Dead end
 

I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No Through
Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access". Every time I try
to figure out what that might mean, my head turns into a Moebius strip.

Whose job is it to decide which signs go where? Is it a
pay-peanuts-get-monkeys job, or has the chap got some qualification?

Dead end
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No Through
Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access". Every time I
try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns into a Moebius
strip.

Don't know the road myself - is it physically possible to drive in one end
and out of the other? Perhaps it means that you are only permitted to do
this if making a delivery or visiting a resident. Difficult to enforce
though.

--
David

Dead end
 

In article ,
says...
I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No Through
Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access". Every time I try
to figure out what that might mean, my head turns into a Moebius strip.

At a guess, the road turns into a road that's private and unadopted.

Whose job is it to decide which signs go where? Is it a
pay-peanuts-get-monkeys job, or has the chap got some qualification?

I suspect there are good ones and bad ones, same as anywhere else.
--
SAm.

Dead end
 

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:23:55 -0000, John Rowland put finger to
keyboard and typed:


I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No Through
Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access". Every time I try
to figure out what that might mean, my head turns into a Moebius strip.

That's not entirely stupid. Assuming you have something like this:

| |
A ------------------B----------------C
| |

where the lines are roads, then if the section B-C is "no vehicles
except for access", then at junction A it would be entirely true to
say that A-B is "no through road except for access", and at junction A
would be the sign you describe.

A typical situation where this might occur is where the section A-B is
a normal-sized road, suitable for all traffic, but between B and C it
becomes extremely narrow and/or twisty. Another situation would be
where B-C runs through a housing estate but A-B serves an industrial
estate just on the A side of B, and the authorities want to exclude
industrial estate traffic from the housing estate - forcing it to use
access A at all times - while still permitting residents of the
housing estate to enter and leave via either A or C.

Mark
--
Blog: http://Mark.Goodge.co.uk Photos: http://www.goodge.co.uk
"Emotions run deep as oceans"

Dead end
 

John Rowland wrote:
I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No
Through Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access".
Every time I try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns
into a Moebius strip.

According to Streetmap, when going west along Knapp Road, just after the
railway bridge, the road becomes Cantrell Road, but there's a line
across the road suggesting some sort of access restriction. Similarly
at the other end of Cantrell Road, where it meets Bow Common Lane, there
is another line across it. So I assume that Cantrell Road is
effectively pedestrianised except for access, with either some sort of
restricted-access barrier at each end or just No Motor Vehicles signs
with "except for access" plates.

If so, the No Through Road Except for Access sign is reasonably logical,
except that the only qualifying plate allowed on a No Through Road sign
is "except cycles". So it's either an unlawful sign or has special
permission from the DfT.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Dead end
 

"David Morgan" wrote in
message ...

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No Through
Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access". Every time I
try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns into a Moebius
strip.

Don't know the road myself - is it physically possible to drive in one end
and out of the other? Perhaps it means that you are only permitted to do
this if making a delivery or visiting a resident.

I know of some roads like this.

IIRC they aren't posted as a normal no through roads, but have signs that
make the exact rule clear.

Difficult to enforce though.

They just sit a plod at each end when they have nothing better to do.

tim

Dead end
 

David Morgan wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No Through
Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access". Every time I
try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns into a Moebius
strip.


Don't know the road myself - is it physically possible to drive in one end
and out of the other? Perhaps it means that you are only permitted to do
this if making a delivery or visiting a resident. Difficult to enforce
though.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Knapp+Rd,+Towe r+Hamlets,+London+E3,+United+Kingdom&sll=51.994087 ,-0.734502&sspn=0.079803,0.160675&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geoco de=0,51.521758,-0.020599&ll=51.521441,-0.020792&spn=0.01008,0.020084&z=16&om=1

Or:

http://tinyurl.com/37fq6x

Look at it in satellite mode at highest resolution.

It looks as though it should be a through route. If it's not, it must
have been artificially blocked with some of those concrete blocks the
council committee chairman's brother sells (allegedly).

Dead end
 

On Nov 14, 10:40 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No
Through Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access".
Every time I try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns
into a Moebius strip.

According to Streetmap, when going west along Knapp Road, just after the
railway bridge, the road becomes Cantrell Road, but there's a line
across the road suggesting some sort of access restriction. Similarly
at the other end of Cantrell Road, where it meets Bow Common Lane, there
is another line across it. So I assume that Cantrell Road is
effectively pedestrianised except for access, with either some sort of
restricted-access barrier at each end or just No Motor Vehicles signs
with "except for access" plates.

If so, the No Through Road Except for Access sign is reasonably logical,
except that the only qualifying plate allowed on a No Through Road sign
is "except cycles". So it's either an unlawful sign or has special
permission from the DfT.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

I think it must be a mistake since the DfT usually grant special
authorisation for variation of signs only if there is no existing
authorised sign or marking for the desired meaning. The correct sign
for this purpose would be the No Motor Vehicles (or no vehicles) signs
with 'except for access' plates. Or, if the width of the road is the
issue, "unsuitable for wide vehicles" could be used.

Dead end
 

umpston wrote:
On Nov 14, 10:40 pm, "Richard J."
wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No
Through Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access".
Every time I try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns
into a Moebius strip.

According to Streetmap, when going west along Knapp Road, just
after the railway bridge, the road becomes Cantrell Road, but
there's a line across the road suggesting some sort of access
restriction. Similarly at the other end of Cantrell Road, where
it meets Bow Common Lane, there is another line across it. So I
assume that Cantrell Road is effectively pedestrianised except for
access, with either some sort of restricted-access barrier at each
end or just No Motor Vehicles signs with "except for access"
plates.

If so, the No Through Road Except for Access sign is reasonably
logical, except that the only qualifying plate allowed on a No
Through Road sign is "except cycles". So it's either an unlawful
sign or has special permission from the DfT.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

I think it must be a mistake since the DfT usually grant special
authorisation for variation of signs only if there is no existing
authorised sign or marking for the desired meaning. The correct
sign for this purpose would be the No Motor Vehicles (or no
vehicles) signs with 'except for access' plates. Or, if the width
of the road is the issue, "unsuitable for wide vehicles" could be
used.

"No Motor Vehicles except for access" would be correct at the western
end of Knapp Road where the restriction starts, but not at the other
end, where just an advance warning is needed.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Dead end
 

On Nov 14, 9:23 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No Through
Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access". Every time I try
to figure out what that might mean, my head turns into a Moebius strip.

Whose job is it to decide which signs go where? Is it a
pay-peanuts-get-monkeys job, or has the chap got some qualification?

What happens if you do an AA route search from one end to the other?

Dead end
 

Offramp wrote:
On Nov 14, 9:23 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No
Through Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access".
Every time I try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns
into a Moebius strip.

Whose job is it to decide which signs go where? Is it a
pay-peanuts-get-monkeys job, or has the chap got some
qualification?

What happens if you do an AA route search from one end to the other?

As per the sign. A route from Knapp Road to Cantrell Road (using
postcodes to get accurate start and end points) is the straightforward
route through the gate or whatever the restriction is. But from Knapp
Road (E3 4BP) to Lockhart Street (E3 4BL), the AA takes you on a
circuitous route via Devons Road, and not the direct route via Cantrell
Road.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Dead end
 

On Nov 16, 8:21 am, "Richard J." wrote:
umpston wrote:
On Nov 14, 10:40 pm, "Richard J."
wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No
Through Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access".
Every time I try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns
into a Moebius strip.

According to Streetmap, when going west along Knapp Road, just
after the railway bridge, the road becomes Cantrell Road, but
there's a line across the road suggesting some sort of access
restriction. Similarly at the other end of Cantrell Road, where
it meets Bow Common Lane, there is another line across it. So I
assume that Cantrell Road is effectively pedestrianised except for
access, with either some sort of restricted-access barrier at each
end or just No Motor Vehicles signs with "except for access"
plates.

If so, the No Through Road Except for Access sign is reasonably
logical, except that the only qualifying plate allowed on a No
Through Road sign is "except cycles". So it's either an unlawful
sign or has special permission from the DfT.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

I think it must be a mistake since the DfT usually grant special
authorisation for variation of signs only if there is no existing
authorised sign or marking for the desired meaning. The correct
sign for this purpose would be the No Motor Vehicles (or no
vehicles) signs with 'except for access' plates. Or, if the width
of the road is the issue, "unsuitable for wide vehicles" could be
used.

"No Motor Vehicles except for access" would be correct at the western
end of Knapp Road where the restriction starts, but not at the other
end, where just an advance warning is needed.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

I do not know this location - I was simply suggesting the correct
alternatives to convey the possible meanings of the incorrect sign.

Dead end
 

I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No Through
Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access". Every time I try
to figure out what that might mean, my head turns into a Moebius strip.

Whose job is it to decide which signs go where? Is it a
pay-peanuts-get-monkeys job, or has the chap got some qualification?

Deer John Lowrand,

I know what you meen. Wear I liv thear is this one wey road that is
also a sul-de-cac
and cars keap misteriosly draiving into it but never cumming out
again.

Love form Edugov

Dead end
 

Edugov wrote:
I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No
Through Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access".
Every time I try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns
into a Moebius strip.

Whose job is it to decide which signs go where? Is it a
pay-peanuts-get-monkeys job, or has the chap got some qualification?

Deer John Lowrand,

I know what you meen. Wear I liv thear is this one wey road that is
also a sul-de-cac
and cars keap misteriosly draiving into it but never cumming out
again.

That's the way teachers felt while they taught you.

Dead end
 

Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:23:55 -0000, John Rowland put finger to
keyboard and typed:


I found a road today (Knapp Road E3) with a standard T-shaped "No
Through Road" sign, and underneath were the words "Except Access".
Every time I try to figure out what that might mean, my head turns
into a Moebius strip.

That's not entirely stupid. Assuming you have something like this:

| |
A ------------------B----------------C
| |

where the lines are roads, then if the section B-C is "no vehicles
except for access", then at junction A it would be entirely true to
say that A-B is "no through road except for access", and at junction A
would be the sign you describe.

A typical situation where this might occur is where the section A-B is
a normal-sized road, suitable for all traffic, but between B and C it
becomes extremely narrow and/or twisty. Another situation would be
where B-C runs through a housing estate but A-B serves an industrial
estate just on the A side of B, and the authorities want to exclude
industrial estate traffic from the housing estate - forcing it to use
access A at all times - while still permitting residents of the
housing estate to enter and leave via either A or C.

That's very clever - I never thought of that. I thought the sign was absurd
because "Access only" means "You aren't allowed here unless your journey is
terminating here", and "Dead end" means "This road is only useful if your
journey is terminating here", so "Dead end except access" means "This road
is only useful if your journey is terminating here, unless your journey is
terminating here, in which case this road is useful for journeys which
aren't terminating here". But your example does seem to defeat my "logic".

I finally got around to checking the other end. Cantrell Road has closed
gates on both ends which could theoretically be opened, but there are no
properties on the road apart from a yard at the east end. Presumably only
the yard staff have keys for either side. All in all, the sign still seems
strange - since the yard staff presumably know that their yard can be
accessed from either side, a simple "Dead End" sign would tell everyone else
all they need to know. After all, if a premises such as a bus garage or
industrial estate had entrances onto two separate dead-end roads, that
wouldn't stop the roads from being signed as dead end roads, and the only
difference between that situation and this one is that Cantrell Road is
presumably owned by the council and physically blocked, whereas the bus
garage or industrial estate would be private and physically unblocked.