On 6 Nov, 12:57, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message

...

Received from Oyster Customer Services:-

I am writing to inform you about the new train service managed
by TFL, the London Overground. This new service starts operating from
11 November 2007, when TfL takes over the running of the North
London, West London, Gospel Oak to Barking and Euston/Watford
Junction local lines.

I suspect the "new train service" will be the same "old train service"
with new vinyls for some time to come as the first mention of anything
substantial is new trains in 2009 in:-

Not even new vinyls, just removal of the 'Silverlink' name.

Paul

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.
And, according to a thread on uk.transport.london, Hampstead Heath
and Willesden Jct. will be re-zoned back to Zone 2 (or maybe 2/3) as
they were until about 10 years ago, so a pax holding a z12 travelcard
could go anywhere between Acton - Hackney Wick without having to worry
about excess fares.

The only problem I foresee is many Londoners, especially the habitual
tube-users, refer to what the rest of us call "the railway" or "the
train" as "the overground", eg "I took the overground from Walthamstow
to Liverpool St rather than using the tube".

It's hard enough when people ask if they can use "an Oyster Card" to
Bruce Grove, say, to explain that if it is a Travelcard with enough
zones on it they can, but if it is a PAYG, or a z1-2 plus PAYG, then
they have to buy a separate paper ticket, especially if English is not
their first language, as is common in that area. I find using the
expression "top-up Oyster card", rather than PAYG, is more
comprehensible to a lot of people. Even among my friends locally in
Romford, many don't see the distinction until it is explained pretty
slowly! In the pub one day I was subjected to a diatribe about "Phil
went to Sutton on his Oyster Card, and got fined when he got to
Sutton".

When it becomes known that you can use PAYG on what my namesake has
decided to call "The Overground", thousands of people will take this
to mean you can use PAYG on "the overground", i.e. all NR lines in
London, and most probably beyond. It will be confusing enough that
the distinction between "you can't use PAYG on overground trains, only
buses and tubes[1]" and "you can use a Travelcard on Oyster anywhere
in the zones which it covers, on tubes and trains, just like a paper
Travelcard [2]" will have been lost, but "you can't use PAYG/top-up on
overground trains, except Overground trains" is going to be a recipe
for total confusion.

[1] Except between two "overground" stations that are also "tube"
stations, but this represents only a tiny fraction of NR train
journeys.
[2] And, of course, on any TfL bus in any zone.

--
Ken
cross-posted to u.t.l

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

Peter

Peter

On 6 Nov, 14:16, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ken" wrote



But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

Peter

Peter

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.

On balance, I'll just wait for things to settle down, I think.

On 6 Nov, 17:45, Ianigsy wrote:
On 6 Nov, 14:16, "Peter Masson" wrote:



"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

Peter

Peter

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another
one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- and
it's taken a look at the website to see that Oyster is accepted from
Walthamstow Central to Liverpool Street.

I get the impression that while Oyster may be fine for people who live
in London and for tourists who only really want the central zones,
it's a bit more patchy for those of us who visit London once or twice
a year and want to go to specific places- but I'm sure it'll be fine
once it's settled down.

On Nov 6, 5:45 pm, Ianigsy wrote:
This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.

Oyster PAYG is, happily, valid on 'one' between Liverpool Street and
Walthamstow (and Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but not at stations
in between).

Confusing, but useful.

--
Abi

"Ianigsy" wrote

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.

Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the
National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at
intermediate stations).
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx
Peter

On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ianigsy" wrote

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.

Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the
National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at
intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx
Peter

It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more
sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is
accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and
residents for that matter) to understand.

At 10:05:11 on Tue, 6 Nov 2007 umpston opined:-

On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ianigsy" wrote

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.

Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the
National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though not at
intermediate stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx
Peter

It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more
sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is
accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and
residents for that matter) to understand.

I see that the Overground map in Ken's free newspaper The Londoner shows
not only Shepherd's Bush but also Imperial Wharf. Could lead to a lot
of confusion.
--
Thoss

"umpston" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 6, 5:53 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Ianigsy" wrote

This is the sort of thing which puts me off having one- to put things
into perspective, I live in Yorkshire and travel down to London
probably twice a year on average. I like the idea of not having to
queue at Kings Cross for a Travelcard (especially as Trainline et al
only seem to be able to sell Z1-2 ones as add-ons) and buy another one
every morning. Trouble is, when I come down in about ten days' time,
I may need to go to Walthamstow on the Sunday and the Victoria Line's
closed, so I'll have to use One from Liverpool Street instead- so I'll
presumably need a paper one that day and half the object of getting
one is defeated.

Liverpool Street - Walthamstow Central is one (no pun intended) of the
National Rail routes on which Oyster PAYG is already accepted (though
not at
intermediate
stations).http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx
Peter

It occurs to me that the 'Overground' network branding would make more
sense if it consisted of all non-LUL lines where Oyster PAYG is
accepted. This would be much easier for visitors to London (and
residents for that matter) to understand.

It would, but it would still be horrendously complicated, as there are
several routes where Oyster PAYG is accepted between specified points, but
not at intermediate stations.
As it is, if you have to make several journeys by bus and/or tube in a day,
Oyster PAYG is what you want, but add just one National Rail journey on
which Oyster PAYG is not accepted, and you need a paper ODTC - but if you
hold a Railcard you may want the paper ODTC anyway (but only at weekends if
it is a Network Card), even if you are not going to use National Rail.
Peter

On 6 Nov, 13:52, Ken wrote:


[1] Except between two "overground" stations that are also "tube"
stations, but this represents only a tiny fraction of NR train
journeys.

Not true. I frequently travel Manor House - Stratford via the NLL. I
have a z1-2 travelcard and (before PAYG) used my oyster + a paper
extension ticket. When PAYG came along I had understood it was OK to
swipe in/out (iirc the cost was the same).

However I was penalty fared about 2 months ago. I had a long argument
with a member of the PF staff (who didn't strike me as a LUL person
but I may be wrong). He told me *categorically* that you could not use
PAYG on *any* overground line (which is of course not true - I checked
and there were routes that were OK).

Very unhelpful and unnecessary. If you could buy train tickets at tube
stations things would be much better. Basically the whole tube system
is a blot on the UK public transport network. Having all these
stations refusing to issue through tickets to the rest of the rail
network seems amazingly old-fashioned.

Francis