose. It would be an easy extension to build, simply by adapting Morden depot slightly, and building one new road bridge. Would it really be that useful though, without an express route? Journey times from the south end of the Northern line to central London do not compare favourably with national rail. Even the meandering Sutton loop is probably faster. I believe the original express plans were to duplicate the line all the way to Morden, with stops only at Tooting Broadway and Stockwell, presumably with cross platform express-slow interchange at these stations. BTN |
The Northern Line that never was
In article , Tom
Anderson writes Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line, That was the 1946 plan. However, there was also an earlier plan floating around in 1939 for the precursor of the Victoria Line. Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only at Tooting Broadway and Brixton. The southern all-stops section would be extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate stations). Stage 2 of the plan extended the Victoria branch via Green Park, Bond Street, Great Portland Street, and Camden Town to Finsbury Park. Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR (allowing trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into two: - Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There would be tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to KX. - In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue to Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool Street. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
The Northern Line that never was
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Mystery Flyer wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: I think there was once a plan, a long time ago, to take over or share the railway to Sutton. Another option would be a smidgen more tunnel and the eating of the railway branch to Chessington. A smidgen? Its 3 miles through parks hills and/or 30s semi detatcheds to connect to the Chessington overground before say Motspur Park. 2.1 miles from portal to portal - the northern one at the end of the northernmost siding in the Morden depot, the southern one on the northern side of the branch level with Mayfair Avenue. The route's through sports grounds, parks, allotments, a cemetery and a primary school's grounds the whole way, apart from around where it crosses the B279. I was thinking you'd build it in tube (there being enough railway land at either end for the portals), but the surface option is really not that bad. The Sutton line connection through the depot to Sutton, or the pother way with a new junction to Raynes Park is more comprehensible. Yes, certainly. (but still imaginary) Yes. You do realise i was talking about this in the context of building a whole new tube line under London, right? tom -- sh(1) was the first MOO |
The Northern Line that never was
On 16 Oct, 10:41, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote: In article , Tom Anderson writes Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line, That was the 1946 plan. However, there was also an earlier plan floating around in 1939 for the precursor of the Victoria Line. Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only at Tooting Broadway and Brixton. Just to clarify - you mean the whole Northern line service from points north of Clapham Common would then be diverted into an express service calling only at Brixton and then the terminus, Tooting Broadway - presumably in that order, right? The southern all-stops section would be extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate stations). Missing off Vauxhall.... Stage 2 of the plan extended the Victoria branch via Green Park, Bond Street, Great Portland Street, and Camden Town to Finsbury Park. And then missing Euston and KXSP, all major interchanges the later Victoria line thankfully managed to hit! Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR (allowing trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into two: - Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There would be tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to KX. - In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue to Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool Street. Thanks for that Clive. It certainly does sound like a proto-Victoria line. |
The Northern Line that never was
In article . com,
Mizter T writes Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only at Tooting Broadway and Brixton. Just to clarify - you mean the whole Northern line service from points north of Clapham Common would then be diverted into an express service calling only at Brixton and then the terminus, Tooting Broadway - presumably in that order, right? Um, no. For some peculiar reason I wrote "Brixton" when I meant "Morden". The southern all-stops section would be extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate stations). Missing off Vauxhall.... Correct. Presumably it wasn't seen as a significant traffic point at that time. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
The Northern Line that never was
On 16 Oct, 16:52, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote: In article . com, Mizter T writes Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only at Tooting Broadway and Brixton. Just to clarify - you mean the whole Northern line service from points north of Clapham Common would then be diverted into an express service calling only at Brixton and then the terminus, Tooting Broadway - presumably in that order, right? Um, no. For some peculiar reason I wrote "Brixton" when I meant "Morden". Aha - that makes a lot more sense! A detour from Clapham Common to Brixton then back on course to Tooting Broadway would've been a pretty strange plan. The southern all-stops section would be extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate stations). Missing off Vauxhall.... Correct. Presumably it wasn't seen as a significant traffic point at that time. Presumably so - but it makes for a very useful interchange now. Having the foresight to see the potential of Vauxhall is just one of the many things to the credit of those who planned the Magic line... ahem, I mean the Victoria line. |
The Northern Line that never was
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article , Tom Anderson writes Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line, That was the 1946 plan. However, there was also an earlier plan floating around in 1939 for the precursor of the Victoria Line. Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only at Tooting Broadway and [Morden]. This surprises me. What was the point of this? It gets people from Morden and Tooting Broadway into the City faster than changing at Clapham Common, sure. People from South Wimbledon and Colliers Wood can take the local train and change at Tooting Broadway, too. But this seems quite a small benefit for an awful lot of tunnelling. Specifically, you get almost as much benefit by only taking those tubes to Tooting Broadway, which would be half the distance (ish). I'm also surprised the split was that far North - it only saves you four stops (taking Victoria as somehow level with Waterloo). Balham, i tell you, it should be Balham! The southern all-stops section would be extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate stations). Stage 2 of the plan extended the Victoria branch via Green Park, Bond Street, Great Portland Street, and Camden Town to Finsbury Park. Like so: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/...3ca08395_o.png A Finsbury Park - Camden Town link is something that i really do feel is missing from the current network, like the Finsbury Park - Highgate link. You may think that this is because i live in Finsbury Park, but i couldn't possibly comment. I haven't drawn the next bit because it would take actual effort ... Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR (allowing trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into two: - Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There would be tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to KX. - In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue to Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool Street. Sounds like a fairly sensible plan, really. What happened between Stevenage and Cuffley? And on the Southbury loop? tom -- SAWING CHASING CRUNCHING ROBOTIC DEMOLITION |
The Northern Line that never was
On 16 Oct, 22:57, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Clive D. W. Feather wrote: In article , Tom Anderson writes Does anyone know if there was a route plan for the central stretch? Would it just have slavishly followed the Northern line, That was the 1946 plan. However, there was also an earlier plan floating around in 1939 for the precursor of the Victoria Line. Under this plan, the Northern Line would be split at Clapham Common. The section north of there would feed into an express tube that called only at Tooting Broadway and [Morden]. This surprises me. What was the point of this? It gets people from Morden and Tooting Broadway into the City faster than changing at Clapham Common, sure. People from South Wimbledon and Colliers Wood can take the local train and change at Tooting Broadway, too. But this seems quite a small benefit for an awful lot of tunnelling. Specifically, you get almost as much benefit by only taking those tubes to Tooting Broadway, which would be half the distance (ish). I'm also surprised the split was that far North - it only saves you four stops (taking Victoria as somehow level with Waterloo). Balham, i tell you, it should be Balham! All good points. The southern all-stops section would be extended from Clapham Common to Victoria (with no intermediate stations). Stage 2 of the plan extended the Victoria branch via Green Park, Bond Street, Great Portland Street, and Camden Town to Finsbury Park. Like so: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/...3ca08395_o.png Ah - very good. Always good to see it on a map. A Finsbury Park - Camden Town link is something that i really do feel is missing from the current network, like the Finsbury Park - Highgate link. You may think that this is because i live in Finsbury Park, but i couldn't possibly comment. Of course you've got the 29 bus, plus at least another one... looks at spider map ...the 253 (which, along with it's cousin the 254 are pretty interesting routes). Or a quick run down on the Vic line to High & I and change for the North London Line to Camden Road - and very near from the station one can descend down the steps to the canal towpath to get to Camden Lock or, a bit further on, the delights of Regents Park. |
The Northern Line that never was
Tom Anderson wrote:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/...3ca08395_o.png A Finsbury Park - Camden Town link is something that i really do feel is missing from the current network, like the Finsbury Park - Highgate link. You may think that this is because i live in Finsbury Park, but i couldn't possibly comment. I haven't drawn the next bit because it would take actual effort ... Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR (allowing trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into two: - Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There would be tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to KX. - In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue to Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool Street. Sounds like a fairly sensible plan, really. What happened between Stevenage and Cuffley? And on the Southbury loop? Between 1919 and 1960 the Southbury Loop had only freight services. |
The Northern Line that never was
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, John Rowland wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: Stage 3 extended northwards. After a connection from the GN&CR (allowing trains from Moorgate to run on to the line), it split into two: - Under the LNER to north of Bowes Park, where it surfaced. There would be tube stations at Hornsey, Harringay, Wood Green, and Bowes Park, and trains would run to Cuffley, replacing the existing LNER services to KX. - In tube to Seven Sisters (tube station), then surface and continue to Enfield Town, replacing the existing LNER services to Liverpool Street. What happened between Stevenage and Cuffley? And on the Southbury loop? Between 1919 and 1960 the Southbury Loop had only freight services. Excellent fact, thankyou. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southbu...tation#History Interesting that it closed and reopened like that; off the top of my head, i'm not aware of any other examples of long-closed stations in London reopening (ie not bomb damage etc cases). For those who don't care to read the wikipedia article, it opened in 1891, closed in 1909 after the trams came to Waltham Cross and out-competed it, reopened briefly during WWI "for the benefit of munitions workers", presumably at the Royal Gunpowder Mills, at Waltham Abbey, then closed again. Reopened in 1960 when the whole area was electrified. tom Irrelevant PS to aerial photo fans (eg John): Elephants! http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=10.9...&t=k&z=23&om=1 -- Is this chill-out music for dangerous loners? |
The Northern Line that never was
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Oct, 22:57, Tom Anderson wrote: A Finsbury Park - Camden Town link is something that i really do feel is missing from the current network, like the Finsbury Park - Highgate link. You may think that this is because i live in Finsbury Park, but i couldn't possibly comment. Of course you've got the 29 bus, plus at least another one... looks at spider map True, those are actually very good routes. The 29 is absolutely hellish at night, though. I know a tube wouldn't run all night, but if you were going home before 0030 (and really, who can stand Camden for any longer than that?), a tube line would be so much less crowded and more civilised. Even a Camden - FP shuttle, operating friday to sunday evenings only, would be a huge improvement! I wonder if we'll ever get the Cross River Tram extended up from Camden? That'd be nice. Make Seven Sisters Road as far as FP trams and pedestrians only, make Tollington Road and the stub of Camden Road bidirectional again and reroute buses that way, tram stops at Camden Road NR, Cantelowes Gardens (?), Brecknock Road, HMP Holloway ("always remember to touch in and break out" - but also the interchange with the bus routes on this corridor), Nag's Head, Hornsey Road, and at a turning loop in Finsbury Park bus station. Of course, they have to actually build it to Camden first. ...the 253 (which, along with it's cousin the 254 are pretty interesting routes). Interesting is a good word to describe the 253. How many bus routes do you know that have a concept album based on them? http://www.christt.com/shop_253.htm http://playlouder.com/review/+415christt/ Or a quick run down on the Vic line to High & I and change for the North London Line to Camden Road I think you'd have to be completely mad to try this, especially at evenings and weekends. When Ken takes over the NLL, maybe. tom -- Is this chill-out music for dangerous loners? |
The Northern Line that never was
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message .li... I'm also surprised the split was that far North - it only saves you four stops (taking Victoria as somehow level with Waterloo). Balham, i tell you, it should be Balham! I think the motivation there was that Tooting Broadway was the most heavily used station on the southern end of the line (and indeed I believe it still is today) and so having the express stop there was considered important. On that basis, having another stop just two stations up the line (Balham) would be too close for it to be an express service. BTN |
The Northern Line that never was
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:46:14 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:
Between 1919 and 1960 the Southbury Loop had only freight services. Excellent fact, thankyou. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southbu...tation#History Interesting that it closed and reopened like that; off the top of my head, i'm not aware of any other examples of long-closed stations in London reopening (ie not bomb damage etc cases). West Brompton (NR) A few NLL stations in the Hackney area, e.g. Homerton Several on what is now the DLR (or were they all bomb damaged?) Haggerston and Dalston Junction soon, if you count them |
The Northern Line that never was
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, asdf wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:46:14 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: Between 1919 and 1960 the Southbury Loop had only freight services. Excellent fact, thankyou. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southbu...tation#History Interesting that it closed and reopened like that; off the top of my head, i'm not aware of any other examples of long-closed stations in London reopening (ie not bomb damage etc cases). West Brompton (NR) A few NLL stations in the Hackney area, e.g. Homerton Okay, didn't know those two. Several on what is now the DLR (or were they all bomb damaged?) Aha, good one. They'd count anyway - i just meant not stations closed for a few months of years because of bomb damage. Haggerston and Dalston Junction soon, if you count them Of course! tom -- 3118110161 Pies |
The Northern Line that never was
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message .li... I'm also surprised the split was that far North - it only saves you four stops (taking Victoria as somehow level with Waterloo). Balham, i tell you, it should be Balham! I think the motivation there was that Tooting Broadway was the most heavily used station on the southern end of the line (and indeed I believe it still is today) I'm surprised to hear that. Never thought of it as much of a place. Here are today's numbers (total annual entry + exit, in millions, from TfL [1], with rank in this list): Morden 5.493 7 South Wimbledon 3.119 12 Colliers Wood 4.391 10 Tooting Broadwy 10.567 1 Tooting Bec 6.039 6 Balham 9.466 2 Clapham South 6.682 5 Clapham Common 7.482 3 Clapham North 5.022 8 Stockwell 6.924 4 Oval 4.580 9 Kennington 3.196 11 Interesting. Why is Tooting Broadway so busy? Bus feeders, or just a really densely populated area? St George's hospital and Wimbledon dog track? and so having the express stop there was considered important. On that basis, having another stop just two stations up the line (Balham) would be too close for it to be an express service. That makes perfect sense. According to the numbers above, Clapham Common is the third busiest station on the southern Northern line, so that's definitely the right place to put the split (if you were doing it now) - give those seven-odd million passengers two lines to hop on. I still don't get why the express tubes would have run to Morden, though. Maybe it was thought essential to be able to run trains from the express tracks to the depot without going back up to Clapham Common, and it was cheaper to extend the tunnels and have portals on the surface than to build an underground junction at Tooting Broadway. tom [1] http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/...load=entryexit -- 3118110161 Pies |
The Northern Line that never was
On Oct 19, 6:58 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
Tooting Broadwy 10.567 1 Interesting. Why is Tooting Broadway so busy? Good idea for a seperate topic. |
The Northern Line that never was
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message h.li... I'm surprised to hear that. Never thought of it as much of a place. Here are today's numbers (total annual entry + exit, in millions, from TfL [1], with rank in this list): Tooting Broadwy 10.567 1 Interesting. Why is Tooting Broadway so busy? Bus feeders, or just a really densely populated area? St George's hospital and Wimbledon dog track? Tooting Broadway picks up most of the London-bound bus traffic from Mitcham, which is very poorly served by public transport. Another reason is that Tooting National Rail station only has a rubbish half-hourly service to central London, which simply isn't good enough for turn-up-and-go, so people in the South Tooting / North Mitcham area where the station is located will largely use Tooting Broadway instead. Conversely, South Wimbledon isn't far from Wimbledon, from where one can get to London very quickly on National Rail, which would explain it being the most lightly used. BTN |
The Northern Line that never was
"Sir Benjamin Nunn" wrote in message ... "Tom Anderson" wrote in message h.li... I'm surprised to hear that. Never thought of it as much of a place. Here are today's numbers (total annual entry + exit, in millions, from TfL [1], with rank in this list): Tooting Broadwy 10.567 1 Interesting. Why is Tooting Broadway so busy? Bus feeders, or just a really densely populated area? St George's hospital and Wimbledon dog track? Tooting Broadway picks up most of the London-bound bus traffic from Mitcham, which is very poorly served by public transport. We used to catch the bus to Morden to avoid getting stuck in the traffic. This must have been before the bus lane was made. Strangley, we never ever walked to Mitcham station to change at Wimbledon (which would have been easiest). We always went to Croydon on the "little" train, but I must have been about 17 before I discovered that the 'other way' was a sensible route to London. tim |
The Northern Line that never was
"tim....." wrote in message ... Strangley, we never ever walked to Mitcham station to change at Wimbledon (which would have been easiest). We always went to Croydon on the "little" train, but I must have been about 17 before I discovered that the 'other way' was a sensible route to London. Provided you actually caught the train! For a long time until Tramlink replaced it, the line was operated single-track, with about one train to Wimbledon every hour IIRC. BTN |
The Northern Line that never was
Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:
Provided you actually caught the train! For a long time until Tramlink replaced it, the line was operated single-track, with about one train to Wimbledon every hour IIRC. Less than that - I remember it was once every 90 minutes, presumably because the single track line didn't allow for passes (not without jamming the Sutton to Balham line). |
The Northern Line that never was
In message , Tim Roll-Pickering
writes Less than that - I remember it was once every 90 minutes, presumably because the single track line didn't allow for passes (not without jamming the Sutton to Balham line). Immediately before electrification, the 1929 steam service was roughly hourly, worked by a single train (20 minutes each way). But I'm pretty sure there was another passing loop somewhere, because there was also a fair bit of freight traffic on the line and some extensive sidings around the area where IKEA is now situated. Just after electrification the service was every 30 minutes (and every 20 minutes in the peak!), achieved with the aid of a third passing loop at Waddon Marsh Halt and doubling some of the track at the Croydon end (the whole line was constructed with a view to eventually being double-tracked). But it didn't last ... not until Tramlink, anyway. -- Paul Terry |
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